Anglican bishop lays mitre, crozier at our lady?s feet as he leaves for ordinariate [ewtn]

[JohnnyReb]

I actually do know all this, Meghan, but I sure appreciate your talking to your friend and inquiring. It’s good to review the reality of the Reformation sometimes. I’m really in the middle of trying to understand how I view so many things about my faith. I’m not sure whether I believe in infusion of grace or imputation. Reading Paul/Galatians/Romans I sure tend toward the Protestant view. My views on the Atonement are definitely Western and are substitutionary. I don’t buy the Christus Victor/Orthodox views for a minute honestly. I’m too Augustinian for them!

I think you touched on an important point though. If we are saved through an imputation of grace, then confession becomes more in the Martin Luther vein of things. Luther believed that the absolution we hear at confession is just a declaration of what God has already done for a contrite sinner. It’s just a verbal reassurance, an oral declaration of a completed act in Heaven. I think the Anglicans view it in a similar light. The Catholics see it from a totally different vantage point.

What is your view of what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about infusion and sanctification and justification being part of the same process and that salvation is a process in stages of infusion? I’d like your take, Meghan.

I know you’re addressing Bluegoat, but do you mind if I give my two cents as well? I annoy after this you might want to get on a plane and travel 3000 miles just to choke me, but here goes…

It seems to me that the Catholic view seems to confuse justification and sanctification. For me, they are two seperate processes or works of grace from the Holy Spirit. Some Protestants make this mistaken too, but to the other extreme. For them, once we are declared justified, thats all that matters, and we are sanctified only in the sense that we are seen as holy in God’s sight. Our righteousness or holiness is positional/legal/forensic in nature only, not actual or transformative.

My views are very Wesleyan. I recommend that you study John Wesley’s works a little, especially about sanctification, if you have not already. John Wesley was an Anglican, but influenced by a blend of reformed Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox views. He is very underrated as a theologian IMO.

Wesley held to a typically Protestant view of justification (forensic/legal/substitutionary in nature), but held that sanctification was a seperate work apart form justification, and this is where his views are more influenced by a Christus Victor view of the atonement. It was by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that Christians could be transformed to be like Christ. The major debate in Wesleyan circles is if this work of sanctification is a seperate, one time event apart from justification that empowers the believer to love God, and love others completely, or if it is a progressive work. I lean to the progressive side, but I do realize that Wesley’s views force us to take Christ’s commands to love God and love our neighbor seriously.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Johnny. Your post is by no means offensive or irritating in the slightest so don’t expect me to get a plane ticket and a choking collar ready for you fitted any time soon

I think most Protestants in Anglican circles, particularly my rector, view justification as taking place in our baptism and acceptance of Christ as saviour. It’s not that it’s just a one time deal. We can lose our faith and thus our justification. But sanctification flows from justification. Sanctification is the spawn of justification, not the reverse. Catholicism intermingles them. And in my reading of Scripture, especially the Pauline face of Scripture, sanctification seems to flow from justification and justification seems to not be in pieces but in our baptism and faith. Paul talks about faith vs. the Law so much that it cannot just be as guys like Jimmy Akin seem to opine that it’s just Torah he’s speaking of. Paul seems to be speaking holistically about all of the Jewish Law, not just straining gnats, circumcision, and the ritualistic side but also the rules and behavior aspects as well. The Law might as well be any behavioral code it seems. Trying to live up to anyone’s standards to please God is a losing proposition. We cannot earn Christ even through His help and guidance. We must live by faith. We follow his Way and the Gospel out of love for the salvation we’ve been given, not because we fear we’ll lose it or because we think we need to add our works to His Cross to get from point A to point B. We do it out of love. God loves us as His children.

It seems that the Protestant ideal is a mature one. God knows His children are flawed. Scripture tells us NOT ONE is righteous or holy or good in God’s eyes. All are sinners. The wages of sin is death. And to break the least of the Law is to break it all. So to go back to a paradigm of trying to put our good works as a measuring stick with God’s self-giving grace is something I’m having a tough time buying.

Coincidentally since I have been Anglican and have been more of a mind to accept imputation, several of the sins I have struggled with for years and years have diminished more than ever and I’m operating out of a “thank you!” to God and feel more open to sanctification than when I was going to confession every two weeks and living the walk of the penitent, guilt-laden type. I think sanctification grows out of a mature walk and appreciation for God, not a sense of earning salvation or proving something with works.

I guess I’m still too 39 Articles in my thinking

I could be COMPLETELY WRONG about this all. I note that almost all the folks in here with whom I talk are infusion-minded, even the Anglicans, and lean more Catholic than I do in this issue. I’m in a minority feeling tempted by imputation.

I know you’re addressing Bluegoat, but do you mind if I give my two cents as well? I annoy after this you might want to get on a plane and travel 3000 miles just to choke me, but here goes…

It seems to me that the Catholic view seems to confuse justification and sanctification. For me, they are two seperate processes or works of grace from the Holy Spirit. Some Protestants make this mistaken too, but to the other extreme. For them, once we are declared justified, thats all that matters, and we are sanctified only in the sense that we are seen as holy in God’s sight. Our righteousness or holiness is positional/legal/forensic in nature only, not actual or transformative.

My views are very Wesleyan. I recommend that you study John Wesley’s works a little, especially about sanctification, if you have not already. John Wesley was an Anglican, but influenced by a blend of reformed Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox views. He is very underrated as a theologian IMO.

Wesley held to a typically Protestant view of justification (forensic/legal/substitutionary in nature), but held that sanctification was a seperate work apart form justification, and this is where his views are more influenced by a Christus Victor view of the atonement. It was by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that Christians could be transformed to be like Christ. The major debate in Wesleyan circles is if this work of sanctification is a seperate, one time event apart from justification that empowers the believer to love God, and love others completely, or if it is a progressive work. I lean to the progressive side, but I do realize that Wesley’s views force us to take Christ’s commands to love God and love our neighbor seriously.

 

[Bluegoat]

I actually do know all this, Meghan, but I sure appreciate your talking to your friend and inquiring. It’s good to review the reality of the Reformation sometimes. I’m really in the middle of trying to understand how I view so many things about my faith. I’m not sure whether I believe in infusion of grace or imputation. Reading Paul/Galatians/Romans I sure tend toward the Protestant view. My views on the Atonement are definitely Western and are substitutionary. I don’t buy the Christus Victor/Orthodox views for a minute honestly. I’m too Augustinian for them!

I think you touched on an important point though. If we are saved through an imputation of grace, then confession becomes more in the Martin Luther vein of things. Luther believed that the absolution we hear at confession is just a declaration of what God has already done for a contrite sinner. It’s just a verbal reassurance, an oral declaration of a completed act in Heaven. I think the Anglicans view it in a similar light. The Catholics see it from a totally different vantage point.

What is your view of what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about infusion and sanctification and justification being part of the same process and that salvation is a process in stages of infusion? I’d like your take, Meghan.

I’d never read the CCC on this subject, so I’ve just done so now. But I wouldn’t say my thoughts on it are mature, so you have to promise not to hold me to them too much! I am also not used to using the language they are - I tend to explain it in my own words, so if I’m unclear or it seems like I am saying something really weird let me know and I’ll try to clarify.

I am very much with them in the idea that our relationship with God is an ongoing one - as I’m sure you’d guess I don’t have much truck with the idea that our justification by faith is a one time event from our POV.

When we sin, I think we have chosen untruth, and in a way become poisoned by it. I think this has separated not only ourselves from God, but all of humanity, and all of creation, because we all participate in human nature, in animal nature, and so on. Maybe even the angels are involved, in that we are all created - there seems to me to be some indication in Genesis of this. In any case, our character has become deformed in some way and no longer united to God. However, we are by our nature God’s creatures, and beings with an immortal souls, and that is just a fact about ourselves that we can’t escape. We are in a way joined to him still, always seeking him, and only half-dead. That connection, even before we turn to him, is a reality of his Grace.

Grace also reconnects and regenerates us through the incarnation, where our deformed nature is healed. In baptism (and possibly other ways, who knows?) we become properly joined to this healed human nature, and we become able to receive grace more constantly and more clearly because of that.

At the same time, our free choice toward God is not a one time thing, but something that we do in each moment in both our thoughts and actions. And as we choose God, we are able to choose God more and more, and as we choose not-God, it can become more and more difficult to choose him. Our goal ultimately is to choose only God, so that we become suffused with him.

Re imputation and infusion:

I would say that we are to be like a window. To transmit the light clearly the panes need to be properly made, and also clean - otherwise the light passing through is distorted. The light is God’s, but it is our nature, as given by God, that we are windows.

Merit - honestly this aspect leaves me a bit I don’t quite get it - what does merit have to do with anything? The CCC says this:

Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.

And I think I am fine with that. It then goes on to say:

Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

I am not so sure about that. I think our actions do aid our sanctification, in the sense our journey to fully transmit the light of God with everything that we are and do. And I guess we are the ones that make the choices that take us closer to that. But to use the term merit seems really weird to me in this context. Do I deserve graces because on account of my actions? I would say that my actions are in a way the graces themselves.

I am not very clear on this last bit as you can probably tell. But I don’t like the idea of merit much, either in the sense that we earn it, or in the sense that it is given to us. It seems too much like something that is separate from us.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This reply is mostly to Blue Goat

I would say that, and I might be wrong (God knows it wouldn’t be the first time!) that Catholicism seems to teach a system of justification through maintenance. Catholics and Protestants agree that salvation comes from CHRIST, period. He gives us our baptism and grace that ignites a spark. Protestants view the faith acceptance as the salvation in a nutshell where Catholics seem to view it as a giant keg of liquid salvation. We are just expected not to SPILL IT! And our lives are like a crowded ballroom full of ballroom dancing and we’re expected to carry this heavy keg of forgiveness and not spill it. It’s about not spilling the wine! We spill it and we have to walk all the way back to the kitchen and have God fill it back up (confession/reconciliation). It seems like a maintaining approach and that as we walk with the liquid it splashes on us and we are changed. The Protestants seem to believe in a covering, walking with a sheet of God over them. It’s hard to choose which one makes more sense.

I agree that sanctification is huge, part of our Christian walk, and so do the Protestants. They believe in sanctification but not that sanctification saves. They see it as a result of a mature walk. I think the Protestant position points toward maturity. What I mean is, let’s take my dad and I and our relationship. My dad has been good to me growing up. He was always there for me with school, emotional needs, loved me, put clothes on my back and food on the table, always told me he loved me, never put up with my nonsense, was a loving, caring, thoughtful dad. So, should I do good things for my dad because I love him and he deserves my kindness and respect or should I do good works for him and be there for him because I’m scared of losing his respect or because I won’t get an inheritence? Which one is more mature? Do we love out of fear and out of the desire for extrinsic reward or do we love because it’s natural and it’s a reaction and intrinsic to us to thank and follow those who bless us?

And do our parents place conditions on us and our love? If I do something to hurt my mom’s feelings before I die, does she remember me with contempt? Mortal sin I’m not sure about because I could live a wonderful, good, decent life of charity, selflessness, and passionate Christian belief but right before I’m in a car wreck I go and do something sinful and it’s all blotted. If I do it with full knowledge it was wrong and it’s something serious like say, masturbation, pornography, stealing something from work, lying to someone, etc.then my salvation is doomed. I died in mortal sin. I’m not sure about that…

Like I said, I’m finding my way with all this. I’m openly a seeker and I don’t have all the answers or this firm and unbending position pounding my fists on the table trying to convert others to my thinking. My faith in Christ is unquestionable and firm. But imputation/infusion and grace/sanctification, etc. are toughies for me!

 

[Bluegoat]

This reply is mostly to Blue Goat

I would say that, and I might be wrong (God knows it wouldn’t be the first time!) that Catholicism seems to teach a system of justification through maintenance. Catholics and Protestants agree that salvation comes from CHRIST, period. He gives us our baptism and grace that ignites a spark. Protestants view the faith acceptance as the salvation in a nutshell where Catholics seem to view it as a giant keg of liquid salvation. We are just expected not to SPILL IT! And our lives are like a crowded ballroom full of ballroom dancing and we’re expected to carry this heavy keg of forgiveness and not spill it. It’s about not spilling the wine! We spill it and we have to walk all the way back to the kitchen and have God fill it back up (confession/reconciliation). It seems like a maintaining approach and that as we walk with the liquid it splashes on us and we are changed. The Protestants seem to believe in a covering, walking with a sheet of God over them. It’s hard to choose which one makes more sense.

I agree that sanctification is huge, part of our Christian walk, and so do the Protestants. They believe in sanctification but not that sanctification saves. They see it as a result of a mature walk. I think the Protestant position points toward maturity. What I mean is, let’s take my dad and I and our relationship. My dad has been good to me growing up. He was always there for me with school, emotional needs, loved me, put clothes on my back and food on the table, always told me he loved me, never put up with my nonsense, was a loving, caring, thoughtful dad. So, should I do good things for my dad because I love him and he deserves my kindness and respect or should I do good works for him and be there for him because I’m scared of losing his respect or because I won’t get an inheritence? Which one is more mature? Do we love out of fear and out of the desire for extrinsic reward or do we love because it’s natural and it’s a reaction and intrinsic to us to thank and follow those who bless us?

And do our parents place conditions on us and our love? If I do something to hurt my mom’s feelings before I die, does she remember me with contempt? Mortal sin I’m not sure about because I could live a wonderful, good, decent life of charity, selflessness, and passionate Christian belief but right before I’m in a car wreck I go and do something sinful and it’s all blotted. If I do it with full knowledge it was wrong and it’s something serious like say, masturbation, pornography, stealing something from work, lying to someone, etc.then my salvation is doomed. I died in mortal sin. I’m not sure about that…

Like I said, I’m finding my way with all this. I’m openly a seeker and I don’t have all the answers or this firm and unbending position pounding my fists on the table trying to convert others to my thinking. My faith in Christ is unquestionable and firm. But imputation/infusion and grace/sanctification, etc. are toughies for me!

I am pretty sure the Orthodox would say we are creating artificial divisions of some kind with such questions.

Tell me, what do you think of the image of Jacob’s Ladder?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Please elaborate for me here…on both statements

I am pretty sure the Orthodox would say we are creating artificial divisions of some kind with such questions.

Tell me, what do you think of the image of Jacob’s Ladder?

 

[Bluegoat]

Please elaborate for me here…on both statements

On the former - in my experience the Orthodox generally resist separating the ideas of faith vs works, or imputation vs infusion, and feel this is rather like trying to separate the soul and body. They don’t accept the duality of terms, and would say both, or neither. So I am curious how they would approach the imputation or infusion question. I suspect their view would be closer to infusion, but at they same time they really reject the idea of merit.

So I guess my first question really means - maybe the West is asking the wrong question here, and dividing things that are meant to be whole?

The second. So the image is here

"And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it! "

Typically in the Church the ladder has been described as a kind of image of theosis or sanctification, where individual souls make their way to God , and with Christ himself as the ladder.

It just struck me as an image that might be pertinent to the question.

I did rather like your wine jug idea. That does seem to be how some Catholics take it, however correct or not that is. (I am always stunned by the “is this a mortal sin” threads I see.) If I were to use that image, one correction I would make is that we ARE the barrels of wine. There might be others as well.

 

[Hesychios]

http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/47/46577/jacobldrebay.jpg

Coptic

http://www.bethel-ucity.org/images/0110-0978a.jpg


Ladder of Divine Ascent of St John Climacus

 

[Bluegoat]

Very nice illustrations!

I had a thought that may or may not be useful regarding the Anglican attitude toward confession. I don’t know if it is the case in the modern American BCP, because it is changed in the Canadian book, but in the older BCPs confession is not its own rite or service at all. It is part of the service for laying on of hands in sickness. When someone uses confession, they take that section from that service. I think that may give some insight into why it exists without being considered necessary for all - in the same way we do not always consider prayers and laying on of hands in a physical illness to be necessary.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

If you don’t mind me asking, Meghan, what is YOUR view on the necessity of confession. If an Anglican, like in the illustration I gave, looked at pornography, for example, and sinned, would you think that the absolution given at the service would suffice or confession needed? Or what about something “harder” like pre-marital sex? Would you classify sins as mortal and venial etc. like Catholics or in degrees of severity where you, as an Anglican, would partake of confession? I am just curious as I like to hear different perspectives to help me in my own journey.

Very nice illustrations!

I had a thought that may or may not be useful regarding the Anglican attitude toward confession. I don’t know if it is the case in the modern American BCP, because it is changed in the Canadian book, but in the older BCPs confession is not its own rite or service at all. It is part of the service for laying on of hands in sickness. When someone uses confession, they take that section from that service. I think that may give some insight into why it exists without being considered necessary for all - in the same way we do not always consider prayers and laying on of hands in a physical illness to be necessary.

 

[Bluegoat]

If you don’t mind me asking, Meghan, what is YOUR view on the necessity of confession. If an Anglican, like in the illustration I gave, looked at pornography, for example, and sinned, would you think that the absolution given at the service would suffice or confession needed? Or what about something “harder” like pre-marital sex? Would you classify sins as mortal and venial etc. like Catholics or in degrees of severity where you, as an Anglican, would partake of confession? I am just curious as I like to hear different perspectives to help me in my own journey.

I don’t think of sins in the categories of mortal and venial. I don’t really find that helpful really - it seems to me that something that might be venial to one person or in one situation might be mortal in another, and vice versa. I do think some sinss are more serious than others, and that habitual sins are more serious. A real pornography habit might be a lot more serious that pre-marital sex with your fiance, for example.

As far as what is enough - I guess the question is what is confession and repentance supposed to accomplish? God forgives us. But we can’t really take advantage of that or access it unless we can see what we need forgiveness for. So first we need to be able to really clearly name our besetting sins. We need to be able to really understand that we are forgiven. And we may also need counsel to help us move forward in our Christian journey with regard to the sin. (I understand that isn’t part of the Catholic model, but I think it’s really important, and it is part of the Eastern model.)

I think the biggest problem is with number one - it is really easy to begin to rely on a kind of amorphous declaration that we have sinned, without really clearly facing how. If we have fallen into that habit, private confession might be a good idea. Some people might have trouble with the second part too - with feeling forgiven, and not being able to let things go.

One interesting thing I have noted about the difference I see in attitude between Catholics compared to both Anglicans and the Orthodox is that in the latter I have never observed anything like the degree of problems some Catholics seem to have with scrupulosity. I know it isn’t wholly absent, but the numbers and degree of the problem seems less. That seems to be a real danger of the Catholic approach.

Personally, I am embarrassed to say I do not put my money where my mouth is and I have never been to confession. I am such an introvert, I can barely talk to my doctor about even non-embarrassing issues. I have learned to mentally trick myself into doing most of these things if they are good for me, but because the Anglicans emphasize it so little, I have never figured out a way to manage it. But I should - maybe I will ask my friend’s dad - he’s about the most reassuring guy I can think of for such a thing.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I had to laugh at your doctor comment, the fear to ask or say embarrassing things medically, etc. When Kate and I first got married, she kept getting bladder infections. I went with her to the doctor and I’ll never forget, he looked at both of us, an elderly gentleman this doctor, Dr. Kleyn, and he asked, “have you both been having sexual intercourse lately? When is the last time you both had sex?” We both turned red as a beet and we could scarcely open our mouths. I was mortified! We answered him and he said, “oh well that’s it. After your’re finished, do you…” I won’t continue, suffice it to say, my wife and I about DIED that day LOL…I hate that stuff, too!

I don’t think of sins in the categories of mortal and venial. I don’t really find that helpful really - it seems to me that something that might be venial to one person or in one situation might be mortal in another, and vice versa. I do think some sinss are more serious than others, and that habitual sins are more serious. A real pornography habit might be a lot more serious that pre-marital sex with your fiance, for example.

As far as what is enough - I guess the question is what is confession and repentance supposed to accomplish? God forgives us. But we can’t really take advantage of that or access it unless we can see what we need forgiveness for. So first we need to be able to really clearly name our besetting sins. We need to be able to really understand that we are forgiven. And we may also need counsel to help us move forward in our Christian journey with regard to the sin. (I understand that isn’t part of the Catholic model, but I think it’s really important, and it is part of the Eastern model.)

I think the biggest problem is with number one - it is really easy to begin to rely on a kind of amorphous declaration that we have sinned, without really clearly facing how. If we have fallen into that habit, private confession might be a good idea. Some people might have trouble with the second part too - with feeling forgiven, and not being able to let things go.

One interesting thing I have noted about the difference I see in attitude between Catholics compared to both Anglicans and the Orthodox is that in the latter I have never observed anything like the degree of problems some Catholics seem to have with scrupulosity. I know it isn’t wholly absent, but the numbers and degree of the problem seems less. That seems to be a real danger of the Catholic approach.

Personally, I am embarrassed to say I do not put my money where my mouth is and I have never been to confession. I am such an introvert, I can barely talk to my doctor about even non-embarrassing issues. I have learned to mentally trick myself into doing most of these things if they are good for me, but because the Anglicans emphasize it so little, I have never figured out a way to manage it. But I should - maybe I will ask my friend’s dad - he’s about the most reassuring guy I can think of for such a thing.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In so many of your posts you reference the Orthodox and put a lot of stock and credibility into what they believe. You seem to greatly admire them, as does your rector if memory serves, and you’ve pondered conversion no doubt. If you don’t mind me asking this, why don’t you convert to Orthodoxy, Meghan? You seem like a super candidate for it? But honestly you need to start going to confession if you want to sign up with 'em If it’s too personal a question feel free not to answer or to IM. I don’t want to step on toes.

Jury’s sure still out with me! My wife is so dang easy-going she’ll go with whatever I choose and she doesn’t see why I ponder, analyze, and question things so much. She’s happy as an Anglican despite growing up in the Philippines a Catholic her whole life. She is fried on Catholicism but mostly for reasons that aren’t so theological. My wife is far simpler, and a whole lot happier, than me because she doesn’t dig so blasted deep and ask so many dang questions!

I don’t think of sins in the categories of mortal and venial. I don’t really find that helpful really - it seems to me that something that might be venial to one person or in one situation might be mortal in another, and vice versa. I do think some sinss are more serious than others, and that habitual sins are more serious. A real pornography habit might be a lot more serious that pre-marital sex with your fiance, for example.

As far as what is enough - I guess the question is what is confession and repentance supposed to accomplish? God forgives us. But we can’t really take advantage of that or access it unless we can see what we need forgiveness for. So first we need to be able to really clearly name our besetting sins. We need to be able to really understand that we are forgiven. And we may also need counsel to help us move forward in our Christian journey with regard to the sin. (I understand that isn’t part of the Catholic model, but I think it’s really important, and it is part of the Eastern model.)

I think the biggest problem is with number one - it is really easy to begin to rely on a kind of amorphous declaration that we have sinned, without really clearly facing how. If we have fallen into that habit, private confession might be a good idea. Some people might have trouble with the second part too - with feeling forgiven, and not being able to let things go.

One interesting thing I have noted about the difference I see in attitude between Catholics compared to both Anglicans and the Orthodox is that in the latter I have never observed anything like the degree of problems some Catholics seem to have with scrupulosity. I know it isn’t wholly absent, but the numbers and degree of the problem seems less. That seems to be a real danger of the Catholic approach.

Personally, I am embarrassed to say I do not put my money where my mouth is and I have never been to confession. I am such an introvert, I can barely talk to my doctor about even non-embarrassing issues. I have learned to mentally trick myself into doing most of these things if they are good for me, but because the Anglicans emphasize it so little, I have never figured out a way to manage it. But I should - maybe I will ask my friend’s dad - he’s about the most reassuring guy I can think of for such a thing.

 

[Hesychios]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

http://media.patheos.com/Images/MLPPT/MLPPT_PhariseeTax_1.jpg

http://www.oca.org/Images/QA/framedpics/confession.jpg

http://ocaphoto.oca.org/filetmp/2004/August/92/Detail/DSC_0013.jpg

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Is this an Orthodoxy propaganda recruitment campaign here?

http://dialogues.stjohndfw.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/distorted-mirror.jpg

http://media.patheos.com/Images/MLPPT/MLPPT_PhariseeTax_1.jpg

http://www.oca.org/Images/QA/framedpics/confession.jpg

http://ocaphoto.oca.org/filetmp/2004/August/92/Detail/DSC_0013.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/4254220834_a2420ac594.jpg

 

[Bluegoat]

In so many of your posts you reference the Orthodox and put a lot of stock and credibility into what they believe. You seem to greatly admire them, as does your rector if memory serves, and you’ve pondered conversion no doubt. If you don’t mind me asking this, why don’t you convert to Orthodoxy, Meghan? You seem like a super candidate for it? But honestly you need to start going to confession if you want to sign up with 'em If it’s too personal a question feel free not to answer or to IM. I don’t want to step on toes.

Jury’s sure still out with me! My wife is so dang easy-going she’ll go with whatever I choose and she doesn’t see why I ponder, analyze, and question things so much. She’s happy as an Anglican despite growing up in the Philippines a Catholic her whole life. She is fried on Catholicism but mostly for reasons that aren’t so theological. My wife is far simpler, and a whole lot happier, than me because she doesn’t dig so blasted deep and ask so many dang questions!

Hee hee about the doctor! I once had a very similar experience with an army medic. Very mortifying.

I have seriously considered conversion to Orthodoxy. My husband isn’t keen though. His reasons are really reasonable - he’s really only been a Christian about 7 years, and he has rather randomly found himself as an Anglican, and he figures he should stay there for now. We’ve been in our parish for about a year, and it’s the first time he;s been in a really good doctrinally solid parish. I asked him one day what he thought about a particular East/West controversy, and he said he didn’t even know that it was a point of discussion, so he really had no opinion.

If we didn’t have kids maybe we’d go separately, but we are in a very orthodox Anglican parish and so for now I think it’s better for them if we are together in a good place. I tend to think that within the next five years things in the Anglican Church of Canada will go one way or another, and either my husband and I will have to make a decision to leave, or our whole parish will have to make a decision, in which case I’d like to give my (name removed by moderator)ut.

I am thinking of starting to attend Vespers at the Orthodox Church Sat nights. My husband’s been away since October and there is no way I could go with all the kids, but when he’s home in the new year I think I will.

 

[Hesychios]

Is this an Orthodoxy propaganda recruitment campaign here?

I think one should avail oneself of a good confession, if at all possible.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well I’m most likely on my way back to Rome. I just feel out of place despite the kindness shown to me at the Anglican parish where I attend. It’s really hard. My children, my wife, they just love the Anglican church. I feel really odd cut off from the papacy. I guess at the core of my intellect is just a simple faith. I can tell myself I’m a rebel and that I disagree with some things and that I can identify with non-Catholic entities but I always end up defending the papacy with my rector when we have discussions about theology. At my core I just don’t feel the pope can err and that the Catholic Church is protected from error. Maybe the problem is with me and I need to just suck it up and get back to faith. In the end it’s all about faith. We can try to intellectually rationalize this and that, use history to paint eloquent debates and arguments in here and proof text or use Fathers or councils or whatever to try and win and frame arguments but ultimately, in the end, it boils down to faith. Do you believe x, y, or z? I think at my core I trust the papacy and feel Matthew 16:18 is what the Church says it is. I will not stop struggling with many of the “particulars” as GKC calls them, even if I go back. I just need to trust and have faith I suppose. I’m just not totally comfortable as an Anglican and despite the MANY lousy experiences at my Catholic parish here, a parish I honestly don’t like ONE iota, the Catholic religion is closer to my heart than any other. So it’s highly possible we’ll return there.

But it just seems every week things get harder. We’ll make a new friend at the Anglican parish or like today, my kids played shepherds, angels, and sheep in the Christmas play at Mass, and you get closer to other parishoners and their kids, etc. and it gets harder to walk away. What a tough journey this has been.

I envy you, Michael, that you found a firm spiritual home that you not only have FAITH in, but that you defend theologically and enjoy so much. I’m glad you are edified by Orthodoxy. God bless you this Christmas!

I think one should avail oneself of a good confession, if at all possible.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Is your husband deployed right now? Are you both in the military? I think I asked on another thread but never read your answer.

Hee hee about the doctor! I once had a very similar experience with an army medic. Very mortifying.

I have seriously considered conversion to Orthodoxy. My husband isn’t keen though. His reasons are really reasonable - he’s really only been a Christian about 7 years, and he has rather randomly found himself as an Anglican, and he figures he should stay there for now. We’ve been in our parish for about a year, and it’s the first time he;s been in a really good doctrinally solid parish. I asked him one day what he thought about a particular East/West controversy, and he said he didn’t even know that it was a point of discussion, so he really had no opinion.

If we didn’t have kids maybe we’d go separately, but we are in a very orthodox Anglican parish and so for now I think it’s better for them if we are together in a good place. I tend to think that within the next five years things in the Anglican Church of Canada will go one way or another, and either my husband and I will have to make a decision to leave, or our whole parish will have to make a decision, in which case I’d like to give my (name removed by moderator)ut.

I am thinking of starting to attend Vespers at the Orthodox Church Sat nights. My husband’s been away since October and there is no way I could go with all the kids, but when he’s home in the new year I think I will.

 

[Bluegoat]

Is your husband deployed right now? Are you both in the military? I think I asked on another thread but never read your answer.

I was a reservist for 10 years - I retired when my youngest was born. My husband used to be in the military, but now he works on a remote island at a weather station. He is on a 3 months on 3 off schedule.