Anglican Catholic Church?

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I know you think that you have provided me with some kind of gotcha-moment, but what you have actually done is to reveal your own ignorance on the matter. Note what I wrote:

What you then end up doing is to make my point for me. Because it is quite obvious that you are writing from the presumptions of West Germanic languages (which include German, English, Scots, Dutch, Afrikaans, the Frisian languages, Low Saxon languages and, to some extent, Yiddish). And from these languages, you write from the presumption of English.

The problems with this is quite obvious. In West Germanic languages, it is common to capitalise nouns, and sometimes adjectives (in the case of, IIRC, English, Scots, and the Frisian languages). Examples of the latter are adjectives like American or Catholic. Note that this is not the case in German, where the equivalents of these are amerikanisch and katholisch.

Now, in Norwegian, which is a North Germanic language, we do not have that kind of capitalisation, for neither adjectives nor nouns (unless the noun in question is a place or a name). We therefore say Norge (Norway), Bergen (a Norwegian city) and John, but we also say Jehovas vitner (Jehovah’s Witnesses, where Jehova is capitalised, because it is a name), Den norske kirke (the Church of Norway) and Den romersk-katolske kirke (the Roman Catholic Church, or Den katolske kirke as they use).

We see the same in Greek. In the Greek New Testament, if the word God appears in the middle of a sentence, it is written θεός, not Θεός. And, most importantly, we also see this in Latin, where there originally was no lower-case/upper-case distinction, but where one started to use upper class in names and places, but not adjectives and nouns in general. (In some ancient documents, we see capitalisation, but that often reflects the writer, or copier’s native tongue.)

Consider, for example, the Te igitur (the first prayer of the Roman Canon, following the sanctus). In english, it says (from this version, p.635):

To you therefore, most merciful Father, we make humble prayer and petition through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord: that you accept and bless + these gifts, these offerings, these holy and unblemished sacrifices, which we offer you firstly for your holy catholic Church. Be pleased to grant her peace, to guard, unite and govern her throughout the whole world, together with your servant N. our Pope and N. our Bishop, and all those who, holding to the truth, hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.

Note that this English version faithfully preserves the capitalisation of the Latin text: …in primis, quæ tibi offerimus pro Ecclesia tua sancta catholica… (“…which we offer you firstly for your holy catholic Church”…). And note that Catholic (or catholic) IS an adjective, which is quite obvious in both German and Latin: Die römisch-katholische Kirche and Ecclesia catholica.

So yes, there might be some kind of difference between Catholic and catholic in English, but that distinction is purely one of style, not of meaning. And there is no such distinction is Norwegian or Latin, or even in German. And last time I checked, Latin, not English, was the official language of the Roman Catholic Church.

So no, you won’t come far with your argument.
All of the above, while interesting, is a nonsequitur, Kj.

If you really believe that capitalizations are of no great import in expressing our ideas, I challenge you to go ahead and change your religion to Jehovah’s Witness on your profile. It would be as true as if you were saying you are a Jehovah’s witness.

Will you do it?

No.

Why?

Because you understand that there is a big difference–HUGE–between saying you’re a Jehovah’s witness and a Jehovah’s Witness.

I am a Jehovah’s witness. But not a JW.

And the distinction is made by…

wait for it…
wait for it…

the use of…

CAPITALS! 🙂
 
In Greek there is not. There is in Norwegian, but in Norwegian, ‘God’ is considered a name.
Greek?

Who’s speaking Greek here.

We’re talking English. And the importance of capitals making great distinctions.

You can use the word “catholic”, in English, as much as you like to describe yourself.

You may not use the word “Catholic”, in English, to describe yourself.

There is no such thing as a subset of Catholics, in English, who get to profess their own views on the supremacy of the pope.

That’s as absurd as a Catholic professing that she is a Mary Worshipper. A Maryolatry Catholic.

Or as a NonTrinitarian Lutheran.

#nosuchthing
 
His beliefs on the papacy are what’s important here.

You need to offer something which shows he was in the same position as those of you who wish to be called Catholic yet refuse to be subject to the successor of Peter.
Sure. I think I already have done. It’s as follows:
  1. St. Gregory lived and died outside of the communion of the Roman Church.
  2. From this it can be inferred that he did not hold the dogmas concerning the Roman Pontiff (otherwise he wouldn’t have so lived and died).
  3. St. Gregory is both a saint recognised in the Roman Martyrology, and a Doctor of the Universal Church.
  4. The first attests to his sanctity, but the latter specifically to his Catholic orthodoxy.
  5. Therefore we have an example of an orthodox Catholic outside the Roman Communion.
As far as I can see, you can’t logically or historically challenege 1 or 2 without some evidence which hasn’t thus far been presented. I suppose you could challenge 4, arguing that he may have been a heterodox Doctor of the Church, in the same way that many regard, e.g. Origen as a Church Father despite his occasional heterodoxies, but this would seem to me to be an innovative understanding of what a Doctor of the Church is. I can’t believe that Rome would acknowledge an actually unorthodox Doctor. It seems that he is just a rare exception to the rule that orthodox Catholics are in communion with Rome.
Oh, I offer friendly warnings all the time.
But I am not averse to reporting folks for contempt of Catholicism. 🤷
I don’t struggle to believe that. Feel free to do so the moment I show contempt for Catholicism.
 
I don’t know enough about the canons of the mediaeval Armenian Church to know if it was then explicitly referenced, so I’m not keen on making an argument on that explicit basis.
Considering the Armenian Church did not recognize any ecumenical council after Ephesus, what are the chances they held to a Latin view of the papacy? They deny papal supremacy now, as well. There’s no reason to believe it was different during the middle ages.
 
Greek?

Who’s speaking Greek here.

We’re talking English. And the importance of capitals making great distinctions.

You can use the word “catholic”, in English, as much as you like to describe yourself.

You may not use the word “Catholic”, in English, to describe yourself.

There is no such thing as a subset of Catholics, in English, who get to profess their own views on the supremacy of the pope.

That’s as absurd as a Catholic professing that she is a Mary Worshipper. A Maryolatry Catholic.

Or as a NonTrinitarian Lutheran.

#nosuchthing
In fairness, PR, this discussion originally began with regard to the quote from St. Augustine. So while our focus wasn’t on Greek, it certainly was on Latin.
 
Considering the Armenian Church did not recognize any ecumenical council after Ephesus, what are the chances they held to a Latin view of the papacy? They deny papal supremacy now, as well. There’s no reason to believe it was different during the middle ages.
Exactly, pretty slim.

That said, it seems that some of the miaphysite churches held a slightly higher view of Rome, Petrine primacy, etc., due to their non-involvement in the East-West schism. I believe this is the case with the Syriac Orthodox Church. That said, I know of no evidence suggesting that this theological tendency extends as far as Armenia.
 
All of the above, while interesting, is a nonsequitur, Kj.
That came as a huge surprise.
If you really believe that capitalizations are of no great import in expressing our ideas, I challenge you to go ahead and change your religion to Jehovah’s Witness on your profile. It would be as true as if you were saying you are a Jehovah’s witness.

Will you do it?

No.

Why?
Well, mainly because ‘Jehovah’ is not a faithful rendition of YHWH. But mostly because calling oneself a ‘Jehovah’s Witness’ is not part of the Tradition of the Church. Being Catholic is, from the creed: unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam, ‘one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.’
And the distinction is made by…

wait for it…
wait for it…

the use of…

CAPITALS!
In English, yes. But not in Latin, which is the official language of the Roman Catholic Church. And the use of capitals in English is one of style, not meaning.
You may not use the word “Catholic”, in English, to describe yourself.

There is no such thing as a subset of Catholics, in English, who get to profess their own views on the supremacy of the pope.
Interesting. So you say it is OK for me to call myself ‘katolsk’ in Norwegian or ‘katholisch’ in German (when the Roman Catholics also call themselves the same, and have no distinction between ‘Catholic’ and ‘catholic’)? Somehow I have a feeling you don’t. But you have to, since you have already conceded that the word ‘catholic’ does not include communion with the Roman Pontiff in its definition.
 
Once more, with feeling. 😛

Catholics must give their religious assent to all things in here:

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Otherwise, all they are is a Protestant who wants to jump on our train track.

😃

I’m a woman, BTW.

And these guys are Lutheran.

http://www.spiritwatch.org/jwhal.jpg

I’m not about to let some guy on the Internet say that I can’t call them Lutherans. 🙂

Absolutely there is.

Really? So you’re a Jehovah’s Witness, since you witness for Jehovah?

Okey dokey then. I’m going to start calling my Lutheran friends here Jehovah’s Witnesses. 👍
Yay! Can I go door to door ( preferably during a mealtime) and hand out copies of the Small Catechism, then? Also, maybe call myself a Rastafarian Anatolian Orthodox Catholic of the Augsburg Confession? Sounds peachy!
 
Can you explain how the Catholic Church declaring someone is IN heaven has anything to do with being a Catholic big C?
I assume that barring an assertion that he was invincibly ignorant or converted on his deathbed, there’s no other way he’d be in heaven?

Nonetheless, the crux of my argument isn’t his sainthood, but his status as a Doctor of the Universal Church. I’d be curious to hear of non-Catholics being recognised as Doctors of the Catholic Church!
 
St Irenaeus (ad 189) "… of the greatest and most ancient church known to all founded and organized at Rome and organized by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul-the church which has the tradition and which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful, everywhere have maintained the Apostolic Tradition.

When we talk about the Catholic Church I would like to remind all of you what was said about the Roman Church by the Early Church Fathers. They were not confused about which Church was the Catholic Church and where the centre of Apostolic authority lay above all other churches .
PLEASE READ ABOVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I assume that barring an assertion that he was invincibly ignorant or converted on his deathbed, there’s no other way he’d be in heaven?

Nonetheless, the crux of my argument isn’t his sainthood, but his status as a Doctor of the Universal Church. I’d be curious to hear of non-Catholics being recognised as Doctors of the Catholic Church!
So you think the Catholic Church Big C teaches that one can not be in heaven if not Catholic Big C?
 
So you think the Catholic Church Big C teaches that one can not be in heaven if not Catholic Big C?
Nope, stop putting words in my mouth. As I just pointed out, the key datum is that he is a Doctor of the Church. You don’t get made a Doctor of the Church for your heterodoxy!
 
Nope, stop putting words in my mouth. As I just pointed out, the key datum is that he is a Doctor of the Church. You don’t get made a Doctor of the Church for your heterodoxy!
No you get made for the things you got right!
 
Nope, stop putting words in my mouth. As I just pointed out, the key datum is that he is a Doctor of the Church. You don’t get made a Doctor of the Church for your heterodoxy!
BTW The title indicates that the saint’s writings are considered to offer key theological insights for the faith! If you know what they are referring to you wouldn’t have a problem.
 
www.anglicancatholic.org
My question is for the Anglicans who are in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury… how do you feel about people calling themselves Anglican when they’re not affiliated with the See of Canterbury, as apparently these people who call themselves Anglican Catholic are doing?
 
So you’re saying Martin Luther could be made a Doctor of the Church because Pope Benedict XVI said he got a whole lot of things right?
Nope he couldn’t!

Gregory was a member of a valid apostolic church with valid Sacraments. Luther was not nor are any of his or any other of the revolter’s.
 
So you’re saying Martin Luther could be made a Doctor of the Church because Pope Benedict XVI said he got a whole lot of things right?
It seems like everything else it always comes down to in the end Apostolic succession and authority doesn’t it!

In other words for those that accept this concept…Jesus sent his apostles,they sent their bishops and so on to this day. Key point they were sent!

It doesn’t take a biblical scholar to realize that if Jesus hand picked the 12 (and only them) and sent them with the authority of God himself. “He who hears them hears me” and they selected successors (which is verified in history) that there most certainly is something to this being sent stuff. If we are to follow those who are appointed over us it certainly ties it all together.

The so called reformers broke this and subsequent folks were not sent. Therefore they are not apostolic and can not receive anything the church offers as far as titles.
 
Nope he couldn’t!

Gregory was a member of a valid apostolic church with valid Sacraments. Luther was not nor are any of his or any other of the revolter’s.
Uhm…so Martin Luther wasn’t a priest who was ordained by a bishop with valid apostolic succession?
 
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