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GKC
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Everyone should try Lewis.Fair enough
Different strokes for different folks.
I guess I really should read some Lewis one of these days.
Peace
James
Remembering that he was an Anglican, of course.
GKC
- Status
Remembering that he was an Anglican, of course.
GKC
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Orthodoxy and another book about Chesterton that had excerpts from many of his books, I donāt recall the title. And Iāve read some bits and pieces online. Just didnāt feel it. Itās like you with the Frank Herbert blasphemies. Itās a āto each his ownā thing I guess.
I have a friend who loves Elvis Costello. I think the guy sings like a dork but hey, thatās just me! LOL
I have a friend who loves Elvis Costello. I think the guy sings like a dork but hey, thatās just me! LOL
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JohnnyReb
Guest
Good to see you back. I am not so bothered by the contradictions (or differing interpretations) as much as when the differing camps throw sharply critical rhetoric towards each other. The Evangelicals continue to grow in influence, and at least by neglect if nothing else, the Anglo Catholics seem marginalized, at least here in the States. The ACs in turn have said some less than flattering things about the Calvinist influenced wings, and even openly mocked them at times (ie the AMIA now AM is referred to as Anglicanism Missing in America) Why? Not womens ordination or something like that, but because they base their liturgy from the 1662 edition of the BCF. Really? Yeah, for real.I would agree with what most people have said here. My problem with Anglicanism was essentially the contradictions of it. I love the people, the pious worship (in my parish, canāt speak for all), the lovely verbage of the liturgy, the fellowship, and my rector was awesome. Also, being under +John-David Schofield was wonderful as bishop. But fundamentally the contradictions of a Calvinistic Evangelical element and an āanglo-catholicā group that rejects the 39 Articles both communing together under one tent is too mind-boggling at times for me. If I could make sense of it, Iād be there right now. I just canāt intellectually make sense of the contradictions.
As GKC knows, I agree with him that Anglican orders are valid. I think too much has happened since Apostolicae Curae to mitigate what Leo XIII said about Anglican orders. I think that some Anglicans are more Catholic than some Catholics I know. Theyāre very devout and contemplative as well as all around great folks. But I think Anglicans cannot escape the historyā¦the Articles, Cranmer/Ridley and company, the Calvinist influences over the years, and the branch theory was an untenable position for many Oxford guys so they took the highway to Rome. I can understand being an evangelical calvinist JI Packer/John Stott protestant Anglican more than Anglo-Catholic. But hopefully GKC will convince me one of these days. Iām too thick-headed to āget itā at this point.
As for the ādepends on which Anglicans you ask,ā thatās dead on!
Just to rant on because I can, when I read the Anglo Catholic information that I have found, there is a Catholic influence, but they cannot deny there is some Protestant thought and they cannot escape that. Even the more Evangelical wings have some Catholic elements, liturgy, sacremental emphasis etcā¦In other words, sometimes the differences are more imagined than real, and in other cases where real differences exist, they are unnecessarily divisive.
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GKC
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GKC
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But those are large things. Chesterton especially.You and I agree on a heck of a lot except for the military-industrial complex, Chesterton, and Herbert
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Iām glad to be reading your posts, too, Johnny! God bless, my friend.
Before I say anything, congrats with your nursing! I just noticed that at the bottom of your posts! Coincidentally my wife starts the nursing program TOMORROW! She finished the prereqs with a 3.97 gpa and she was accepted to the program in a new york minute. Sheās starting tomorrow and itās going to be a huge change in our schedule/lifestyle but Iām very, very excited for her. Itās a dream come true for her and Iām pumped to watch her live it. And whatās more, on a selfish note, I can hardly wait till the two years are up and sheās working!! Those nurses make the bread, baby! I can hardly wait to have some clams in the bank again! And I can finally buy my 2011 Dodge Challenger RT Hemi!
I agree about the tension between Anglo-Catholicism and Evangelicalism in the AC, especially in the U.S. Youāre right. There is tension. But I think thatās the problem I had with Anglicanism in general. You cannot define it? And I donāt mean that in an insulting way. Quite frankly, I love my Anglican parish here and wouldnāt mind being there right now! But the theological positions and polity are so contradictory that my poor brain canāt digest it. Anglo-Catholics reject the 39 Articles and in the 1800ās tried to fedangle ways to cast the articles aside as unnecessary and just optional for CofE priests to affirm. The Anglo-Catholics tried to repackage Anglicanism as staunchly catholic without the pope. And honestly they did a great job of overhauling Anglicanism into something lovely. Anglo-Catholic worship is really far more reverent and lovely often times than the novus ordo! Problem is, to deny the past of the English Reformation, I canāt do that. It was an Evangelical, Reformed-influenced, Protestant affair. Justification by faith alone, some predestination, rejection of transubstantiation, rejection of saintly intercession and the cult of Mary, forbidding elevation and adoration, on and on. It was very Calvinist in many ways.
I think it was telling that many Oxford guys went to Romeā¦guys like Newman, Henry Manning, Robert Wilberforce, etc. And the way guys like Pusey and Marriott were treated by the rest of the Church of England because of the anti-Newman backlash, I think it shows that the Anglican Church has always been, at heart, Protestant. There was a sentiment of āgood riddanceā by many of the Oxford boysā contemporaries when they left for Rome. And many evangelicals, the majority at that time, only used the Oxford guys as evidence that papastical intrigue was the dark underbelly of Anglo-Catholics. There was a tension then, and I think there is one now. The Evangelicals are the majority of ACNA. And I think some Anglicans in that group see some more high church types and think because they have the bells and whistles and liturgical look of catholics, then theyāre anglo-catholics. But really to be catholic is a state of mind and a theology, not just a liturgy. Anglo-Catholicism is a phenomenon that seems to be dying off. Itās unfortunate because it was the best thing that happened to Anglicanism in some ways. But the continuing movement, from what Iāve heard from many associated with it including some priests, is shrinking in numbers and might not survive after this generation is gone. Heck, even āmainstreamā Anglicanism within ACNA might not survive. One thing my wife and I noticed is how there were NO CHILDREN at our Anglican parish hardly at all! The childcare room had 4 kids in itā3 of them were ours, 1 was another young coupleās! LOLā¦There were a āfewā teens, a few 12 year olds, but hardly enough to replenish the vitality of the parish.
There were times, when I was at church as an Anglican, that I thought, āwhy donāt the anglo-catholics just go Catholic and the Evangelical Calvinist Anglicans just go Reformed?ā LOL
Youāre right that the Calvinist side has some Catholic trappings at times, but it seems odd and unncessary. Why have the outward catholic-style when one believes in a Calvinist approach to the Eucharist, no real sacrifice, a touch of iconoclasm, and a sola scriptura approach? I never understood why guys like Packer stay Anglican? Why donāt they go Presbyterian or other Reformed?
Before I say anything, congrats with your nursing! I just noticed that at the bottom of your posts! Coincidentally my wife starts the nursing program TOMORROW! She finished the prereqs with a 3.97 gpa and she was accepted to the program in a new york minute. Sheās starting tomorrow and itās going to be a huge change in our schedule/lifestyle but Iām very, very excited for her. Itās a dream come true for her and Iām pumped to watch her live it. And whatās more, on a selfish note, I can hardly wait till the two years are up and sheās working!! Those nurses make the bread, baby! I can hardly wait to have some clams in the bank again! And I can finally buy my 2011 Dodge Challenger RT Hemi!
I agree about the tension between Anglo-Catholicism and Evangelicalism in the AC, especially in the U.S. Youāre right. There is tension. But I think thatās the problem I had with Anglicanism in general. You cannot define it? And I donāt mean that in an insulting way. Quite frankly, I love my Anglican parish here and wouldnāt mind being there right now! But the theological positions and polity are so contradictory that my poor brain canāt digest it. Anglo-Catholics reject the 39 Articles and in the 1800ās tried to fedangle ways to cast the articles aside as unnecessary and just optional for CofE priests to affirm. The Anglo-Catholics tried to repackage Anglicanism as staunchly catholic without the pope. And honestly they did a great job of overhauling Anglicanism into something lovely. Anglo-Catholic worship is really far more reverent and lovely often times than the novus ordo! Problem is, to deny the past of the English Reformation, I canāt do that. It was an Evangelical, Reformed-influenced, Protestant affair. Justification by faith alone, some predestination, rejection of transubstantiation, rejection of saintly intercession and the cult of Mary, forbidding elevation and adoration, on and on. It was very Calvinist in many ways.
I think it was telling that many Oxford guys went to Romeā¦guys like Newman, Henry Manning, Robert Wilberforce, etc. And the way guys like Pusey and Marriott were treated by the rest of the Church of England because of the anti-Newman backlash, I think it shows that the Anglican Church has always been, at heart, Protestant. There was a sentiment of āgood riddanceā by many of the Oxford boysā contemporaries when they left for Rome. And many evangelicals, the majority at that time, only used the Oxford guys as evidence that papastical intrigue was the dark underbelly of Anglo-Catholics. There was a tension then, and I think there is one now. The Evangelicals are the majority of ACNA. And I think some Anglicans in that group see some more high church types and think because they have the bells and whistles and liturgical look of catholics, then theyāre anglo-catholics. But really to be catholic is a state of mind and a theology, not just a liturgy. Anglo-Catholicism is a phenomenon that seems to be dying off. Itās unfortunate because it was the best thing that happened to Anglicanism in some ways. But the continuing movement, from what Iāve heard from many associated with it including some priests, is shrinking in numbers and might not survive after this generation is gone. Heck, even āmainstreamā Anglicanism within ACNA might not survive. One thing my wife and I noticed is how there were NO CHILDREN at our Anglican parish hardly at all! The childcare room had 4 kids in itā3 of them were ours, 1 was another young coupleās! LOLā¦There were a āfewā teens, a few 12 year olds, but hardly enough to replenish the vitality of the parish.
There were times, when I was at church as an Anglican, that I thought, āwhy donāt the anglo-catholics just go Catholic and the Evangelical Calvinist Anglicans just go Reformed?ā LOL
Youāre right that the Calvinist side has some Catholic trappings at times, but it seems odd and unncessary. Why have the outward catholic-style when one believes in a Calvinist approach to the Eucharist, no real sacrifice, a touch of iconoclasm, and a sola scriptura approach? I never understood why guys like Packer stay Anglican? Why donāt they go Presbyterian or other Reformed?
Good to see you back. I am not so bothered by the contradictions (or differing interpretations) as much as when the differing camps throw sharply critical rhetoric towards each other. The Evangelicals continue to grow in influence, and at least by neglect if nothing else, the Anglo Catholics seem marginalized, at least here in the States. The ACs in turn have said some less than flattering things about the Calvinist influenced wings, and even openly mocked them at times (ie the AMIA now AM is referred to as Anglicanism Missing in America) Why? Not womens ordination or something like that, but because they base their liturgy from the 1662 edition of the BCF. Really? Yeah, for real.
Just to rant on because I can, when I read the Anglo Catholic information that I have found, there is a Catholic influence, but they cannot deny there is some Protestant thought and they cannot escape that. Even the more Evangelical wings have some Catholic elements, liturgy, sacremental emphasis etcā¦In other words, sometimes the differences are more imagined than real, and in other cases where real differences exist, they are unnecessarily divisive.
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GKC
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Augustus24
Guest
Some Anglicans are Catholic and many more are moving in the direction of becoming Catholic. There are a few dioceses that have taken the pope up on Anglicanorum Coetibus and became Anglican Use parishes. Also 5 Anglican bishops recently were received into the Catholic Church.
I left the Episcopal Church and joined the Catholic Church and havent looked back.
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JohnnyReb
Guest
Your post really got my creative juices flowing, as usual.
At the latest national SBC convention the anti-Charismatics showed open hostility towards the charismatics and accused them of being Pentecostals in Baptist clothing. Then those churchesā represenatives said fine, if thats how you feel, weāll go over to them and take our money and constituents with us, after all, you guys are just Presbyterians in Baptist clothing anyway. The anti-Charismatics had a change of heart. Go figure.
The other day I had a long meeting with Father Mark our rector and we discussed real presence. He does believe in a real sacrifice and real presence, but transubstantiation, Eucharistic adoration, no. Sounds more like the approach that the Orthodox take to me, if not the Lutherans. But if I go to winter confernence, would the rectors of other parishes tell me the same thing?
Good luck to your wife. I really understand where she is right now, its exciting but stressful starting out. Nursing is a very competative field to get into right now. So what she pulled off is not easy to do. I am in an associates level program and they got close to 250 applications for 90 spots, and that was with a low number of applications-they normally can get close to 300-400 per semester. I had a 4.0 when I applied but stinking Microbiology changed that. I got a B. The cut off GPA was 3.4.
Yes, it was, and I think that is why I feel very at peace with my decision. I really never stopped embracing some of the things that we see taught in the 39 articles. I found the CC and OC refutations of faith alone to be lacking in scriptural basis. I donāt buy the whole āwell thats just your interpretation of the Bibleā arguement. I have a Masters Degree. I think I am capable of reading and have at least basic comprehension skills. Thanks.
Amen to that,ā¦
When I took my sister who lives in town to our parish, she said it looked like a nursing home to her. Well truth be told there are many older folks at our parish. But the funny thing is, she must not have been looking very well,because my other sister-the one married to a minister, when I took her, noticed our diversity in age, race, culture and socio-economic status. Go figure. I see what you are saying here. We will need more young people in our parish too keep in going in 20 years. We are diverse, but only to a degree. But then again, our parish is only 2 years old and has grown from 12 to about 60 in that time. Not too shabby.
Thats a good question. It reminds me of all the Baptists here in the south. Some are 5 point Calvinists, other Arminians, others more charismatic, others more reformed and anti-Charismatic, but they all fellowship under the SBC umbrella. If they divided over these things, the SBC would not have 30 million members in the USA and be second to only Catholics in number here.
At the latest national SBC convention the anti-Charismatics showed open hostility towards the charismatics and accused them of being Pentecostals in Baptist clothing. Then those churchesā represenatives said fine, if thats how you feel, weāll go over to them and take our money and constituents with us, after all, you guys are just Presbyterians in Baptist clothing anyway. The anti-Charismatics had a change of heart. Go figure.
The other day I had a long meeting with Father Mark our rector and we discussed real presence. He does believe in a real sacrifice and real presence, but transubstantiation, Eucharistic adoration, no. Sounds more like the approach that the Orthodox take to me, if not the Lutherans. But if I go to winter confernence, would the rectors of other parishes tell me the same thing?
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Great! Good for you, Augustus. Where ru at the central coast? Iām in the central valley. Nice to see a fellow Californian! My wife and I love to come to the coast when we can!
Blessings!
gurney
Blessings!
gurney
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GKC
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GKC
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okbm.oh man, thatās a new one for yours truly!
Gkc
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Bluegoat
Guest
You might try Chestertonās biography of St Francis. i found it to be one of his more readable things, and the subject is quite interesting even if you find his style a bit blah.
I think itās something about that Victorian writing style. Itās responsible for a lot of wordy bad hymns too.
I kind of like Elvis Costello, if I canāt see him, but his ties really bug me.
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Bluegoat
Guest
My parish is quite Anglo-Catholic - no Calvinists there - and it is always on the young side. It has itās share of the old of course, but always quite a few young people -although it probably helps that we are a town with four universities. (We also have a lot of academics.) But in the last two years our nursery class has grown three times itās size and we are having to find a new room, and on Sunday when I had to take my littler guy to the ābabyā room there were four other babies there. So there are a lot of young families too.
Itās interesting, my observation is that the more wishy-washy parishes - the ones singing āGather Us Inā, and protesting bottled water - are not attractive to young people.
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GKC
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One standard Anglican hymn is a Chesterton poem.
As to whether Chestertonās style is blah, I reserve comment. Standards of blahness being subjective.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Itās funny how everyone thinks itās a āmustā to read Chesterton in some form or another as if our lives are incomplete without him! At this point, Iām just not into him or really feel driven to read him. Iām reading a few things at one time and trying to deal with my classroom LOL! My wife, Kate, just started the nursing program today so life is going to change A LOT nowā¦reading isnāt going to be tops on my list Iām sad to say
At this point, Iām just not into him or really feel driven to read him. Iām reading a few things at one time and trying to deal with my classroom LOL! My wife, Kate, just started the nursing program today so life is going to change A LOT nowā¦reading isnāt going to be tops on my list Iām sad to say- Status