Anglican/Catholic

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Well-said. It is elitist, the height of arrogance, and a condescention that takes a lot of moxy for sure. I find it fascinating how someone can discern the state of our souls. Totally inappropriate and nasty, as usual.
And I do not think it is your place to discern the cultivation of virtues or the state of one’s soul.
 
thanks, Gary. I’ve seen a lot of those. I like a lot of his less popular songs really. I think “Leave My Little Girl Alone” and “Rude Mood” and “Scuttle-buttin” are my favorite tunes. Of course I like all the famous songs like Cold Shot and the rest, too! It’s tough to go wrong with a legend.
Live at the Mocambo and LIve at Austin City Limits are worth a watch if you haven’t already viewed them. Especially Austin City Limits first show if your playing a Strat. The cameras on his fretboard all night. Mocambo he just gets nuts with Hendrix covers Third Stone especially, and VooDoo Chile.

Some great players out of Texas though Chris Duartes Strat Magik is good also. Freddie King, Gibbons,all great.
 
This post is deplorable and has a sour taste about it as usual. You have no right to gauge my soul’s vitality or my spiritual progress or lack thereof anymore than I have the right to evaluate your religious health, Edwin. Shame on you. I find your statement about me not cultivating intellectual virtues to be elitist, the height of snobbery, and pure arrogance as well as the usual self-agrandizing egotistical edification that comes from ripping apart another person’s integrity. If you want to discuss these things further, IM me but please stop belittling me and condemning my reputation before other posters. It’s disgusting.
I care about truth. I believe you do as well.

I think that your attitude to Islam is irrational and bad for your soul. I don’t think you are cultivating intellectual virtues, insofar as your post gives evidence.

This matters to me.

If you call that “sniping,” so be it.

If both you and Mickey would get rid of your stereotype of me as a “syncretist pluralist liberal” who wants everyone to be nice and get along, we might communicate better.

Perhaps I should get rid of my stereotype of you two as stalwart lovers of truth, no matter how hard the truth may be. But I don’t think that would be charitable on my part.

Edwin
 
I would disagree. Herbert was more than a simple atheist in his approach to speculative religious paths in a sci-fi novel. People have speculated for years about Herbert’s religion. I’ve read that he was raised a Catholic and converted to Zen Buddhism. I’ve read that he was a pragmatic atheist, an agnostic, even religious. Hard telling.

But if you glean atheism from Dune, I would have to say I don’t draw that same conclusion. Dune is about many things–ecology, psychology, politics and intrigue, monarchies, sanity and madness, human potential (look at the Bene Gesserit and Guild, etc) both good and bad roads therein, prophecy themes, language, how humans can develop without technology, system thinking, betrayal, eugenics, drug abuse, destiny, prescience, survival, and a myriad other things. Religion is a piece of the book, not the entire core by a longshot.

But within the novel, Herbert doesn’t have any atheist leanings nor, from my view, does he have a deeply cynical anti-religious tone to it. What I think he is exploring is how myth or prophecy could be manipulated or how the players within prophetic revelations that come true don’t realize that they’re players. It makes me think of how the Assyrians or Babylonians or the Pharaoh or many of the other “bad guys” of the Bible didn’t realize that God was using them. They thought they were free agents in control of their own destinies. Look at Herod and the killing of the innocents and how he still cannot escape destiny. Or look at how Judas is a necessary evil for our salvation in the Passion narrative. Herbert is no different. He is painting a tapestry showing how Paul becomes Muad’dib with narry a thought of it being legit, more of a missionaria protectiva ploy from Jessica, his mother, to survive and thrive and rally for revenge against House Harkonnen. But in the process, Paul becomes the prophecy and the ugly side of him that is a dictator and a Jihad emperor comes out. He has to walk away from the role as he hates what he has become and the necessary evils that came along with it.

I don’t see the goal being truly human. I see Herbert showing the negative potential in human beings when they become TOO fixated with breaking through “mere” humanity into something far greater. Dune shows the negative impacts of trying to go beyond our humanity. I’m suprised, quite frankly, at all these “Dune is atheistic!” folks and how they miss the fact that the human potential narrative is painted as folly and cynical, not hopeful or a good thing. The Bene Gesserits have gone beyond mere humanity and they are miserable, back-biting, cunning, lying, intrigue-driven witches. The Spacing Guild is also mutated into something more than human but they are drug-addicted, sad, pathetic figures who have no soul and they are willing to kill, destroy, and enter unholy alliances to keep their drugs flowing. How is this Nietzhchean? If anything, it pokes fun at or admonishes us not to be excessive humanists.

That’s just my take anyway. I’ve read the book many times for years and admire Frank Herbert as an author and a man a great deal. He had a talent that was out of this world. And I think he presented a dystopian vision that is supposed to be a warning, not a glowing warm-fuzzy for the future…And I think also a lot of it was real ecological and social analysis, not just religion, as I said earlier.
I agree that he is showing humanities negative potential, and the dangers of that way of thinking. When I say they seem Nietzschean, I mean the various characters and organizations. And the outcome is really rather ugly.

And he presents some people as looking for or exemplifying something more than that, I think. The Atredies are honourable people - Duke Leto is for certain, and his retainers. The God Emperor in a real way sacrifices himself for humanity.

But it isn’t clear to me that this really accomplishes anything, in the divine sense. It’s like a cry in the darkness. It seems like they are just trying to create one reality to impose like the Bene Gesserit, or the Harkonnens, or even those people that come back from the edges of the universe.

He seems to be saying that no one is going to be able to save us, so we’re going to have to do it ourselves, and not look to politics or religion.

I agree that there are lots of elements besides religion, and i like the books a lot - I’ve read the series several times, and my copy of Dune has actually fallen to pieces.
 
I think Dune is also one of those series/books that you can find multi-dimensional and see many different things in it. I can almost be like a Roershalk ink blot sometimes LOL…

I think Dune exemplifies the late 60’s into the 1970’s mindset with sci-fi, etc. It was very dark and not exceptionally hopeful IMO. There was a lot of cynicism in books and film with the genre. Think moviewise: Planet of the Apes, Omega Man, Logan’s Run, Soylent Green, THX 1138, Fahrenheit 451, all these movies (many based on novels) were so cynical and looking at a doomsday scenario or a dystopian gloomy view. That’s why Star Wars rocked the world with its hopefulness and fun, joys and whimsical feel. The same with books. Although, like I said, Herbert is presenting a bizarre and not very warm hypothetical.

Personally, I got into Dune was I was only ten. I saw the film first, which is very much vintage Lynch with its boroque sets, gaudy wardrobe, larger-than-life actors, and script. Plus, it had a Toto soundtrack. It also had Sting as Feyd and I was a big Police fan (still am!) While all the rest of America TRASHED it as the worst movie of the year, yours truly was in love. Then I read the books at the tender age of 12. I muddled through. It was too much. As a teen I “got it” just fine. I’ve read Dune many times, the other books a couple times each. I bought “The Dune Encyclopedia” which has been out of print since like 1989 and costs a bundle. It’s pristine and it’s my Dune bible LOL …

I got interested in the Tolkien books far later and still don’t like those books half as much as Herbert’s. It’s just one of those “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” excursions. I think despite the dark undertones and dystopianism, there’s hope when Muad’dib rediscovers himself and his humanity and like you said there is a glimmer with Leto II in GEOD, and Duncan Idaho (my Ebay name LOL) and Gurneyhalleck show a musical, classy, wise, fun side that contrasts against the darker characters. I am big into ecology and the environment so I appreciate that message as well.
I agree that he is showing humanities negative potential, and the dangers of that way of thinking. When I say they seem Nietzschean, I mean the various characters and organizations. And the outcome is really rather ugly.

And he presents some people as looking for or exemplifying something more than that, I think. The Atredies are honourable people - Duke Leto is for certain, and his retainers. The God Emperor in a real way sacrifices himself for humanity.

But it isn’t clear to me that this really accomplishes anything, in the divine sense. It’s like a cry in the darkness. It seems like they are just trying to create one reality to impose like the Bene Gesserit, or the Harkonnens, or even those people that come back from the edges of the universe.

He seems to be saying that no one is going to be able to save us, so we’re going to have to do it ourselves, and not look to politics or religion.

I agree that there are lots of elements besides religion, and i like the books a lot - I’ve read the series several times, and my copy of Dune has actually fallen to pieces.
 
I think Dune is also one of those series/books that you can find multi-dimensional and see many different things in it. I can almost be like a Roershalk ink blot sometimes LOL…

I think Dune exemplifies the late 60’s into the 1970’s mindset with sci-fi, etc. It was very dark and not exceptionally hopeful IMO. There was a lot of cynicism in books and film with the genre. Think moviewise: Planet of the Apes, Omega Man, Logan’s Run, Soylent Green, THX 1138, Fahrenheit 451, all these movies (many based on novels) were so cynical and looking at a doomsday scenario or a dystopian gloomy view. That’s why Star Wars rocked the world with its hopefulness and fun, joys and whimsical feel. The same with books. Although, like I said, Herbert is presenting a bizarre and not very warm hypothetical.

Personally, I got into Dune was I was only ten. I saw the film first, which is very much vintage Lynch with its boroque sets, gaudy wardrobe, larger-than-life actors, and script. Plus, it had a Toto soundtrack. It also had Sting as Feyd and I was a big Police fan (still am!) While all the rest of America TRASHED it as the worst movie of the year, yours truly was in love. Then I read the books at the tender age of 12. I muddled through. It was too much. As a teen I “got it” just fine. I’ve read Dune many times, the other books a couple times each. I bought “The Dune Encyclopedia” which has been out of print since like 1989 and costs a bundle. It’s pristine and it’s my Dune bible LOL …

I got interested in the Tolkien books far later and still don’t like those books half as much as Herbert’s. It’s just one of those “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” excursions. I think despite the dark undertones and dystopianism, there’s hope when Muad’dib rediscovers himself and his humanity and like you said there is a glimmer with Leto II in GEOD, and Duncan Idaho (my Ebay name LOL) and Gurneyhalleck show a musical, classy, wise, fun side that contrasts against the darker characters. I am big into ecology and the environment so I appreciate that message as well.
I saw the movie first at that age too, and loved it. In hind-site it had some real issues - it didn’t manage to translate a lot of the concepts in the book well. But it all felt so very alien, which is quite different than Star Wars or Star Trek. They are fun but always seem like “the USA goes to space.”
 
I saw the movie first at that age too, and loved it. In hind-site it had some real issues - it didn’t manage to translate a lot of the concepts in the book well. But it all felt so very alien, which is quite different than Star Wars or Star Trek. They are fun but always seem like “the USA goes to space.”
The plot of Star Wars is a lot like a Western. Star Trek is more of a space opera modeled on those movies and/or books about the British admiralty fighting the French during the Napoleonic wars.
 
I couldn’t agree more. Dune, the movie, had a boroque feel and it made Muad’dib a hero, a good man with hope in the future and it ignored several themes, especially the negative impending Jihad aspect. It also didn’t have the Islamic feel the book had or the heavy ecological undertones. The characters didn’t have time to get developed.

The Sci-Fi Channel mini series was cool. Children of Dune was very, very well-done IMO! Did you see those?

But, call it sentimentality, I still ADORE the 1984 Dune film. Love it, love it, love it.
I saw the movie first at that age too, and loved it. In hind-site it had some real issues - it didn’t manage to translate a lot of the concepts in the book well. But it all felt so very alien, which is quite different than Star Wars or Star Trek. They are fun but always seem like “the USA goes to space.”
 
This post is deplorable and has a sour taste about it as usual. You have no right to gauge my soul’s vitality or my spiritual progress or lack thereof anymore than I have the right to evaluate your religious health, Edwin. Shame on you. I find your statement about me not cultivating intellectual virtues to be elitist, the height of snobbery, and pure arrogance as well as the usual self-agrandizing egotistical edification that comes from ripping apart another person’s integrity. If you want to discuss these things further, IM me but please stop belittling me and condemning my reputation before other posters. It’s disgusting.
Strong language, Partly deserved. You’re right that I shouldn’t be talking about the state of your soul in front of others, and I apologize.

However, I think you misread me to some extent. I’m not making a comment on which of us is better or holier or on what the present state of your soul is. I’m saying that certain kinds of attitudes are bad for your soul. I stand by that, but I will not further discuss the matter publicly.

Just please don’t reduce my serious concerns about truth and Christian orthodoxy to “sniping.”

I think you are wrong. I will say that you are wrong. Engage me on the level of truth and we can have a courteous disagreement.
 
Thanks for the first paragraph, I disagree with the ensuing statements. Your verbage here, Edwin, reduces you to the mature adult, myself the child in need of manners and education. I don’t appreciate the tone. I think you are wrong as well. I’m not sure I understand your beliefs about Christian orthodoxy as you have not pinned down your orthodoxy. You frequently espouse ideas like female ordination and sympathy toward gay issues that I find troubling. Your sympathies toward praying with non-Christians is equally troubling. I find none of those things “orthodox” in the slightest. I happen to think this is extreme thinking, liberal, and far more dangerous to the soul than any attitude that a traditionalist has. If you’d like to debate me and argue with me as you usually do, you could either IM me or just ignore me. I think your posts are arbitrarily argumentative and contrarian, deliberately taking a contrary view for the sake of intellectual stimulation or proving acumen. I could be wrong and hope I am. Your views, which I view as liberal, have good intentions behind them and in your own way they are reasoned through with a line of logic, but inevitably I feel they are bad conclusions.

Your posts toward me have a regular hostility and anger. I deeply respect your intellect, credentials, great narratives about your overseas experiences, and historical knowledge. It’s truly impressive. And I have made several overtures at friendship and have been complimentary. I find you reply only when you disagree, and rarely return a compliment to me. Perhaps an IM is in order and we can cool off.
Strong language, Partly deserved. You’re right that I shouldn’t be talking about the state of your soul in front of others, and I apologize.

However, I think you misread me to some extent. I’m not making a comment on which of us is better or holier or on what the present state of your soul is. I’m saying that certain kinds of attitudes are bad for your soul. I stand by that, but I will not further discuss the matter publicly.

Just please don’t reduce my serious concerns about truth and Christian orthodoxy to “sniping.”

I think you are wrong. I will say that you are wrong. Engage me on the level of truth and we can have a courteous disagreement.
 
Your verbage here, Edwin, reduces you to the mature adult, myself the child in need of manners and education. I don’t appreciate the tone. I think you are wrong as well. I’m not sure I understand your beliefs about Christian orthodoxy as you have not pinned down your orthodoxy. You frequently espouse ideas like female ordination and sympathy toward gay issues that I find troubling. Your sympathies toward praying with non-Christians is equally troubling.
Indeed. I am rather disturbed also. He keeps asking for a conversation in truth. But it seems that it must be conform to Edwin’s truth.
I find none of those things “orthodox” in the slightest. I happen to think this is extreme thinking, liberal, and far more dangerous to the soul than any attitude that a traditionalist has.
Yes. As Edwin has stated: “certain kinds of attitudes are bad for your soul.”
 
Indeed. I am rather disturbed also. He keeps asking for a conversation in truth. But it seems that it must be conform to Edwin’s truth.
Contrary to what you seem to think, I am not a relativist. I hope you are not either. There’s no “my truth” or “your truth.” Just truth.

I appreciate that you are concerned for my soul, and I take no offense at the fact. Please try not to be offended by my concern either.

This really is about truth. While I’m sure God’s mercy will deal with sincere errors that either of us may make, I’m also sure that error has consequences. I don’t want to be in error. I want you to correct me substantively, and I am trying to do that for you. But simply labeling me an “interfaith pluralist” (not a label that I recognize as an accurate description of myself, by the way) doesn’t really accomplish much. (Nor did my labeling you a “hardliner,” which I did only to have a short-hand way of describing the position you and gurney and others are upholding.)

Edwin
 
Thanks for the first paragraph, I disagree with the ensuing statements. Your verbage here, Edwin, reduces you to the mature adult, myself the child in need of manners and education. I don’t appreciate the tone. I think you are wrong as well. I’m not sure I understand your beliefs about Christian orthodoxy as you have not pinned down your orthodoxy. You frequently espouse ideas like female ordination and sympathy toward gay issues that I find troubling. Your sympathies toward praying with non-Christians is equally troubling. I find none of those things “orthodox” in the slightest. I happen to think this is extreme thinking, liberal, and far more dangerous to the soul than any attitude that a traditionalist has. If you’d like to debate me and argue with me as you usually do, you could either IM me or just ignore me. I think your posts are arbitrarily argumentative and contrarian, deliberately taking a contrary view for the sake of intellectual stimulation or proving acumen. I could be wrong and hope I am. Your views, which I view as liberal, have good intentions behind them and in your own way they are reasoned through with a line of logic, but inevitably I feel they are bad conclusions.

Your posts toward me have a regular hostility and anger. I deeply respect your intellect, credentials, great narratives about your overseas experiences, and historical knowledge. It’s truly impressive. And I have made several overtures at friendship and have been complimentary. I find you reply only when you disagree, and rarely return a compliment to me. Perhaps an IM is in order and we can cool off.
I think your conception of orthodoxy is rather shallow, being based primarily on certain socio-cultural attitudes and a hardline stance toward other religions. I make arguments for women’s ordination based on the theological principles of the Fathers, and I’m accused of being a liberal. Well, I don’t care about being a liberal or a conservative. I do care about being orthodox–applying the doctrines of the Creeds and the Councils to every issue that comes up. Sometimes that looks “liberal,” sometimes it looks “conservative.”

Edwin
 
Contrary to what you seem to think, I am not a relativist. I hope you are not either. There’s no “my truth” or “your truth.” Just truth
I do not believe I have ever used that word to describe you. Are you a relativist? I do not know because I only know your relatively anonymous forum posts. But yes, there is only one truth.

PS—I am a “hardliner” remember? 😃
 
I do not believe I have ever used that word to describe you. Are you a relativist? I do not know because I only know your relatively anonymous forum posts. But yes, there is only one truth.

PS—I am a “hardliner” remember? 😃
If you will give me a less loaded shorthand for your position, I’ll use it.

I can’t say “orthodox,” because I don’t think your position is orthodox.

I can’t say “conservative,” because your conservatism seems to go back only to medieval Byzantium and to be contrary to the Fathers, who surely had better conservative credentials.

So I said “hardliner.” I wasn’t trying to insult you–it seemed like the best label of your position.

I don’t know if you were trying to insult me when you called me a “pluralist,” but I know that the more usual term for my position would be “inclusivist” (one who acknowledges Jesus Christ as the full and final revelation of God, but is disposed to recognize the partial truths of other religions as pointing toward Christ). I do not believe that all religions are equal or that Jesus is just “a way” to God.

Edwin
 
I can’t say “orthodox,” because I don’t think your position is orthodox.
Scott is correct. Your posts reek of arrogance and elitism. 😦
I can’t say “conservative,” because your conservatism seems to go back only to medieval Byzantium and to be contrary to the Fathers
I am not an expert on the fathers, but I believe my “conservatism” is very much in line with the Fathers. Much more so than say…trying to use them to justify women’s ordination.
So I said “hardliner.” I wasn’t trying to insult you
I think that it was intended as a snipe.
I don’t know if you were trying to insult me when you called me a “pluralist,” but I know that the more usual term for my position would be “inclusivist”
I try not to throw labels around. I suppose I reacted to your “hardliner” jabs. Frankly, I have grown weary of our conversations. There is much we do not agree on.
 
How would you like to look forward to having Prince William as the head of YOUR church? He’s been shacked with his honey, publicly, for a long time over there. That family has no shame whatsoever, and I’m sure glad I don’t pay for them!
 
Scott is correct. Your posts reek of arrogance and elitism.
It’s arrogant and elitist to say that I don’t think you are orthodox? You clearly don’t think I am orthodox. I don’t call you arrogant or elitist. Why are you allowed to say I am wrong, but I am not allowed to say you are wrong?
I am not an expert on the fathers, but I believe my “conservatism” is very much in line with the Fathers.
Well, evidence backing up this claim is still lacking. I have shown where St. Augustine grants that the NeoPlatonists are speaking of the true God. Do you need more examples, from Fathers of whom you approve more thoroughly?😛
Much more so than say…trying to use them to justify women’s ordination.
You may believe this. But again, if you don’t actually make arguments and bring evidence, your beliefs will probably carry little weight with other people. I suppose that’s arrogant and elitist of me, but it’s true:shrug:
I think that it was intended as a snipe.
Well, it wasn’t. Believe or disbelieve me as you choose.
. Frankly, I have grown weary of our conversations. There is much we do not agree on.
From my perspective, that is the beginning and not the end of a fruitful conversation:D

Edwin
 
How would you like to look forward to having Prince William as the head of YOUR church? He’s been shacked with his honey, publicly, for a long time over there. That family has no shame whatsoever, and I’m sure glad I don’t pay for them!
The Monarch is not the head of every anglican Church, and it isn’t a position that is very similar to the Catholic “head”. In any case, I am not sure the CC would actually be a-head (ha ha) in the quality of it’s heads. Some Popes have been shacked up too.
 
And this is the same nasty diatribe I’ve grown accustomed to reading from your posts, Edwin. Snarky, biting, and cold in tone. Very cold. I cannot imagine that you would talk to me like this in the “real world.” I often think the internet empowers some people to say bold and judgmental things they’d never say in real life. Your posts often make judgments about a person’s morality and their inner being and you always come off as holier-than-thou and this post sounds very stuffy as well as condescending. I’m shallow in my orthodoxy? Why? Because I don’t want to ordain women? Because I don’t want to worship with Muslims? You perceive me as some Sean Hannity Christian who doesn’t have u-lotta book-lernins. I getcha. That’s fine. If you want to think that just because guys like Mickey and I haven’t arrived at your conclusions that makes folks like us simpletons, so be it, Edwin. I personally don’t make my religious decisions based on secularist interpretations of the fathers to stay in my comfort zone. I think you do care about being orthodox but you don’t know what that is. You apply modern principles, that usually happen to be far left and secularized to the hilt, to the Church, and that doesn’t jive for me. Trying to imply the principles of the Fathers lead one to women’s ordination is pure tripe IMO. But that’s fine. I would also like to know how you’ve ascertained that my conception of orthodoxy is based primarily on “socio-cultural attitudes” when you don’t really know me from the man on the moon? Seriously. You are emboldened to say such things here but you wouldn’t in real life. You don’t know what my thinking process is or what socio-cultural attitudes have informed my worldviews. It’s arrogant, snobby, and barnyard psychology at best. I arrive at my attitudes about theology based on what I have read of the Fathers, most notably Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, Augustine, Ambrose, Cyprian, et all. I also gather my thoughts from Scripture, Traditions within Catholicism, etc. I don’t just watch some Dukes of Hazzard episodes and listen to some talk radio and then bake my own theology in the basement. I resent, as usual, your elitist tone implying such lofty knowledge, gnosis, and intellectual navigation while folks like myself languish in ignorance that is cultivated by backwards societal influences. I resent it and find your statements argumentative, deliberately combative, and uncalled-for.
I think your conception of orthodoxy is rather shallow, being based primarily on certain socio-cultural attitudes and a hardline stance toward other religions. I make arguments for women’s ordination based on the theological principles of the Fathers, and I’m accused of being a liberal. Well, I don’t care about being a liberal or a conservative. I do care about being orthodox–applying the doctrines of the Creeds and the Councils to every issue that comes up. Sometimes that looks “liberal,” sometimes it looks “conservative.”

Edwin
 
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