Anglican Ordinariate Questions

[ProdigalAnglicn]

Basically, what’s the end game here? Is it to eventually have a full-blown Anglican Rite co-equal with the Latin and Eastern Rites? Or is the long-term goal for the Anglican Ordinariate parishes to be gradually Latinized by the Vatican?

Also, Can members of Latin parishes freely transfer to the new Anglican ones even if they aren’t ex-Episcopalians? Won’t married priests create a lot of resentment in some quarters?

 

[1ke]

Basically, what’s the end game here? Is it to eventually have a full-blown Anglican Rite co-equal with the Latin and Eastern Rites? Or is the long-term goal for the Anglican Ordinariate parishes to be gradually Latinized by the Vatican?

Anglicans who enter the Church via the Ordinariate are Latin Rite Catholics.

The Ordinariate will use the Anglican Use liturgy of the Latin Rite or the current Latin Rite Liturgy, and will be creating a new liturgy, as I understand it.

Also, Can members of Latin parishes freely transfer to the new Anglican ones even if they aren’t ex-Episcopalians?

Latin Rite Catholics can attend Anglican Use liturgies and be members of the ordinariate parishes.

They cannot transfer to the ordinariate unless they have family members in the ordinariate. They will remain under the diocesan bishop unless such a transfer is approved.

Won’t married priests create a lot of resentment in some quarters?

I don’t see why it would.

 

[1ke]

Also, there are lots of threads in the archives under Anglicanorum Coetibus: 2009 that might answer your questions.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Basically, what’s the end game here?

Bring the Anglicans back into the Catholic Church

Is it to eventually have a full-blown Anglican Rite co-equal with the Latin and Eastern Rites?

No. Because they were part of the Latin Rite before the split, they will return as part of the Latin Rite. The Anglican Use will be the third form of the Roman Missal, after the OF and EF.

Or is the long-term goal for the Anglican Ordinariate parishes to be gradually Latinized by the Vatican?

Latinize in which way? They are essentially Latin Rite already, as everything came from Latin Rite traditions and Liturgy. Its not like they had a completely separate theological and traditional development similar to the Greeks and Syriacs.

Also, Can members of Latin parishes freely transfer to the new Anglican ones even if they aren’t ex-Episcopalians?

From what I heard, no. But they can freely attend if they want to.

Won’t married priests create a lot of resentment in some quarters?

It might. Then again, anything will cause resentment in some quarters. You just can’t satisfy everyone.

 

[ProdigalAnglicn]

Also, there are lots of threads in the archives under Anglicanorum Coetibus: 2009 that might answer your questions.

Thanks I’ll check it out. It’s an interesting development.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I’ll try my hand at this too, though I’m just an amateur like most people here.

I can’t read the minds of the bishops, but my guess is neither. The goal is to provide a welcoming space in the Church for Anglicans who wish to enter into communion with the bishop of Rome. The Western Church is not about to start splitting off new Rites or sui iuris Churches, of that I’m pretty confident. The history of Anglo-Christianity if I may call it that is thoroughly within the Western side of the Church, and the Anglican liturgy is descended from the Roman Liturgy which was brought to England by St. Augustine of Canterbury. Indeed, England has been using one form or another of the Roman Liturgy for longer than most of Western Europe.

As for “Latinization”, which I assume means the loss of distinctive elements of their Anglican heritage, I doubt this is at all the goal of most of the people involved. From a USCCB conversation I heard I think some bishops may be nervous about the use of Anglican liturgical forms primarily because they are afraid of non-Anglican heritage Catholics switching to Ordinariate parishes because they are dissatisfied with the current Ordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy and want them some thees and thous.

I think that kind of competitive spirit is silly, but on the other hand we wouldn’t want the ordinariates to be suddenly overwhelmed by huge numbers of lifelong Catholics, so some discouragement of ordinary Catholics joining would make sense. Anyway, right now in the United States I’m pretty sure ordinariate parishes will be allowed to use either Anglican or Roman liturgical materials while Rome works on new materials to replace the current norms for the “Anglican Use”.

Concerning celibacy, I think the vast majority of Catholics are (inappropriately, in my judgment) actually in favor of a married priesthood or else educated enough to understand the nuances of the situation and not likely to be offended.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

The Anglican Use will be the third form of the Roman Missal, after the OF and EF.

I’m not sure this is the best way to phrase it. For one thing, the Anglican Use is currently in use and has been for a number of years (since the 1990s I think, but I’m bad with numbers and dates and such), though whether it will continue for long under that name doesn’t seem to be clear from what I’ve read.

Also, even rightly not counting the couple surviving non-Roman Western liturgical rites (the Ambrosian Rite and the Mozarabic Rite; there were once more in antiquity and the early Middle Ages), there are a number of other historic uses of the Roman Liturgy. Some, like the Trondheim Use, are now extinct as far as I know, though I would welcome correction on that point. But others I’ve definitely heard of their being done recently, specifically the Sarum Use (native first to part of England then at least for a time all of England, and on which much of the Anglican liturgy is based) and the uses of some religious orders, like the Dominicans. The choice of the word “Use” classifies the Anglican liturgy at this level of liturgical diversity, basically alternative forms of the Roman Liturgy associated with particular regions or groups. Again, I’m not sure if that word will continue to be used or not going forward.

 

[JGMendes4049]

No. Because they were part of the Latin Rite before the split, they will return as part of the Latin Rite. The Anglican Use will be the third form of the Roman Missal, after the OF and EF.

The Anglican Use is just that, a use of the Roman Rite of the Latin Church. The OF and EF are two different forms of the same use. I don’t want to spark a debate, just wanted to clarify.

 

[Digitonomy]

The Anglican Use is just that, a use of the Roman Rite of the Latin Church. The OF and EF are two different forms of the same use. I don’t want to spark a debate, just wanted to clarify.

Thanks. More clarity, please! Where do the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, and Congolese, not to mention some of the religious orders fit in? I’m a bit hazy in distinguishing form, use, and rite.

Edit: didn’t notice that Aelred addressed some of that above.

 

[JGMendes4049]

Thanks. More clarity, please! Where do the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, and Congolese, not to mention some of the religious orders fit in? I’m a bit hazy in distinguishing form, use, and rite.

Here’s a quick rundown of the structure of the Catholic Church. There’s the twenty–three autonomous particular Churches, including Maronite, Melkite, and the other Eastern Catholic Churches, as well as the Latin Church. The liturgy of the Latin Church is divided up into about five rites: Roman, Ambrosian, Bragan, Mozarabic, and Carthusian.

The Roman Rite is the most used rite. It consists of the Anglican Use, the Zaire Use, Algonquian and Iroquoian Uses, and the “regular” use. The “regular” use is further split up into the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms. The “regular” use is what is used the most. The Anglican Use is for former Episcopalians and Anglicans. The Zaire Use is rarely used, usually in Africa. The Algonquian and Iroquoian Uses were used among Native Americans, where the priest’s parts remained in Latin, but the propers and ordinary was translated into the indigenous languages, which is also rarely used.

The Ambrosian Rite is generally used in the Archdiocese of Milan in Italy, and in a few surrounding areas. It has an equivalent structure to the “regular” use I mentioned earlier: it has the older Latin–only version, and the newer version in Latin with the option of Italian. The Bragan Rite is used in the Archdiocese of Braga in Portugal. It is optional. The Mozarabic Rite is used in Spain, typically only in the Cathedral of Saint Mary in Toledo, Spain. The Carthusian Rite is used by members of the Order of Saint Bruno (Carthusians).

Those are the active rites. The defunct rites include: African, Celtic, Gallican, the defunct local uses, and the rites of religious orders.

The African Rite was used before the eighth century in north Africa. The Celtic Rite was used in Ireland, Scotland, northern England, Wales, Cornwall and Somerset, up until the Middle Ages. The Gallican Rite can be said to be the sum of the various local traditions pre–Trent.

The defunct local uses include: Sarum, York, Lincoln, Bangor, Cologne, Lyonese, Nidaros, Uppsala, Aquileian, Benevento, Durham, and Esztergom. The rites of religious orders included: Dominican, Cisterian, Carmelite, and Norbertine. Franciscans, Friars Minor Capuchin, and the Servants of Mary used variations on the Roman Rite.

Whew. And that’s the just the Latin Church.

 

[Santi2]

Basically, what’s the end game here? Is it to eventually have a full-blown Anglican Rite co-equal with the Latin and Eastern Rites? Or is the long-term goal for the Anglican Ordinariate parishes to be gradually Latinized by the Vatican?

Also, Can members of Latin parishes freely transfer to the new Anglican ones even if they aren’t ex-Episcopalians?

Here’s a link to the FAQ page of The Personal Ordinariate to Our Lady of Walsingham.
ordinariate.org.uk/faq.htm

The Anglican Use will be the third form of the Roman Missal, after the OF and EF.

As I mentioned in another thread, my husband attended an Ordinariate Mass last Sunday where the Order of the Mass followed the Third Edition of the Roman Missal i.e. exactly the same OF celebrated in our Parish. Nothing more, nothing less. As stated in the link I provided above:

**"10. What liturgy do the members of the Ordinariate celebrate?

The Ordinariate is not a Ritual Church; that is, the Ordinariate cannot be principally defined by the liturgical rites it uses. In addition to the Roman Rite, some of the liturgical rites of the Anglican tradition which have been adapted and approved by the Holy See may be used by the members of the Ordinariate.

It is expected that in due course, suitable rituals (Sacramentary, Divine Office, etc.) will be promulgated for Ordinariates across the world. However, as it is fully a part of the Latin Catholic Church (as distinct from the Byzantine, Maronite, Chaldean Catholic Church, etc.) the Ordinariate will always be able to use the Roman Rite."**

 

[BernadetteM]

England is a different story in regards to which liturgy they have been using for years in many parishes. Many of the Anglo Catholic parishes adopted the Roman Rite, however, Rome is in the process of developing a new liturgy for the Ordinariates. At this time it is not known whether there will be one or more liturgies for the Ordinariates.

The US Ordinariate is mostly joined by former Anglo Catholics who used one of the Anglican/American Missals. From what I have heard, of course it is all speculation, the new liturgy will be based more on the missal. There are no AU parishes who use the Roman Rite in the US. It is a complicated issue as you are bringing different liturgies used within the Anglican Communion and trying to incorporate one that is acceptable by all.

All Ordinariate/Anglican Use parishes may use the OF or EF liturgy if they choose, however, this is done very rarely and usually only one Mass is celebrated using these forms.

So far within the Anglican Use there has been priests of the Roman Rite parishes who have celebrated the AU liturgy at AU parishes and AU priests who have celebrated the Roman Rite at those parishes.

All will be one under the Latin Rite and the Constitution and Complementary Forms have safe guarded the Anglican Use/Ordinariate from being absorbed into Latin Rite parishes. Although many Anglicans try to put fear into any Anglican decerning the move to the Ordininariate that in a few years they will all just be Roman Rite Catholics in their liturgy, patrimony etc. which is not true. I believe it is now Canon Law.

There are many Latin Rite members who belong to some of the AU parishes and I would think the end result is that no matter which form is used we are all faternally one in full communion with one another.

Unless one has followed closely to what has happened within the Ordinariate, one will need to be educated, whether Catholic or Anglican. I spoke to an Anglican priest who called me out of the blue and he belongs to one of the Continuing groups of Anglicans who broke from TEC and knew nothing about the Ordinariate. It has been well hidden from these parishes by their Bishops and priests in hopes that their members won’t consider that the Ordinariate is the answer for those who truely want to be Catholic in communion with Rome.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[jimrob]

My experience of the Ordinariate is limited to two former Anglican priests and parts of their congregations who have joined the Catholic Church through the Ordinariate dispensation. The Anglican parishes overlapped ours and following their ordination to the Catholic priesthood, they worked in our parish until Ordinariate parishes could be found for them.

Both Anglican Churches used the 1970 Roman Missal and the new Ordinariate parishes that the priests now lead use the new translation of the Roman Missal. I suspect that the remaining Anglican congregations will revert to services of a more Anglican nature. Since the Ordinariate parishes are not local, the lay members who followed their priests to Catholicism now attend our church.

Our parish has one married assistant priest who converted from the Anglican priesthood around 15 years ago. We’re used to the idea and the married status of the Ordinariate priests did not seem to cause much resentment. There was some murmuring about the speed with which the transfer took place. Under the standard arrangements it takes a year or so to join the Catholic Church through the RCIA programme and many years to become a priest. Because much of the conversion process took place in private, it all appeared to have happened with indelicate haste.

 

[Santi2]

England is a different story in regards to which liturgy they have been using for years in many parishes. Many of the Anglo Catholic parishes adopted the Roman Rite, however, Rome is in the process of developing a new liturgy for the Ordinariates. At this time it is not known whether there will be one or more liturgies for the Ordinariates.

Is this what would apply to the US, Bernadette? Mgr Newton most certainly stated in his talk on 19th November that no other form of liturgy other than the current, whether that be OF or EF, will be developed for the Ordinariate over here.

 

[jordananglo]

Is this what would apply to the US, Bernadette? Mgr Newton most certainly stated in his talk on 19th November that no other form of liturgy other than the current, whether that be OF or EF, will be developed for the Ordinariate over here.

This is not correct. Please see the FAQ on the website of OLOW:

1. What liturgy do the members of the Ordinariate celebrate?

The Ordinariate is not a Ritual Church; that is, the Ordinariate cannot be principally defined by the liturgical rites it uses. In addition to the Roman Rite, some of the liturgical rites of the Anglican tradition which have been adapted and approved by the Holy See may be used by the members of the Ordinariate.

It is expected that in due course, suitable rituals (Sacramentary, Divine Office, etc.) will be promulgated for Ordinariates across the world. However, as it is fully a part of the Latin Catholic Church (as distinct from the Byzantine, Maronite, Chaldean Catholic Church, etc.) the Ordinariate will always be able to use the Roman Rite.

 

[Santi2]

This is not correct. Please see the FAQ on the website of OLOW:

1. What liturgy do the members of the Ordinariate celebrate?

The Ordinariate is not a Ritual Church; that is, the Ordinariate cannot be principally defined by the liturgical rites it uses. In addition to the Roman Rite, some of the liturgical rites of the Anglican tradition which have been adapted and approved by the Holy See may be used by the members of the Ordinariate.

It is expected that in due course, suitable rituals (Sacramentary, Divine Office, etc.) will be promulgated for Ordinariates across the world. However, as it is fully a part of the Latin Catholic Church (as distinct from the Byzantine, Maronite, Chaldean Catholic Church, etc.) the Ordinariate will always be able to use the Roman Rite.

That’s exactly what I have quoted in my previous post at #11.

Here’s a further link on "Mgr Andrew Burnham: Liturgical Patrimony of the Ordinariate and the Reform of the Reform" which I hope helps as well.

ordinariateportal.wordpress.com/2011/10/15/mgr-andrew-burnham-liturgical-patrimony-of-the-ordinariate-and-the-reform-of-the-reform/

 

[Aramis]

Basically, what’s the end game here? Is it to eventually have a full-blown Anglican Rite co-equal with the Latin and Eastern Rites? Or is the long-term goal for the Anglican Ordinariate parishes to be gradually Latinized by the Vatican?

Also, Can members of Latin parishes freely transfer to the new Anglican ones even if they aren’t ex-Episcopalians? Won’t married priests create a lot of resentment in some quarters?

It’s a half-step shy of a sui iuris church*…

It’s a system of parallel dioceses using the Anglican Rite** within the Roman Church.

It’s a way for preserving the Anglican rule of prayer but being in communion with Rome, while not making the parishes using it subject to the whims of the local Roman bishops. It’s to prevent latinizations, as well.

• The Eastern Catholic Churches are Sui Iuris, or “self jurisdictional” - autonomous but not independent.
  ** The Roman Rite has several sub-rites, all of which are called rites. The Anglican is just the newest one allowed.

 

[Aramis]

The Ambrosian Rite is generally used in the Archdiocese of Milan in Italy, and in a few surrounding areas. It has an equivalent structure to the “regular” use I mentioned earlier: it has the older Latin–only version, and the newer version in Latin with the option of Italian. The Bragan Rite is used in the Archdiocese of Braga in Portugal. It is optional. The Mozarabic Rite is used in Spain, typically only in the Cathedral of Saint Mary in Toledo, Spain. The Carthusian Rite is used by members of the Order of Saint Bruno (Carthusians).

Those are the active rites. The defunct rites include: African, Celtic, Gallican, the defunct local uses, and the rites of religious orders.

The Dominican and Norbertine Rites both survived Trent, as well - and the Dominican is still used extensively by Dominicans.

dominican-liturgy.blogspot.com/
Friar Vincent also celebrates the Byzantine rite… as well as the Dominican and Latin.

 

[Peter_J]

It’s a half-step shy of a sui iuris church*…

I don’t think I would call a “half-step shy”. The impression I get (which of course could be completely wrong) from everything I’ve read is that there’s really no possibility of it becoming a sui iuris church.

 

[anp1215]

I have a couple of questions. What about ex-Anglicans who became Catholic before the ordinariate? Can they join the ordinariate?

Are members of the ordinariate under the jurisdiction of the Latin bishop? Or just under their ordinary?