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GKC
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You appear to think that a woman may be a proper subject to receive valid sacerdotal/episcopal orders, and confect valid sacraments, for which a validly ordained minister is requisite. This places you outside the teachings of the undivided Church.
I know not of your theology in general. I would expect that there would be points on which you, me and history agree, likely points in which you differ.
GKC
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Cheshangle
Guest
Yes, I expected you to say that, and yes, I am in favour of women priests and bishops, as is the entire Parochial Church council on which I serve.
As for my “theology in general”, I am not a theologian. I read history at university, and then did a post graduate in what is now called Human Resource Management.
Are you still a communicant Anglican, by the way?
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GKC
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If you mean do I communicate, and receive the sacrament, at my Anglican parish, yes. Weekly.
I’m not a theologian either. I am a history buff, with a pathological drive to acquire and read books. (39 new ones picked up, this week).
Ontologically, there is no such thing as a woman priest or bishop, within the Catholic understanding. Though there certainly may be found, here and there, women in sacerdotal garments.
GKC
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Jack_Bauer
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There is a distinct difference between likely women priests and bishops and it being permitted.
People might like the idea of sleeping with multiple partners, but it being permitted… well, that’s a whole different story. So we train our minds not to “go there.”
People might like the idea of sleeping with multiple partners, but it being permitted… well, that’s a whole different story. So we train our minds not to “go there.”
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hn160
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In the 1970’s the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod almost went down the same path as the ELCA when some professors at the St. Louis Seminary got caught teaching the liberal line on the Bible and Christian Truths and advocating women ordination. It was the laypeople that called for an investigation and a return to confessional Lutheran teachings. As a result, quite a few seminary students and professors went to the ELCA. This was the Seminex as it was called by the group that left. The LC-MS likes to have laypeople that are versed in the Lutheran Confessions.
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Jack_Bauer
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I believe I heard a guest on “The Journey Home” discuss this in some depth. I found it very interesting. Marcus Grodi was actually Lutheran growing up before he went to seminary. He later became a Presbyterian Minister. He has a pretty cool story, one I find more interesting that Scott Hahn’s.
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melbanglican
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‘I used to be indecisive, but now I’m not so sure.’
In all seriousness, I’m sure all the Anglicans and other interested Protestants who visit this forum would like to thank GKC and others of his ilk for providing us with their intelligent and thought-provoking interactions with the best of Catholic ‘laymen’. Thanks to these people, visiting Catholic Answers is never boring, and usually highly informative and, dare I say it, entertaining!
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melbanglican
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GKC, there is something on which I would value your opinion. In Romans 16:1-2 (D-R), St Paul says, ‘And I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae: that you receive her in the Lord as becometh saints; and that you assist her in whatsoever business she shall have need of you. For she also hath assisted many, and myself also.’ In the same passage in the NRSV-CE, Phebe is referred to as ‘a deacon’l [footnote]'l or minister’. Does St Paul imply that Phebe was, in fact, an ordained member of clergy?
I should imagine that this this subject has been canvassed elsewhere, but I would be grateful if you could enlighten me on this. That said, if she was indeed ordained, those of us who favour the ordination of women will consider that ‘if it’s good enough for St Paul …’
Peace.
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GKC
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You are very kind to say so (and so is anyone who agrees with you). Thank you on behave of all those who you had in mind.‘I used to be indecisive, but now I’m not so sure.’
GKC
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choliks
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+1‘I used to be indecisive, but now I’m not so sure.’
I think us Catholics, too, appreciate GKC’s words and posts, and are very grateful for his presence in CAF. Also worth mentioning is Anna Scott’s level-headedness.
Now back to topic.
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GKC
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Another is heard from, may their tribe increase; imagine blushes on this end . And thank you.+1
I think us Catholics, too, appreciate GKC’s words and posts, and are very grateful for his presence in CAF. Also worth mentioning is Anna Scott’s level-headedness.
Now back to topic.
Anna is a good and thoughtful poster, who can show a slightly different face of Anglicanism from myself, helping to show why I keep using that phrase “motley crew”.
GKC
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GKC
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I enlighten best (theoretically) where I know most, and that is not so here. I do note, in passing, that the KJ/Authorized renders it as “…” our sister, which is a servant of the church …", which seems a degree less ambiguous, in the current heated context, than “in the ministry”. But either, it seems to me, is generally accepted (among us sorts) as indicating a role that does not include being in orders, as the Church recognizes the three fold division. I expect you might have seen conjecture that the reference was likely to the role that women played, in assisting in female baptism, which is what I assume is being referred to. Or, in the KJ use, it might indicate that she was being sent to do some specific task that Paul does not indicate. That she was in some sense ordained, in orders, I do not conclude. So, I am happy to be happy with what was good enough for Paul, which is as I concluded above, IMO.GKC, there is something on which I would value your opinion. In Romans 16:1-2 (D-R), St Paul says, ‘And I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae: that you receive her in the Lord as becometh saints; and that you assist her in whatsoever business she shall have need of you. For she also hath assisted many, and myself also.’ In the same passage in the NRSV-CE, Phebe is referred to as ‘a deacon’l [footnote]'l or minister’. Does St Paul imply that Phebe was, in fact, an ordained member of clergy?
I should imagine that this this subject has been canvassed elsewhere, but I would be grateful if you could enlighten me on this. That said, if she was indeed ordained, those of us who favour the ordination of women will consider that ‘if it’s good enough for St Paul …’
Peace.
You are free to think otherwise, of course, without any points being subtracted. But if I found myself in a situation where this was being used to justify laying on hands for women to enter the diaconate, I’d look for a new place to go. Many Anglicans have done so, over the years, for precisely this, and more egregious innovations. One reason I can have such respect as I do for Apostolicae Curae (and that is a very nuanced, elliptical, and slightly sly, statement, there) is that the validity of orders is a very key element in sacramental worship, and rightly guarded, so as to safe-guard the validity required in confecting the sacramental means to grace.
If you are lucky, Contarini may appear from the void and rehearse here again his theory of why all such restrictions on women in holy orders are (shall one say) absolutely null and utterly void. He does it as well as one might find anywhere.
Hmm. I wonder where my RC study Bible, with its nifty notes, is.
Pax tecum.
GKC
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GKC
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Oops. Didn’t mean to say anything, here.
GKC
GKC
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