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malphono
Guest
Yes, I know. And isn’t it the local Ordinary who normally grants faculties?
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BernadetteM
Guest
Although I can’t find the video anymore, at least one or more Bishops celebrated the Anglican Use Mass at Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio Texas. Since the Anglican Use Mass is considered a use under the Latin Rite, priests are allowed to celebrate it. Just as Fr. Phillips has celebrated the TLM, Catholics wanting the TLM were sent by the Bishop to his parish and until problems from the TLM members emerged the Mass was celebrated. Now the Latin Mass is celebrated every Sunday.
The Bishops and Pope do not want the Anglican Use to be set apart from the Catholic Community. You are welcome to e-mail Fr. Phillips and ask him which Bishop or Bishops celebrated the AU Mass.
Anglican Use priests are allowed to celebrate the NO/OF also. It would be no different than a Latin Rite priest helping out at another parish, whether they need to ask the Bishop or not I have no idea, but do know that Catholic priests who use the Latin Rite may use the AU Mass, at least in AU parishes. It is not an Eastern Rite church, but a Latin Rite church with a different Use.
Please do contact Fr. Phillips and he can explain in detail the rules his parish is under.
Now with the Ordinariate being established the rules will be coming from the Ordinary and the CDF, not the local Bishop. No one knows at this time how it will be implemented, only that it will be and from what I have read our Holy Father is very enthused that Anglicans will be bringing their “treasures” into the Church. His own words.
As stated in an earlier post in Missouri an Anglican Use priest is the Pastor of a parish with two different congregations now joined together and he celebrates the OF for one group and the AU Mass for the other. Of course they can attend either Mass. His name is Fr. Davis.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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FrDavid96
Guest
Both yes and no. A bishop can only grant faculties within his own competence. For example, the local bishop cannot grant a Latin priest the faculties to celebrate according to the Byzantine tradition–that’s reserved to Rome. We cannot presume that the diocesan bishop is competent to grant a priest the faculties to celebrate according to the Anglican tradition. I am not saying he can’t; what I am saying is that I do not know, and I’m asking if anyone here can provide some concrete references to show that he either can or cannot.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Bernadette,
I’m not disputing the legitimacy of these liturgies. Not in any way at all.
What I am asking about is whether or not anyone here knows with certainty if the local bishop can extend to any Latin Rite priest the faculties to celebrate in the Anglican form. As I’ve said several times now, we cannot presume that this faculty exists.
If you have any concrete documentation to show that any Latin priest can celebrate the Anglican form, I would be interrested in reading it. Like I keep saying, I don’t know. But what I do know is that priests cannot assume to have faculties to celebrate the Anglican form. We neeed something more than just “Father Someone says it’s permitted…”
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malphono
Guest
Yes, I know about bi-ritual faculties, (more so than you might think), but the case at hand is not that. All I am saying is that, at present, the situation is that AU parishes are under the direct jurisdiction of the local territorial Ordinary. By your own explanation, the local ordinary is competent to grant faculties within his See.
What may happen when the provisions of Anglicanorum Coetibus are implemented and the Ordinariate(s) established is a different matter entirely. As I said earlier, I suspect that it will likely be closer to the bi-ritual standard, but for now it remains an unknown.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
I’m not sure if I’m allowed to post in this section, since I am not Catholic. So, someone please let me know.
beckers,
I checked the liturgy on the link you provided. The liturgy in the Episcopal Church I have been attending uses a liturgy that is the same, almost word for word. Our services are “high church.” Still, considering Anglicanism, Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy.
This is a very interesting thread.
Anna
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FrDavid96
Guest
One more time.
1 I’m asking for information as to: under what conditions the local bishop can grant to “any” priest the faculties to celebrate the Anglican form? I’m looking for concrete information here, not speculation.
2 The related question is: under what conditions can a Latin Rite priest celebrate according to the Anglican form? Again, not speculation but facts. In this context, I mean without the explicit permission of the bishop from question 1.
I do not know the answer to either of those questions, and I’m asking if anyone here does know. I’m asking if anyone knows it as fact, not speculation, not rumor, not someone’s opinion, not someone’s weblog, not someone’s best guess. I’m looking for actual documentation from the Church that answers either or both questions.
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malphono
Guest
And one more time, I am merely saying that … oh never mind.
Anyway, a practical source has already been supplied.
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beckers
Guest
I am at lost as to why any one thinks that in priest in the diocese who is a roman catholic priest can not celebrate mass at an Anglican Use mass? These priest (former anglicans) are vaild roman catholic priest. The parish celebrates a vaild catholic mass that anyone can attend. Our pastor right now was a priest in a roman catholic chruch before he come over to our parish when the last pastor retired. Yes he was probaly chosen because he was firimilar with the Anglican high Mass but as i said before we have numerous priest who are not former Anglican’s who come to celebrate mass including numerous Bishops. We are a parish within the Arch-Diocese of Glaveston Houston not a fringe church.
You know what? This weekend is our parish feast day so we should have lots of priest running around. I will ask them so that i understand it too.
Some of the questions asked were
1.) What about priest?-He brought up the point that they would most liekly still be under the dicoese of the local area until the oridnate could finanical support the insurance and retirement benefits that would be needed to support priest. They would be “loaned”.
2.) training of priest–Probaly still be trained at the local seminaries until the oridnate could support its own seminary but even then you might want to train them so you can make sure their education is in line with the Roman litgury and since these parishes are not likely to be huge parishes these priest will probaly be used to fill in duties at other churches in the dicoese.
3.) What about Property transfers for those AU parishes already established? Or property from those parishes who convert or when the oridinate establishes new parishes?
4.) What about the Roman Catholics who go to the church but aren’t former anglicans? What about the childern baptized from those parents? Do we move with the oridnate?
5.) We love our Bishops espeically because they have been so supportive of the AU (our parish is 25 years old) so what about acknowledging the local bishop during the prayers during Communion Right now it says “Benedict our Pope, Daniel our bishop” but what do we do when you insert the new bishop of the ordinate are we going to treat it like they do in the Military ordinate?
6.) How will the ordinate be set up? Who will be the bishop and were will he be located?
I can’t list all the questions because that was a long time ago but needless to say there are a lot of questions still to be answered. The Cardinal thought it would take awhile for it to be set up and then some growing pains as we all work through it together. Told us patience is what we all needed
You know what? This weekend is our parish feast day so we should have lots of priest running around. I will ask them so that i understand it too.
Its not that difficult for a priest to say mass at an AU parish. I have seen a few priest stumble through the mass in a few places but normally it is because they are not use the congergations responses because we are already using “With thy Spirit” and a few other changes that are coming to others. Afterall its just Rite One. Sometimes the first time is a little odd but i think no more odd then any other parish that has customs your not use to. We have priest who jump at the request to fill in when father is unavailable.
As for some of the other questions you have there aren’t good answers yet. When the oridnate was announced Cardinal DiNardo came to OLW to do a Q&A. He said that there were lots of grey areas since this hadn’t been done before. Its not a whole new rite but an ordinate so not sure how it will work out. After all look at the document its not very long. Not a lot of substance. Almost as if Rome is asking for advice especially from those who are already use to the anglican ways like the bishops who have AU pairshes in their boundaries.Some of the questions asked were
1.) What about priest?-He brought up the point that they would most liekly still be under the dicoese of the local area until the oridnate could finanical support the insurance and retirement benefits that would be needed to support priest. They would be “loaned”.
2.) training of priest–Probaly still be trained at the local seminaries until the oridnate could support its own seminary but even then you might want to train them so you can make sure their education is in line with the Roman litgury and since these parishes are not likely to be huge parishes these priest will probaly be used to fill in duties at other churches in the dicoese.
3.) What about Property transfers for those AU parishes already established? Or property from those parishes who convert or when the oridinate establishes new parishes?
4.) What about the Roman Catholics who go to the church but aren’t former anglicans? What about the childern baptized from those parents? Do we move with the oridnate?
5.) We love our Bishops espeically because they have been so supportive of the AU (our parish is 25 years old) so what about acknowledging the local bishop during the prayers during Communion Right now it says “Benedict our Pope, Daniel our bishop” but what do we do when you insert the new bishop of the ordinate are we going to treat it like they do in the Military ordinate?
6.) How will the ordinate be set up? Who will be the bishop and were will he be located?
I can’t list all the questions because that was a long time ago but needless to say there are a lot of questions still to be answered. The Cardinal thought it would take awhile for it to be set up and then some growing pains as we all work through it together. Told us patience is what we all needed
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FrDavid96
Guest
But all you’re offering is speculation. If you have any actual documentation to support this, please share it.
You keep saying that the local bishop can grant these faculties, but a bishop cannot grant faculties for just anything (even within his own territory). The bishop himself must have the authority to grant those faculties. I’m asking where (in what document, or from what source) the bishop has that authority.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Beckers,I am at lost as to why any one thinks that in priest in the diocese who is a roman catholic priest can not celebrate mass at an Anglican Use mass? These priest (former anglicans) are vaild roman catholic priest. The parish celebrates a vaild catholic mass that anyone can attend. Our pastor right now was a priest in a roman catholic chruch before he come over to our parish when the last pastor retired. Yes he was probaly chosen because he was firimilar with the Anglican high Mass but as i said before we have numerous priest who are not former Anglican’s who come to celebrate mass including numerous Bishops. We are a parish within the Arch-Diocese of Glaveston Houston not a fringe church.
You know what? This weekend is our parish feast day so we should have lots of priest running around. I will ask them so that i understand it too.
Its not that difficult for a priest to say mass at an AU parish. I have seen a few priest stumble through the mass in a few places but normally it is because they are not use the congergations responses because we are already using “With thy Spirit” and a few other changes that are coming to others. Afterall its just Rite One. Sometimes the first time is a little odd but i think no more odd then any other parish that has customs your not use to. We have priest who jump at the request to fill in when father is unavailable.
…
I’m not asking about a Latin Rite Catholic priest who joins in the Mass celebrated by an Anglican Catholic priest. There’s no doubt in my mind that any Catholic priest can do this, and as far as I know, no one else doubts it either. Certainly no one is questioning that the Anglican Catholic priests are valid priests—far, far from it.
What I am asking about is whether that Latin Rite priest, can celebrate according to the Anglican form all by himself–without an Anglican Catholic priest as the main celebrant. I do hope you see the difference, because this is not at all (not in any way) questioning the legitimacy of the Anglican Catholic form.
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beckers
Guest
Guess who learns something new about the church??? ME!!!
I was at the church last night and ran into Deacon’s wife and asked her this question. She informed me that Yes a priest did need special permission to do mass at an AU church. She said that was the way in the beginning but she didn’t know if it still existed. I am going to talk to deacon or send msgr an email if i can hunt down the document but atleast i know there was such a document at one point.
I was at the church last night and ran into Deacon’s wife and asked her this question. She informed me that Yes a priest did need special permission to do mass at an AU church. She said that was the way in the beginning but she didn’t know if it still existed. I am going to talk to deacon or send msgr an email if i can hunt down the document but atleast i know there was such a document at one point.
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beckers
Guest
Hmmm now i have a more specific question to ask deacon. I have seen a roman catholic pirest celebrate the mass as the primary celebrant but they have the help of the deacon. The one i am thinking specifical of is the Cardinals secretary and we needed a priest since all of ours were on retreat so maybe he got special special permission . After all the boss can do what he wants and you can’t say no to him!
I am going to help at a wedding there today so maybe i can get a more specific answer because lets be honest i hadn’t thought about this much when going to church. Normally i am just enjoying the litgury and being in the presence of God and not thinking about i wonder who gave him permission.
I am now on the hunt!
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pat818
Guest
Hi everybody.
As a 72 year old laywoman who has been a very active member since Baptism at one month, I will just jump in.
I attended a conference and heard Mass in the ANglican FOrum in Trenton NY a few months ago. The celebrant was a priest who used to be Anglican and had been ordained in the RC church. The Archbishop was present and presided from his chair. The 5-6 churches that were under the special privledge (?) was there and they have an ANglican use Prayer Book, The canon lawyer that was writing the canons for the ordinate was there and read and published them for everybody. He was very very open to clarification and suggestions that those 6 churches have found helpful with the evangelization. It was a great three days with about 100 laity, clergy and religous. The arcubishop fed us well too.
Our parish has been praying for the ordinariate for 40 some years. Since that first schism over women priests. (yuk) we have been praying for God’s will. Our parish takes the vote very soon and we already have been accepted by the archbishop and talked to the episcopal diocese. There are always financial problems but if we lose all and it is considerable, so be it.
We have been preaching the faith of Christ and trying to live it out since the 1840’s and the oldest episcopal church that has had daily Mass; for over 100 years. We use all the sacraments and our priests have all been Anglocatholic or they wouldn’t have stayed. My sunday school teachers were Episcopal traditional nuns.
Since I read John 14-17 with any understanding I knew this 2 communions was rediculous and hoped and prayed we could all be one as God sees us to be one. I could go on and on. Pray for us I will let you know more after the vote. Just talked to the Rector and he said no one has commented negatively as of yet. Unfortunately many families have beome Roman Catholics while we fiddled around trying to reconvert the Episcopal Church. I think we put up the good fight but thank God He is using our effort in a different and much better way. Be at peace, we will all get this figured out soon and as the Pope said we will all be stronger, Pat:
As a 72 year old laywoman who has been a very active member since Baptism at one month, I will just jump in.
I attended a conference and heard Mass in the ANglican FOrum in Trenton NY a few months ago. The celebrant was a priest who used to be Anglican and had been ordained in the RC church. The Archbishop was present and presided from his chair. The 5-6 churches that were under the special privledge (?) was there and they have an ANglican use Prayer Book, The canon lawyer that was writing the canons for the ordinate was there and read and published them for everybody. He was very very open to clarification and suggestions that those 6 churches have found helpful with the evangelization. It was a great three days with about 100 laity, clergy and religous. The arcubishop fed us well too.
Our parish has been praying for the ordinariate for 40 some years. Since that first schism over women priests. (yuk) we have been praying for God’s will. Our parish takes the vote very soon and we already have been accepted by the archbishop and talked to the episcopal diocese. There are always financial problems but if we lose all and it is considerable, so be it.
We have been preaching the faith of Christ and trying to live it out since the 1840’s and the oldest episcopal church that has had daily Mass; for over 100 years. We use all the sacraments and our priests have all been Anglocatholic or they wouldn’t have stayed. My sunday school teachers were Episcopal traditional nuns.
Since I read John 14-17 with any understanding I knew this 2 communions was rediculous and hoped and prayed we could all be one as God sees us to be one. I could go on and on. Pray for us I will let you know more after the vote. Just talked to the Rector and he said no one has commented negatively as of yet. Unfortunately many families have beome Roman Catholics while we fiddled around trying to reconvert the Episcopal Church. I think we put up the good fight but thank God He is using our effort in a different and much better way. Be at peace, we will all get this figured out soon and as the Pope said we will all be stronger, Pat:
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BernadetteM
Guest
I am a little confused by your post. Was it the Conference of the Pastoral Provision? If so are you part of TEC or one of the Continuing Anglican groups. There are around 8 parishes now and a few societies who are waiting for their former priest to be ordained.
Which parishes in your area are going to join the Ordinariate. I don’t recall hearing of any in New Jersey, but could have missed a post on another website.
I would appreciate knowing as the Pope has assigned a Pastoral Delegate for the US. He is Archbishop Wuerl of Washington, DC. This means that the Ordinariate should be established soon hopefully.
Your parish if interested would need to contact him by letter and let him know of your intent to come into the Ordinariate. There is also a website that most Anglicans post on who are coming into the Church, also like me former Episcopalians, now Catholic and some who are cradle Catholics. The website is very informative. Your Rector needs to contact one of the Anglican Use priests, or maybe he already has met them at the conference. Although your Archbishop can be very helpful, it will be through Archbishop Wuerl that all Anglicans must contact.
If you have any questions feel free to PM me.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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BernadetteM
Guest
Dear Fr. David,
I can’t say whether priests are allowed to celebrate the Anglican Use in a Latin Rite parish, but I know they cover for the AU priests when they are not available.
I also found the video of three Bishops celebrating the Anglican Use Mass at the Anglican Use Conference in July 2008. The celebrant was Bishop Jose Gomez, his concelebrants were Bishop John Myers and Bishop Kevin Vann. If you go to the web and put in videos of Anglican Use Masses it shows the processional and the very beginning of the Mass with all three Bishops.
Hope that helps.
God Bless
Bernadette
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FrDavid96
Guest
Please. We’re going around in circles here.
I keep asking for concrete documentation as to what the conditions are for a Latin Rite priest to celebrate Mass in the Anglican form. The responses I get are all anecdotal. Referring me to a web video isn’t helping. I’ve already responded to several similar posts saying “this is not what I’m asking about.” It still is not what I’m asking about.
One more time, I do not (repeat not) dispute the fact that these Masses are happening, and do not dispute their legitimacy. I take that as a given. I know that bishops are taking part in Anglican-use Catholic Masses. More examples of the same still doesn’t answer my question.
Every time I repeat my question, posters here respond with more of the same non-answers.
If anyone out there knows the answer to my question, I would very much appreciate posting the answer. I would sincerely like to have this information.
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malphono
Guest
In the current circumstances, the Anglican Use is very limited (a small handful of parishes in the US), so I’d be surprised if there was much, if anything, “official” outside those parishes (and missions) and the few host dioceses. If you’re really looking for an “official” answer, the one suggestion I can make is to contact one of the parishes and/or the host diocese. One such parish is Our Lady of the Atonement and it’s host diocese. Both sites have contact information. A google search will yield more results.
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BernadetteM
Guest
I suggested in a previous post that Fr. David contact Fr. Phillips at Our Lady of the Atonement Church, as he is in contact with at least one Cardinal in Rome and of all the priests I believe he would be able answer his question. Apparently Fr. David has not been able to contact Fr. Phillips.
God Bless
Bernadette
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benedictgal
Guest
A simple phone call is not quite sufficient. Actual, physical documentation is necessary. That is why, rather than be speculative on who can do what and when, it is better to have a physical, authoritative document from the Holy See to clarify things.
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