Anglican Use Mass

[TobyLue]

May the archbishop have any Latin-rite priest continue the parish or must he be a convert from the Anglican Communion or the Episcopal Church?

PRV

My understanding is that a Latin-rite priest may serve as pastor as long as the AU tradition is kept. There are several priests that have taken over when Fr. Phillips is out and only one has been an AU priest. There are some that really like to celebrate the AU mass.

Oh, and BTW, I have heard Fr. Phillips refer to the English used at the mass as “Elizabethanian” (sp?) English

 

[prv]

PRV

Oh, and BTW, I have heard Fr. Phillips refer to the English used at the mass as “Elizabethanian” (sp?) English

TobyLue

I like than term, Elizabethanian. Therefore let us let the discourse on the proper English end at this point lest somebody come up with some other not-so cool term.

 

[SumCumChrist]

I’ve got an email pal who attends OLOA–she loves it! I only wish there were one in the Twin Cities area. I’d be there in a shot!

Ah, you live in my state.

Yes, I think it would be interesting to say the least to go to one.

 

[prv]

For those already in an AU parish (or not):

Here is the new, soon-to-be parish:

stthomasmoresociety.org/

Finally, for all Catholics, whether or not you are interested in the AU Mass, keep the pastor-to-be, Mr. Bergman, in your prayers, as he will be someday a true priest to lead the holy people of God.

 

[BillFL]

If you want an Anglican Use church, all you have to do is convince most of a local Episcopalian parish to convert (including the priest, who will need to be ordained- so it can’t be an ECUSA parish with a female priest), and you can have one there until the priest retires or dies.

Pretty restrictive caveats on this particular indult, explains why there are so few of these Anglican Use churches.

I spoke with the Parish Priest at Our Lady of Atonement in San Antonio this morning about your statement of losing the Anglican Use Church when the priest retires or dies. He said that this is an incorrect statement. The Church stays Anglican Use.

 

[Ridgerunner]

TobyLue

I like than term, Elizabethanian. Therefore let us let the discourse on the proper English end at this point lest somebody come up with some other not-so cool term.

My impression is that the English of Anglican Use is at least akin to Elizabethan English; the English of Shakespeare, if not exactly that. Middle English is the English of Chaucer, and if you have ever struggled through a Chaucer course taught in Middle English, you know it’s exceedingly difficult stuff. I have caught snippets of the Anglican Use language, and it seems to me it is close to Elizabethan, but a bit more modern than that. Perhaps an Anglican on here could help us out with that.

I have long thought that, in the revisions of the Novus Ordo in English, attention should be paid to Anglican Use language. It’s archaic, but not tremendously so, and it has a studied dignity and poesy. English is a very complex language, as it tends to accumulate, rather than replace words and phrases. It has “modes” of expression determined by the context; so that we do not, for instance, speak in the same way to some scholarly person we have just met and to the fellow on the next stool in a sports bar. New York Times English is not the only English, and ought not to be the only resort of the liturgical linguists. Indeed, depending on what we’re talking about, in everyday discourse, we might be using primarily Anglo-Saxon words and ways of speaking; French words and expression, or Latinate words and structures, all three being “modes” of English. We even have a sort of Scandinavian mode we use for interesting turns of phrase or word coinage. But most English speakers understand all of them. It’s fascinating to be at, say, a meeting attended by English-speakers, and pay attention to the way individuals speak in different modes in the same evening. People switch “modes” upon changes of conversation and sometimes in mid-conversation, depending on whom is being addressed and the subject matter. I’m afraid, sometimes, that liturgists either have tin ears for language or somehow think that all things poetic, let alone historical, are “stilted” and therefore unfit for liturgical use. If the latter, it’s a shame, because English conveys things by the mode used, as well as the words themselves.

And while we’re talking about such things, I would like to see “thee”, “thou”, “Thine” & “thy” restored. Those are the old English intimate forms; like “tu” in French and “du” in German. Intimate forms are no longer used in everyday English, so they are archaic. However, people still know what they mean, and they know they are a special, more reverent form of address. I have little hope for that, however.

 

[abirdrrl]

And while we’re talking about such things, I would like to see “thee”, “thou”, “Thine” & “thy” restored. Those are the old English intimate forms; like “tu” in French and “du” in German. Intimate forms are no longer used in everyday English, so they are archaic. However, people still know what they mean, and they know they are a special, more reverent form of address. I have little hope for that, however.

Sorry, but that’s wrong.

The difference between “thee” and “you” is not a tu/usted (you familiar and you formal) difference, but a tu,usted/vosotros,ustedes (you singular, you plural) difference.

Thee is you singular, you is you plural.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Sorry, but that’s wrong.

The difference between “thee” and “you” is not a tu/usted (you familiar and you formal) difference, but a tu,usted/vosotros,ustedes (you singular, you plural) difference.

Thee is you singular, you is you plural.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. “Tu” may or may not be Spanish, which is what “usted, vosotros, ustedes” are. I don’t know. But I was not referring to Spanish. The “tu” I was referring to is French. “Tu” is the French intimate form of “you”. Whatever may be the case in Spanish, “Tu” is the French equivalent of “Thou” (subjective) and “toi” is equivalent to “thee” (objective). “Tu es=Thou art”. “Vous etes=You are”. “Pour toi=for thee” “Pour vous=for you”. “Thee and Thou” can be either singular or plural. If I recall correctly, “Tous” is the plural for both “tu” and “toi”, though I could be mistaken about that. In non-intimate French, of course, “vous” is both subjective and objective, both singular and plural, as is the English “you”. And so on.

 

[Ridgerunner]

. However, people still know what they mean…

Perhaps I was wrong about that.
Also, I think the following is also correct.
“Ton = thine”
“Ta= thy”

Whatever may be correct, I still like “Thee” “Thine”, “Thou” & “Thy”, and I do think people know what they mean in context at least.

 

[4HisChurch]

I would dearly love to attend an Anglican Use Mass. As a revert from Anglicanism, I miss the music, language, altar rails and reverence.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I would dearly love to attend an Anglican Use Mass. As a revert from Anglicanism, I miss the music, language, altar rails and reverence.

I am a cradle Catholic and have only seen pieces of an AU Mass, but I feel the same way you do. Also, of course, I would love to see the TM allowed. I don’t hate the NO, either in Latin or in English, and, to tell the truth, I admire its straightforwardness. Still, I miss the TM (our bishop will not allow it, and says he never will) so I am sure he won’t allow the AU either. I truly don’t understand that. In our diocese there are Vietnamese Masses that are unique and Hispanic Masses that are mariachi all the way. Why we Anglo Roman Catholics can’t have anything ANGLO or ROMAN is beyond me. (sigh) There is, however, an Anglican parish not far from here that is so high church it calls itself “Anglo Catholic”. They cannot possibly be liking what’s going on in the Episcopal Church right now. So maybe one of these times??? Also, unfortunately, there is an SSPX parish that probably would not have had the number of adherants it has, but for the prohibition of the TLM.

My theory about all this is that since our chancery (like many others) is chock full of '60s and '70s “liberation theology” types; way left on the political scale, who just plain don’t care for western European tradition of any kind, (“Imperialist, capitalist oppressors”, you know.) they love everything “Third World” and hate everything they perceive as “First world”. And, they associate the TLM with the West, which they associate with “First world”.

I also think that’s why lots of American Catholic parishes are uniquely the Preservation Halls of 1960s/70s folk music and primitive art. The folks in some chanceries are in a baby boomer time warp, like the guys with gray pony tails and Trotsky glasses one still sees in coffeehouses here and there, and which one suspects of owning bongo drums and the complete works of Karl Marx.

The good thing, if I live to see it, is that they’re all getting pretty old, and most younger people, including most young priests and most of what few new nuns there are, are NOT into all that. Ten more years and it’s goodbye forever to the St. Louis Jesuit songs, burlap banners and the whole shebang. (Well, there will be the old photo albums, like those of the 1890s you sometimes see in parish halls, so people can marvel. (“Look at that”, children will say “Is that the PRIEST dressed like a clown? Why did he do that?” Their grandparents will shrug, not wanting to give the embarrassing explanation. ) Our bishop is 76, and I pray Abp Finn of Kansas City has a younger brother, and that he’s next on Abp Burke’s list!

 

[Anglican_Jedi]

This is the Anglican Translation of the Roman Canon. Although, in our missal, it’s called the Gregorian Canon. I suspect you may like the translation.

Part One

Therefore, most gracious Father, through Jesus Christ, thy Son, our Lord, we humbly beseech thee, and we desire, Here he kisses the altar, and stands uprigyht, with hands joined before his breast, That thou accept and bless, He signs thrice over the Host and Chalice together, These + gifts, these + presents, these Holy + and unspotted sacrifices,

He extends his hands over the gifts, and continues, Which first of all, we offer unto thee for thy Holy Catholic Church: That thou vouchsafe to pacify, keep, unite, and govern it throughout the whole world: with thy servant N. our Cheif Bishop and ] N. our bishop, and all true believers, and all such as have the Catholic and apostolic faith in due estimation.

Remember, Lord, thy servants and handmaids, N. and N., and all who stand here round about, whose faith and devotion unto thee is known and manifest: for whom we offer unto thee, or who themselves do offer unto thee, this sacrifice of praise (for them and theirs, for the redemption of their souls, for the hope of their salvation and health) and render their vows unto thee, the eternal living and true God.

In Communion with Here is made a commemoration of the day, if indicated below:] and in worshipful remembrance of the glorious and Ever-virgin Mary, the mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ:

On the Nativity and in the Octave: In communion with and in honour of this most holy night (day), wheroun Blessed Mary, with maidenhood inviolate, brought forth the Savior to this world:

On the Epiphany, and in the Octave: In communon with, and in honor of this most holy day, wheron thy only-begoptton Son, co-eternal with thee in thy glory, manifestly appeared in the true substance of our flesh:

From the Easter Vigil through the Octave:
In communion with and in honor of this most holy day (night) wheron Jesus Christ our Lord did rise again in his own flesh:

On the Feast of Ascension, and through the Octave:
I Communion with and in honor of this most Holy Day, whereon our Lord thy only begotten Son, set on high at the right hand of thy glory our frail human nature in union with himself:

On the Vigil of Pentecost and through the Octave:
In communion with and in honor of this most Holy Day of Pentecost, whereon the Holy Spirit appeared to the Apostles in countless tongues of fire:

Through the rest of the year:
And also of thy Blessed Apostles and Martyrs, Peter, Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Thaddeus: Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystus, Cornelius, John and Paul, Cosmos and Damian: and of all thy saints; by whose merits and prayers grant thou that in all things we may be defended with the help of thy protection. Here he joins his hands. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[Anglican_Jedi]

Part Two

Holding his hands spread out above the oblations, he says:
Therefore, O Lord, we beseech thee, that thou wilt graciously receive this oblation of our bounded service, and of all thy household:

On the Vigil of Easter, and the Vigil and Octave of Pentecost, the Following is added:
And we offer it to thee on behalf also of those whom thou hast been pleased to regenerate by water and the Holy Ghost, granting unto them remission of all their sins; and do thou order our days in thy peace, and command us to be delivered from eternal damnation, and to be numbered in the flock of thine elect.

He joins his hands. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[Anglican_Jedi]

Part Three

Which Oblation, we beseech thee, O Almoghty God, in all things He signs thrice over the oblations. To make + blessed, + appointed, + ratified, reasonable and acceptable, He signs once over the Host. That unto us it may be the + Body And he signs once over the chalice. And + Blood of thy most dearly beloved Son He joins his hands. Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who the next day before he suffered, He takes the Host, took bread into his holy and reverent hands, He lifts his eyes up to Heaven, and his eyes being lifted up to Heaven unto thee, God Almighty his father, He bows his head, rendering thanks unto thee, He signs over the host, he + blessed, he broke, and gave unto his disciples, saying: Take and eat this, ye all.

Holding the Host with both hands between the thumbs and forefingers, he utters the Words of Consecration over the Host (and over any other bread to be consecrated).

FOR THIS IS MY BODY.

Having uttered these words, he immediately genuflects, then rises and shows it to the people, then replaces it upon the paten or corporal, and again genuflects. Henceforth, unless the Host is to be handled, he does not part his thumbs and forefingers until his fingers receive the ablutions. He then uncovers the chalice, and says:

Likewise, after they had supped, He takes the chalice with both hands, he, taking this excellent cup into his holy and reverent hands, He bows his head, rendering thanks also unto thee, Holding the chalice with his left hand, he signs over it with his right, + blessed, and gave unto his disciples, saying, Take and drink of this, ye all.

Then he utters the Words of Consecration, slightly raising the Chalice:

FOR THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING TESTAMENT; THE MYSTERY OF FAITH; WHICH FOR YOU AND FOR MANY SHALL BE SHED TO THE REMISSION OF SINS.

Having uttered these words, he sets down the chalice upon the Corporal, and says:As oft as ye do these things, ye shall do them in remembrance of me.

Here he genuflects, then rises, shows it to the people, sets it down, covers it, and again genuflects. Then, with hands extended, he says:

Wherefore, O Lord, we also thy servants and thy Holy People, being mindful of the blessed passion and resurrection, as of the glorious ascension, of the same Christ thy Son, Our Lord God, do offer unto thy excellent Majesty of thy own rewards and gifts, He joins his hands and signs thrice over the host and chalice together, saying: a pure + host, a holy + host, an undefiled + host, He signs once over the host, saying: The holy + bread of eternal life, and once over the chalice, saying: and the cup + of eternal salvation.

With hands extended he continues:

Vouchsafe thou also, with a merciful and pleasant countenance, to have respect hereunto; and to accept the same, as thou didst vouchsafe to accept the gifts of thy righteous servant Abel, and the sacrifice of our Patriarch Abraham, and the holy sacrifice, the undefiled host, that the high priest Melshisedek did offer unto thee.

Here, bowing profoundly, with hands joined and placed upon the Altar, he says:

We humbly beseech thee, O Almighty God, command thou these to be brought by the hand of thy holy Angel unto thy High Altar in the presence of thy Divine Majesty, that as many of us He kisses the Altar, as of this partaking of the Altar shall receive thy son’s holy He joins his hands and signs once over the host, and once over the chalice, + Body and + Blood He signs himself, saying: may be replenished with all heavenly benediction and grace. He joins his hands. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[Anglican_Jedi]

Part Four

Remember, Lord, also the souls of thy servants and handmaidens, N. and N. which are gone before us with the mark of faith, and rest in the sleep of peace. Here he joins his hand, and prays a little for the Departed for whom he intends to pray; then with hands extended, he continues: We beseech thee, O Lord, that unto them and unto all such as rest in Christ, thou wilt grant a place of refreshing, of light, and of peace. He joins his hands and bows his head, saying: Through the same Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

He smites his breast with his right hand, and raising his voice, says:

Unto us sinners also, Then with hands extended as before, he continues: thy servants, hoping of the multitude of thy mercies, vouchsafe to give some portion and fellowship with thy holy Apostles, Saints, and Martyrs: With John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius,Alexander, Marcellinus,Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucia, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia, and with all thy saints; within whose fellowship we beseech thee to admist us, not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences. He joins his hands. Through Christ our Lord.

By whom, O Lord, all these good things thou dost ever create, He signs thrice over the Host and chalice together, saying: thou + sanctifiest, thou + quickenest, thou + blessest, and givest unto us.

Here he uncovers the chalice, and taking the Host in his right hand, between thumb and forefinger, and holding the chalice with his left, he signs the host over the chalice, and over the other consecrated bread, saying:
Through + him, and with + him, and in + him, He signs twice with the Host between the chalice and his breast (over the paten, if it is there), saying: is unto thee, God the Father + Almighty, in the unity of the Holy + Ghost, Then he elevates both Host and Chalice a little and says: all honor and glory. He replaces the Host, covers the Chalice with the Pall, genuflects, rises and says or sings: World without End.

R/ Amen.

He joins his hands to say: Let us pray: commanded by saving precepts and taught by divine example, we are bold to say: And here he extends his hands, and proceeds to say: Our Father.

 

[mystified]

Ain’t languigez fun?

“You” may be either singular or plural in English, y’all.

“Tu” is a Spanish word akin to the English “thou”, which is the “you,” singular, that most of us use. “Tu” and its other forms, “te” and “ti”, are regularly used among family and friends, and usually in liturgical settings. “Ustedes” is plural and is pretty much universal in all situations. I have encountered “vosotros” only among a few Spanish speakers on the southeast coast of México, in Central America, and in Oregon Catholic Press publications . Am told that about 50 percent of the people in Spain use “vosotros” in formal speech.

I notice that where OCP uses “vosotros”, it is automatically changed to “ustedes” in the Misas en Español that I attend, in both the US and in the middle of México. Exception:“Y con tu espíritu (and with your spirit/et cum spiritu tuo)”.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ain’t languigez fun?

“You” may be either singular or plural in English, y’all.

“Tu” is a Spanish word akin to the English “thou”, which is the “you,” singular, that most of us use. “Tu” and its other forms, “te” and “ti”, are regularly used among family and friends, and usually in liturgical settings. “Ustedes” is plural and is pretty much universal in all situations. I have encountered “vosotros” only among a few Spanish speakers on the southeast coast of México, in Central America, and in Oregon Catholic Press publications . Am told that about 50 percent of the people in Spain use “vosotros” in formal speech.

I notice that where OCP uses “vosotros”, it is automatically changed to “ustedes” in the Misas en Español that I attend, in both the US and in the middle of México. Exception:“Y con tu espíritu (and with your spirit/et cum spiritu tuo)”.

Yes, I think I acknowledged that “you” can be singular or plural, subjective or objective.

I thought the previous poster was talking about a Spanish “tu”, not French, this seems to confirm it.

For fun:
Y con tu espiritu: Spanish
Et cum spiritu tuo: Latin
Et avec votre esprit: French (Present version, anyway. The intimate form would be “ton” instead of “votre”.)

Interesting that “votre” is so similar to “vosotros”. Actually, isn’t “vosotros” plural? “Votre” is singular. “Vos” is plural. If “Tu” is singular, then there is a difference in the use of “tu” and “vosotros”. In English, of course, saying “and with your spirit” could be a singular or plural reference. In Southern English, of course, plural would be “you all” or “Y’all”. I don’t think the ICEL has caught on to that one, though, and depending on the dialect, “spirit” could be one syllable, two or, if you have a pronounced Y-glide, three. Hmmmm.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Anglican Jedi:

I do love the language. If I am not greatly mistaken, it is virtually the same as the old English translations of the TLM. I’ll have to check. Thank you.

 

[4HisChurch]

I am a cradle Catholic and have only seen pieces of an AU Mass, but I feel the same way you do. Also, of course, I would love to see the TM allowed. I don’t hate the NO, either in Latin or in English, and, to tell the truth, I admire its straightforwardness. Still, I miss the TM (our bishop will not allow it, and says he never will) so I am sure he won’t allow the AU either.

If the Holy Father allows The TLM to be “freed” as the rumors say, perhaps your bishop will have no choice. One can only pray. I wonder if the individual bishop has the power to refuse the AU, if an Episcopal priest/parish is ready to convert…

I truly don’t understand that. In our diocese there are Vietnamese Masses that are unique and Hispanic Masses that are mariachi all the way. Why we Anglo Roman Catholics can’t have anything ANGLO or ROMAN is beyond me. (sigh) There is, however, an Anglican parish not far from here that is so high church it calls itself “Anglo Catholic”. They cannot possibly be liking what’s going on in the Episcopal Church right now. So maybe one of these times??? Also, unfortunately, there is an SSPX parish that probably would not have had the number of adherants it has, but for the prohibition of the TLM.

I don’t know where you are geographically, but I pray the parish in question converts and you all get an Anglican Use Mass!

My theory about all this is that since our chancery (like many others) is chock full of '60s and '70s “liberation theology” types; way left on the political scale, who just plain don’t care for western European tradition of any kind, (“Imperialist, capitalist oppressors”, you know.) they love everything “Third World” and hate everything they perceive as “First world”. And, they associate the TLM with the West, which they associate with “First world”.

Excellent point. Never thought of it.

I also think that’s why lots of American Catholic parishes are uniquely the Preservation Halls of 1960s/70s folk music and primitive art. The folks in some chanceries are in a baby boomer time warp, like the guys with gray pony tails and Trotsky glasses one still sees in coffeehouses here and there, and which one suspects of owning bongo drums and the complete works of Karl Marx.

Yep. You’re right. Our church doesn’t even have a Mary and Joseph altar. We have a “Holy Family” group on one side of the altar. I think the idea is that the tabranacle is to be on the other side! Thankfully, it is in the middle.

The good thing, if I live to see it, is that they’re all getting pretty old, and most younger people, including most young priests and most of what few new nuns there are, are NOT into all that. Ten more years and it’s goodbye forever to the St. Louis Jesuit songs, burlap banners and the whole shebang. (Well, there will be the old photo albums, like those of the 1890s you sometimes see in parish halls, so people can marvel. (“Look at that”, children will say “Is that the PRIEST dressed like a clown? Why did he do that?” Their grandparents will shrug, not wanting to give the embarrassing explanation. ) Our bishop is 76, and I pray Abp Finn of Kansas City has a younger brother, and that he’s next on Abp Burke’s list!

I pray I live to see it as well!

 

[prv]

As I know that I’ve said before, I wish that there were much more AU parishes, if only it were the will of God. I’ve spent my entire Christmas with my parents, though I am happy to return to them, but I’ve missed entirely the celebration of Christmas in the Anglican Use tradition, as well as the last few traditions of Advent, namely English…Carols (?) and the Advent Organ series.

I will, however, spend the Easter season here in San Antonio, as I am a college student, including most likely, the Easter Tridium (is there such a thing in the AU tradition?), and I hope to invite my family over.