Anglicans Fearing Permanent Split Over Gay Marriage as Bishops Threaten to Walk Out

[Sy_Noe]

Institutionally the Episcopal Church is Christian too despite your claim to the contrary. Their interpretation of scripture and tradition when it comes to social issues clearly does not line up with the Roman Catholic Church’s views but that doesn’t make it a non-Christian institution any more than other differences make other non-Catholic Protestant, Orthodox or Anglican denominations “non-Christian.”

The Catholic Church agrees with you.

 

[Padres1969]

But then we’ll all disagree on what constitutes an “Anglican Communion”.

Not necessarily. The Anglican Communion are churches in communion with the See of Canterbury. If the conservatives break with Canterbury by definition they’re no longer members of the Anglican Communion. They could still be Anglican in tradition and practice of course, but they’d not be members of the Anglican Communion.

Somewhat analogous to the breakaway Catholic groups over the last 100+ years like the Old Catholics, Polish National Catholics, etc… They’re still Catholic in tradition and practice but clearly not connected to the Roman Catholic Church anymore.

What is interesting about what Welby is proposing is to change the traditional structure of the Communion where the churches were both in communion with Canterbury and with each other to a structure where they’d be unified solely by communion with Canterbury. It’s a novel idea but one I suspect the African primates won’t go for.

 

[GKC]

Good times ahead for the Ordinariate I think. There are many people in the CofE who will not tolerate these sorts of compromises. If the CofE goes ahead with their plans for blessing gay “marriages”, I anticipate a large number of converts.

I doubt that. The members of the Anglican Communion (those jurisdictions in formal communion with Canterbury) are not at all likely to approach the Ordinariates. They are far more likely, institutionally, to form a separate analog to the formal Communion.

Individually, I would not expect many leaps to Walsingham, St. Peter or Southern Cross. But one never knows…

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Institutionally the Episcopal Church is Christian too despite your claim to the contrary. Their interpretation of scripture and tradition when it comes to social issues clearly does not line up with the Roman Catholic Church’s views but that doesn’t make it a non-Christian institution any more than other differences make other non-Catholic Protestant, Orthodox or Anglican denominations “non-Christian.”

At what point does a church cease to become Christian in any real sense? The Episcopal church has abandoned Christian morality, It’s bishops are allowed to bless abortion providers, it approves of homosexual marriage and has not repudiated blatant heretics who were or have been in positions of authority (Do I need to name the obvious offender here?).

Perhaps your church might hold to the trinity, perhaps it might still believe in the incarnation, but from that faith should flow a correct morality which I do not see present in the Episcopal church. Perhaps I don’t know enough though. Do you repudiate the views of some in your church on these issues?

 

[Padres1969]

At what point does a church cease to become Christian in any real sense? ]The Episcopal church has abandoned Christian morality, It’s bishops are allowed to bless abortion providers, it approves of homosexual marriage and has not repudiated blatant heretics who were or have been in positions of authority (Do I need to name the obvious offender here?).

Perhaps your church might hold to the trinity, perhaps it might still believe in the incarnation, but from that faith should flow a correct morality which I do not see present in the Episcopal church. Perhaps I don’t know enough though. Do you repudiate the views of some in your church on these issues?

And that is the RCC’s definition that’s what is required to be Christian and part of Christ’s Church if I’m not very much mistaken. As Sy Noe affirms above, the RCC sees the Episcopal Church as Christian.

We may disagree on what is correct Christian morality and correct interpretation of scripture and application of that Christian morality. But that doesn’t make one group non-Christian. Any more than disagreements between say the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention over the very foundations of salvation make Baptists “non-Christian” or disagreements between the Orthodox and Catholicism make the Orthodox non-Christian.

 

[Sy_Noe]

At what point does a church cease to become Christian in any real sense? The Episcopal church has abandoned Christian morality, It’s bishops are allowed to bless abortion providers, it approves of homosexual marriage and has not repudiated blatant heretics who were or have been in positions of authority (Do I need to name the obvious offender here?).

Perhaps your church might hold to the trinity, perhaps it might still believe in the incarnation, but from that faith should flow a correct morality which I do not see present in the Episcopal church. Perhaps I don’t know enough though. Do you repudiate the views of some in your church on these issues?

IgnatianPhilo, I am for the most part uneducated about your communion. How does your own Orthodox Church in the Greek communion define which other faith communities and institutions are Christian?

 

[Picky_Picky]

Good times ahead for the Ordinariate I think. There are many people in the CofE who will not tolerate these sorts of compromises. If the CofE goes ahead with their plans for blessing gay “marriages”, I anticipate a large number of converts.

What plans for blessing gay marriages?

 

[mjwise]

I doubt that. The members of the Anglican Communion (those jurisdictions in formal communion with Canterbury) are not at all likely to approach the Ordinariates. They are far more likely, institutionally, to form a separate analog to the formal Communion.

Individually, I would not expect many leaps to Walsingham, St. Peter or Southern Cross. But one never knows…

I doubt most Anglicans are interested in an existence that depends on the good graces of the current pope. The ordinariates could be abolished tomorrow and the Catholics in them dispersed into the normal Latin-rite parishes. There’s certainly been very modest uptake in the US - about 30 parish listings, many of which are just one service at a normal Latin rite parish.

 

[GKC]

I doubt most Anglicans are interested in an existence that depends on the good graces of the current pope. The ordinariates could be abolished tomorrow and the Catholics in them dispersed into the normal Latin-rite parishes. There’s certainly been very modest uptake in the US - about 30 parish listings, many of which are just one service at a normal Latin rite parish.

Could happen. But I think it unlikely. Anglicanorum Coetibus and its implementing constitution seem an attempt to institutionalize the Anglican heritage, mutati mutandis, as a use within the RCC, unlike the previous Pastoral Provision/Anglican Use.

What I was thinking of is that the fracturing Anglican institution, over the past 45 years or so, has already driven out the likely candidates for Tiber-crossing, the Anglo-Catholics, leaving as those nowadays most concerned about the drift of First World Anglicanism, the more reformed/evangelical side. Not a likely source of new ordinariate candidates. The Anglican Continuum, the loosely aligned group of various off-shoots from the Episcopal Church, were formed largely from traditionalist Anglo-Catholics, after the St. Louis meeting in 1978. Other such folk, departing the TEC then, went various other places, including Rome. Anglo-Catholics now in TEC and (I think) less so in the CoE, are more of the liberal Affirming Catholic flavor. The resistance now, to the doctrinal drift, is more on the reformed side, particularly amongst the African prelates. And if they decide to make a move I don’t expect it to be toward the Ordinariates, but more toward a parallel Communion, something like the ACNA, as has been suggested above. Details unclear: it’s Anglicans.

But I’ll be watching. I have for years.

 

[Peter_J]

And that is the RCC’s definition that’s what is required to be Christian and part of Christ’s Church if I’m not very much mistaken. As Sy Noe affirms above, the RCC sees the Episcopal Church as Christian.

We may disagree on what is correct Christian morality and correct interpretation of scripture and application of that Christian morality. But that doesn’t make one group non-Christian. Any more than disagreements between say the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention over the very foundations of salvation make Baptists “non-Christian” or disagreements between the Orthodox and Catholicism make the Orthodox non-Christian.

I think there are some in TEC who aren’t Christian (Spong anyone?) But to be fair, if we could build a microscope that saw people’s minds, then I have no doubt that we would find some in each of the RCC, OC, etc who are not Christian either.

 

[Peter_J]

Good times ahead for the Ordinariate I think. There are many people in the CofE who will not tolerate these sorts of compromises. If the CofE goes ahead with their plans for blessing gay “marriages”, I anticipate a large number of converts.

I doubt that. The members of the Anglican Communion (those jurisdictions in formal communion with Canterbury) are not at all likely to approach the Ordinariates. They are far more likely, institutionally, to form a separate analog to the formal Communion.

Individually, I would not expect many leaps to Walsingham, St. Peter or Southern Cross. But one never knows…

Partly depends, naturally, on what is meant by “many”. There are 40 parishes in the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham; so if, oh say, 10 more parishes joined that would be a 25% increase.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

At what point does a church cease to become Christian in any real sense? The Episcopal church has abandoned Christian morality, It’s bishops are allowed to bless abortion providers, it approves of homosexual marriage and has not repudiated blatant heretics who were or have been in positions of authority (Do I need to name the obvious offender here?).

Perhaps your church might hold to the trinity, perhaps it might still believe in the incarnation, but from that faith should flow a correct morality which I do not see present in the Episcopal church. Perhaps I don’t know enough though. Do you repudiate the views of some in your church on these issues?

I recently went to a service in the Episcopal Church that was Confirmation and Reception into the Church - people who were choosing to be sacramentally part of the Body of Christ via the Episcopal branch (many being received, btw, were Roman Catholics). In that laying on of hands, the Bishop asked them to affirm many things, firstly through the Apostles Creed, and then in numerous questions:
Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers?

Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself?

Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being? etc, etc. (See the BCP if you want the liturgical text.)

Never once did I hear the Bishop ask: Will you oppose same sex marriage? Do you believe abortion is wrong? Are you a voting Republican? What is your moral opinion on hot button issues? I have never seen that check list in any church I have been in, although it has come pretty close, in my opinion.

Jesus Christ and His Church is, for me, an open and inclusive Body. Even Bishop Jack Spong is welcome to think, reflect, wrestle with and write about his theology. Some love him and some roll their eyes, but he is ours and he is welcome.

No one. NO ONE can judge who Jesus loves and cares for as a part of His Church on earth.

 

[Peter_J]

Never once did I hear the Bishop ask: Will you oppose same sex marriage? Do you believe abortion is wrong? Are you a voting Republican? What is your moral opinion on hot button issues? I have never seen that check list in any church I have been in, although it has come pretty close, in my opinion.

Jesus Christ and His Church is, for me, an open and inclusive Body. Even Bishop Jack Spong is welcome to think, reflect, wrestle with and write about his theology. Some love him and some roll their eyes, but he is ours and he is welcome.

I see a bit of a “nonsequitur” here … unless you believe the objections to Bp Spong are based on his not being Republican.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I recently went to a service in the Episcopal Church that was Confirmation and Reception into the Church - people who were choosing to be sacramentally part of the Body of Christ via the Episcopal branch (many being received, btw, were Roman Catholics). In that laying on of hands, the Bishop asked them to affirm many things, firstly through the Apostles Creed, and then in numerous questions:
Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers?

Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself?

Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being? etc, etc. (See the BCP if you want the liturgical text.)

Never once did I hear the Bishop ask: Will you oppose same sex marriage? Do you believe abortion is wrong? Are you a voting Republican? What is your moral opinion on hot button issues? I have never seen that check list in any church I have been in, although it has come pretty close, in my opinion.

Jesus Christ and His Church is, for me, an open and inclusive Body. Even Bishop Jack Spong is welcome to think, reflect, wrestle with and write about his theology. Some love him and some roll their eyes, but he is ours and he is welcome.

No one. NO ONE can judge who Jesus loves and cares for as a part of His Church on earth.

If Mr Spong’s reflections are a legitimate view within anglicanism I stand by my original statement. The churches leaving communion with the episcopal Church USA and COE are better for not giving into the type of subjectivity expressed in this post. They are moving closer to Christ, not further.

If no one can judge who is and who is not part of the church, then the Anglican church stands for nothing except a bunch of words which mean anything the individual wants them to, not historic Christianity.

 

[GKC]

Partly depends, naturally, on what is meant by “many”. There are 40 parishes in the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham; so if, oh say, 10 more parishes joined that would be a 25% increase.

Certainly.

And how many are former Pastoral Provision/Anglican Use parishes that predate *Anglicanorum Coetibus *?

The discussion threads here, back 7 years ago when Anglicanorum Coetibus was announced often anticipated majestic herds of Anglicans sweeping through the gates in response. I doubted it then. And still wonder how many came in from TEC, after 2009, new accessions.

I doubt theexistence of the Ordinariates would in the circumstances prevailing, 7 years on, bring in a larger harvest.

 

[Peter_J]

Jesus Christ and His Church is, for me, an open and inclusive Body. Even Bishop Jack Spong is welcome to think, reflect, wrestle with and write about his theology. Some love him and some roll their eyes, but he is ours and he is welcome.

So what about the parishes who do this:

I recently went to a service in the Episcopal Church that was Confirmation and Reception into the Church - people who were choosing to be sacramentally part of the Body of Christ via the Episcopal branch (many being received, btw, were Roman Catholics). In that laying on of hands,** the Bishop asked them to affirm many things, firstly through the Apostles Creed, and then in numerous questions:
Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers?

Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself?

Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being?** etc, etc. (See the BCP if you want the liturgical text.)

Clearly that parish and bishop are closed, exclusive, and not welcoming people to think.

 

[Peter_J]

Certainly.

And how many are former Pastoral Provision/Anglican Use parishes that predate *Anglicanorum Coetibus *?

IDK. Do you? (Quite a few I believe.)

The discussion threads here, back 7 years ago when Anglicanorum Coetibus was announced often anticipated majestic herds of Anglicans sweeping through the gates in response. I doubted it then. And still wonder how many came in from TEC, after 2009, new accessions.

I doubt theexistence of the Ordinariates would in the circumstances prevailing, 7 years on, bring in a larger harvest

Yes I remember those predictions – indeed, I believed them, to a certain extent.

BTW, I don’t think Ordinariate numbers are terribly different from Western-Rite Orthodox numbers.

 

[GKC]

IDK. Do you? (Quite a few I believe.)

Yes I remember those predictions – indeed, I believed them, to a certain extent.

BTW, I don’t think Ordinariate numbers are terribly different from Western-Rite Orthodox numbers.

As to the last, IDK.

As to the first, IDK. But if it was above a couple of thousand, I would be very surprised.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Clearly that parish and bishop are closed, exclusive, and not welcoming people to think.

No, I don’t believe that asking you to affirm personal belief in Christ, in prayer, in Sacraments, etc, means that you are closed and exclusive. I would say just the opposite, at least in my community. We have an open Communion table, we welcome the stranger, we care for those in need, regardless of faith.We keep doors (and windows) open. I realize not all people of faith do.

As to thinking? Perhaps there are faith communities that prefer to tell people exactly what to believe and not. And there are faith communities that do encourage people to ponder, reflect and hammer out theology. I am seeing some of that polemic here. Two sides to a coin?

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

At what point does a church cease to become Christian in any real sense? The Episcopal church has abandoned Christian morality, It’s bishops are allowed to bless abortion providers, it approves of homosexual marriage and has not repudiated blatant heretics who were or have been in positions of authority (Do I need to name the obvious offender here?).

Perhaps your church might hold to the trinity, perhaps it might still believe in the incarnation, but from that faith should flow a correct morality which I do not see present in the Episcopal church. Perhaps I don’t know enough though. Do you repudiate the views of some in your church on these issues?

Another Episcopalian chiming in. I refuse to be associated with the approval of SSM and bishops who are allowed to bless abortion providers.

I attend Catholic Mass every week. I haven’t been to an Episcopal church in over three years and have no intention of going back.