Anglicans to Rome - Thread 2

[Matt16_18]

Traditional Ang:

Matt, if you know what heresies the Prostestant has fallen into, your job is to help him out of the pit. Now, how do you think you do that?

Ask the Protestant to attend RCIA class as an inquirer. Make the Protestant feel welcome, and let the Protestant know that he is free to stay in the inquiry classes as long as he or she desires. Present a thorough and systematic presentation of Catholic beliefs. Pray for the Protestant and perform the rites of minor exorcism. Give the Protestant blessings. But above all, explain to the Protestant that Catholics do NOT believe in the “mistaken notion of the autonomy of conscience”. (CCC 1792)

You simply IGNORED what they had experienced in order to try to hold to what they believed to be the Catholic Faith, and instead went to a series of Posts about the LAW and the LAW and the LAW …

Protestants often do not understand that the law is good (Romans 7:16 & 1Tim 1:8), and that God’s mercy is never in conflict with his justice. Protestant misunderstandings about the nature of justification should be cleared up in an RCIA class.“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 5:32

Why do you persist in accusing Traditional Anglicans of knowing Mortal Sin, when at most they’re guilty of is IGNORANCE, which is NOT A SIN?!?

I would never presume to know what is in another man’s heart. How could I possibly know if an Anglican has kept himself separated from the Catholic Church out of ignorance or willful disobedience to the will of God? Only God knows what is in the heart of man. My obligation is to do what I can to help make disciples of all nations. God desires all people to be in full communion with his church - the Catholic Church.

That’s why I think it’s important for you and Matt to ACKNOWLEDGE what these people have SACRIFICED and the PERSECUTION many of them have experienced at the hands of their former co-religionists!

Persecution? Are you trying to compare what liberal Anglicans have done to their former co-religionists with the real persecutions that Christians have endured? I have met men that have lived for years in the Soviet Gulag and in Communist Chinese prisons rather than deny the Catholic faith. Aren’t you perhaps being a wee bit over-dramatic here?

I believe the doctrines, so you’ve been preaching to the converted.

If you believe all the doctrines of the Catholic Church, then why are you still an Anglican?

… [Christ] explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk. 16:16; Jn. 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.
Lumen Gentium, 14

"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”
Luke 14:26

Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” But Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.” And when he got into the boat, his disciples followed him.
Matt. 8:21-23

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Michael:

You apology is accepted.
Gottle of Geer:

If I’ve been unkind or harsh or brutal, I apologise unreservedly.
I do not apologise for trying to explain why everything defined is to believed as a revealed truth by all.

You only needed to ecplain it once and then to have answered any questions. I was subjected to multiple runs like the two of youwere trying to beat me down.

Part of what made the bluntness hurt more was that you seemed to pointedly ignore what I was sayin…
Gottle of Geer:

I’ve read all posts on both threads. If I seem blunt, that is partly because of the word limit.

…It was like each of my posts were excuses to launch into another exegesis of why the Traditional Anglicans had to accept PI.

And when you were finished, Matt launcehed into another explanation, whether you were finished or not. It was like I was being tag-teamed!

Michael, did you ever feel like I was being blunt or ignoring you in return? or Was it just that I was refusing to agree with you?
Gottle of Geer:

I’m sorry - I didn’t know that being personally addressed was so important to you.

Michael, it is when no one one is addressing me as a human being or addressing any of the human concerns I’m bringing to the Thread. It is when I’m being ganged up on and “given the bum’s rush”!

I’ve also seen that on other Threads it keeps a feeling of “Collegiality” even when people disagree. Otherwise, it becomes all too easy to push the point at the expense of the person on the other side. In debate, that’s fine, but we’re supposed to be “Brothers and Sisters in Christ” here!

You said this several times already, accept for the human part. As I said at the time, I was functioning on the good faith belief that the Pope had made a good faith offer to the TAC which I felt they were obliged to accept…
Gottle of Geer:

But acceptance of 100 % is the requirement. I’m sorry. It would be grossly irresponsible of me to tell you otherwise; & it would be untrue. It would be very nice if one could tell a comforting lie just to be friendly & easy-going. But it would only do harm sooner or later. Besides, what friendship is there in lying to you ? There is no shame in being honestly mistaken, but there is great shame in lying.

…But is there shame in accepting a Church body into Communion who’ve not met every critieria you believe the Church demands?

Even you admitted that the Byzantine Catholics have a differnet canon for the OT than the West does…
Gottle of Geer:

Reception is a total response of the human person to God, so, it involves accepting the totality of what is revealed - not nearly all of it. Understanding takes a lifetime - but the creative act of faith that makes one fully a Catholic, can take one moment. That moment, is roughly analogous to Transubstantiation.

…But that is somethign that God does, not something that happens because a few posters gangeed up on some poor guy who didn’t know when to simply get out.

That’s true, so why did you do it?

Actually, the degree of unbelief is relevant - As I’ve demonstrated before, ECUSA is preaching doctrine that endangers people’s salvation and their relationship to God! This is true of other parts of the Anglican Communion as well…
Gottle of Geer:

One must not insult those one is trying to win - but, the degree of unbelief is irrelevant. Adam is as truly a sinner as Nero - it’s irrelevant that Adam committed just the one sin. Denying PI is as ruinous to being Catholic as denying things far more central.

Which is a good reason not to single out people as especially bad - Catholic or otherwise.

…And, as I said, I was under the misapprehension that the Pope had found a way to overlook the unbelief of some members of the TAC in PI to grant the Communion to the TAC.

Denying PI may be as ruinous as the more central things, but DENYING the CORE DOCTRINES end up being more scandalous and can place people’s souls in real jeopardy.

I’m sorry if you were offended at my citations of the problems in the American Church. I shouldn’t have used that situation.

I would much rather have dealt with the human story that I believe the Pope’s acting on, the one that cries for MERCY and GRACE as well as genuine prayers from those who know what’s going on.

Would you please look at that situation?!?

Blessings and peace. Michael

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

IRELAND: Orthodox Primates Refuse Joint Eucharist With Griswold

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Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:01:33 -0500
From: David Virtue david@VIRTUEONLINE.ORG

ORTHODOX PRIMATES REFUSE JOINT EUCHARIST WITH GRISWOLD
Day One of the Primates Meeting in Dromantine, Northern Ireland

By David W. Virtue

NEWRY, Northern Ireland (2/21/2005)–A winter chill that brought
flurries of snow to Ireland yesterday also blew through the assembled archbishops of the Anglican Communion meeting at the Dromantine Center, a Roman Catholic monastic retreat where 35 Primates, leaders of 78 million Anglicans are gathered, to weigh their future together as a communion.

The chill turned icy when orthodox primates of the Global South refused to celebrate the Eucharist in the presence of ultra-liberal American Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold. As a result Irish Primate Robin Eames announced that his chaplain would offer Eucharist and be the celebrant to anyone who wanted it. None of the Global South bishops showed up.

“We would not celebrate the Eucharist at the same altar with Griswold,” a Primate told VirtueOnline.

The atmosphere is anything but positive, said a source. Camps are forming and it is going to be very difficult for Dr. Rowan Williams the Anglican Church’s titular head to find points of contact between the two groups.

Already the agenda for the occasion has been called into question.

The liberals, lead by US Presiding Bishop wanted to launch in on the “issues” - HIV/AIDS, Third World poverty and more - an agenda put together by the liberal Anglican Communion Office, but Nigerian Primate Peter Akinola interjected saying “how can we talk about the issues, we need to have reconciliation between brothers before anything else.”

The Africans won a victory on the agenda issues being controlled by Western liberals, VirtueOnline was told. It is being handled one day at a time. The agenda is evolving day by day only with the approval of the global South. The planned service at the cathedral on Tuesday for a photo op with journalists will be decided in the next 24 hours. The message is clear, do the orthodox primates want to be photographed with ECUSA Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold?

When an Anglican primate was asked if the photo op would take place, he said, “The agenda will be set in the morning by all of the Primates and not just by non-primates, specifically the Anglican Communion office who planned the meeting.”

The Global South primates will not participate in anything they do not agree with, VirtueOnline was told. The time for “listening” is over. They are very conscious of the way they were manipulated by the former head of the ACO Canon John Peterson and they have vowed not to let that happen again.

The Global South Primates have never been as strong and unified as this, said a source. “They are altogether.”

The meeting is no longer being controlled by the Anglican Consultative Council. It is the primates meeting and they are in control, said another source.

Three Primates are absent. Archbishop Peter Kwong (Hong Kong) has serious heart problems. The daughter of the Archbishop of Burundi Samuel Ndeysienga died recently and Northern India Zechariah James Terom also could not attend for unspecified reasons.

END

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End of VIRTUEONLINE Digest - 21 Feb 2005 to 22 Feb 2005 (#2005-9)

---

 

[MaggieOH]

Matt16_18:

Ask the Protestant to attend RCIA class as an inquirer. Make the Protestant feel welcome, and let the Protestant know that he is free to stay in the inquiry classes as long as he or she desires. Present a thorough and systematic presentation of Catholic beliefs. Pray for the Protestant and perform the rites of minor exorcism. Give the Protestant blessings. But above all, explain to the Protestant that Catholics do NOT believe in the “mistaken notion of the autonomy of conscience”. (CCC 1792)

As a cradle Catholic I am offended by your persistent approach on this subject. There are less threatening ways to introduce a non-Catholic to Catholic beliefs. Marcellino D’Ambrosio has given some really excellent lectures on this subject.

What I find so offensive in what you have posted is the belief that a person who is not a Catholic and who is making enquiry has done nothing in the way of investigation and preparation for making this next step. In particular it is offensive because you do not seem to have taken the time to enquire into any of the held beliefs of members of the TAC

I suggest that you have a look at this site:

ladyofwalsingham.com/

where you will see that at Our Lady of Walsingham Brisbane, the TAC practice all of the 7 Sacraments. That means that they follow the Catholic faith as we understand it. They do not follow the modern heresies of the Anglican communion.

Protestants often do not understand that the law is good (Romans 7:16 & 1Tim 1:8), and that God’s mercy is never in conflict with his justice. Protestant misunderstandings about the nature of justification should be cleared up in an RCIA class.“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 5:32

yet that is exactly what you are doing. This is a good example of why you give offence to a people that need a home within the Catholic Church.

They do not teach Luther’s view of salvation and justification. Therefore there is no problem.

Again any enquiry in a non-threatening environment will help to see whether or not it is necessary to teach members of the TAC about how Catholics understand justification.

I would never presume to know what is in another man’s heart. How could I possibly know if an Anglican has kept himself separated from the Catholic Church out of ignorance or willful disobedience to the will of God? Only God knows what is in the heart of man. My obligation is to do what I can to help make disciples of all nations. God desires all people to be in full communion with his church - the Catholic Church.

this is a very presumptious statement. On the one hand you are saying that you would not presume to know a man’s heart and then in the next instant you are talking about separation from the Church and wilful disobedience. These people were brought up in the Anglican communion. There is no wilful disobedience.

The Church teaches that they know the truth but not the fulness of the Truth and that is very different to the approach that you have taken.

Persecution? Are you trying to compare what liberal Anglicans have done to their former co-religionists with the real persecutions that Christians have endured? I have met men that have lived for years in the Soviet Gulag and in Communist Chinese prisons rather than deny the Catholic faith. Aren’t you perhaps being a wee bit over-dramatic here?

Again this is a very arrogant attitude that shows no compassion at all for people who want to be a part of the Catholic Church.

There are degrees of persecution. You describe the worst kind of persecution, but what these people have suffered is also very real. I can take it that you have never gone through any form of vilification, that you have never been put into coventry, that you have not had property that you paid for being taken away from you? Have you forgotten that this has already happened to the Catholic Church in England when Henry VIII confiscated Church property? It is a repeat of this action.

If you believe all the doctrines of the Catholic Church, then why are you still an Anglican?

this is a very insensitive question. Have you ever read or listened to the conversion stories of those who have felt the pull of the Catholic Church and who had to give up being pastors etc. to become Catholic?

You have not even considered the trauma of such decision making. You make it sound like it is an easy decision to make. If Michael wants to hang out for the TAC coming into communion with Rome, then surely he has a right to desire to continue with what he already knows. He already attends a very Catholic Mass and obviously also receives the seven sacraments.

MaggieOH

 

[oat_soda]

As a cradle Catholic I am offended by your persistent approach on this subject. There are less threatening ways to introduce a non-Catholic to Catholic beliefs. Marcellino D’Ambrosio has given some really excellent lectures on this subject.

many people here are serious about thier faith and want to express this here. nobody is forcing non catholics to be here. not everyone is as sensitive as you.

the bottom line is those who remain separated from the catholic church except by invincible ignorance risk going to hell, including anglo catholics.

 

[Matt16_18]

MaggieOH:

That means that they follow the Catholic faith as we understand it.

If the Anglicans accepted the Catholic faith, they would not be Anglicans! Anglican conceit is that they comprise the via media, but the Catholic Church has never accepted this claim, because the claim is false.

Anglicans are Protestants - they are a branch that is separated from the vine. The only hope for Anglicans is to once again accept the authority of the magisterium of the true church. Anglicans must become Catholics once again, and that means that Anglicans must accept the dogma of papal infallibility.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

**

jwehlitz:

Traditional Ang and Maggie OH,

---

I didn’t mean to sound offensive, and I wasn’t being critical of the TAC, just pointing out that some of the parishes might have to go through a lot of change before they would be ready to join the Catholic Church. The parish I mentioned is a parish of the Anglican Church in America, which I understand is part of the TAC. When I was there was just after they had pulled out of ECUSA. If the TAC position on gay lifestyles is comparable to that of the Catholic Church (the official position), then that parish is likely to have changed a lot. I hope so.

---

Of course many people have left the ECUSA, C of E etc., due to the gay situation. I will be one of them in the near future. Actually the ordination of gays to the priesthood, and the consecration of a gay bishop are just symptoms of the fact that ECUSA is being run by a group of heretics.

---

Anyway, I apologize if I sounded offensive in my original post.**
**# Just wondering: how is the ordination of gays problematic enough to cause a change of Churchmanship, when the presence of gays in the Church is not ? **

---

**If the presence of gays in the Church, or the presence of gays in the priesthood, is a matter serious enough for a Christian to change Churchmanship, becoming RC will be no remedy. Is the issue, the ordination of men known to be gay ? I get the impression that, even if this be so, this is but one of several issues. **

---

**If the problem is connivance at evil - is that serious enough to change for ? Quite a few things in Christian history could be regarded as examples of connivance. I still don’t see what makes Anglican Churches fatally “unChristian”, that does not make others “unChristian” too - “others” including the CC. **

---

**If I may say this: I’ve wondered sometimes how much of the desire to become RC, is attraction to RCism, and how much is revulsion from Anglicanism. One reason for wondering is that converts are sometimes very harsh to their former “religious commitment”. Only the individuals can know the answer, obviously - it’s just a pity that converts, who have experienced not one but two (or more)types of this “commitment”, aren’t always a bridge from each to other. Cradle Anglicans don’t know RCism from inside - Cradle RCs don’t know Anglicanism from inside. Which is where converts can be so helpful, to both Churches. **

---

I wish an Anglican would say these things - it would be much better for an Anglican to raise these issues. ##

 

[SyroMalankara]

Gottle of Geer:

• by an ecumenical council.
  That is how Rome sees the matter, & that is Rome’s belief on the matter. To be Roman in faith, one has to accept her POV of what is or is not

There is no “Roman faith,” there is the Catholic Faith, with various Traditions including Roman.

• **dogmatic **
• **definitive **
• **ecumenical. **

**Therefore, PI is binding in conscience. One is not metaphysically free to deny it - if one wants to be accepted as an RC. **

Catholicism does not distinguish between dogmas according as they are nearer to or farther from the First Truth in the hierarchy of truths - all dogmas are dogmas no matter where they are in that hierarchy. Papal infallibilty is as much to be believed as the definitions of Nicea I or Chalcedon; and for the same motive: it is as much a revealed truth as are the things defined by them. A convert who denies it after he has accepted it in the sense in which the CC receives & believes it, whether he has been a Catholic five minutes or fifty years, is as truly a heretic as Arius.

The Incarnation is expressed in several dogmas - it is also a “core doctrine”: Transubstantiation is not a core doctrine, but, it is expressed in a dogma. And, so too is papal infallibility; even though it is not as central to the heart of the ontological structure of the Church as the Incarnation is. It is not as theologically central - but is equally binding in conscience as that more central matter. ##

But the Latins sometimes don’t distinguish between when the Pope is speaking as Pope, Patriarch, or Bishop of Rome. We Easterns hold PI, but not exactly as Latins do. I think most TAC Anglicans would accept PI, they just don’t fully understand its meaning. It doesn’t mean that the Pope can interfere in every aspect of the local Church, that is what anti-Catholic’s usually argue. In the case of the Eastern Churches, the Pope cannot change our Liturgical Rites or Tradition, but he can in the Latin Church as Patriarch of the West.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

**
Traditional Ang:

Michael:

I didn’t know that part of what we were getting ourselves in for was rejection from our “fellow Catholics,” because they somehow believed that we hadn’t be made to do enough, or suffer enough…

…We usually discuss “what people are letting themselves in for” when the topic is PERSECUTION FOR BEING CATHOLIC!

**And, sometimes it’s important to let people have their euporia…They’ve had plenty of the other - ****

**## I distrust euphoria simply because there was a lot of it after Vatican II - & it was not very helpful. IMO it helped to “darken counsel” & to raise unrealistic hopes: which were then dashed, when they came into contact with the world as it is. I don’t want converts to suffer this kind of jolt, if it can be avoided. **
**Joy, is a very different matter. It does not blur vision, as euphoria too easily can. Joy strengthens - euphoria sets one chasing will-o’-the-wisps. **

The transition should be made as easy it possibly can; so, happy but misleading notions about one is taking on - if one has any - should (surely ?) be avoided. We are told to “count the cost” - something we can’t properly do, if we don’t know what our choices will require of us. And reception into the CC requires one to take on certain dogmatic, ethical, and other commitments. It’s only fair to tell people this - otherwise they will only be miserable & feel trapped & betrayed. To allow that to happen, when one could have helped to avoid it, would be quite wrong. ##
**

• I still can’t shake the feeling that you haven’t the slightest idea of what these people have gone through just to LEAVE the Anglican Communion they grew up in, and the persecution they’ve faced from their former friends and co-religionists!

## I haven’t; but I do know what it is like to switch Churches, and what I wished I had been told but was not. A lot of things cannot be taught - the requirements for entering the CC can be. It would be a great shame if anyone were to make a decision they later came to regret: which they might, if they had come in under illusions which could have been dispelled. This is too important a step to take with eyes not fully open. ##

If you did, You would be standing up on a chair cheering, just like Maggie is!

That’s why I think it’s important for you and Matt to ACKNOWLEDGE what these people have SACRIFICED and the PERSECUTION many of them have experienced at the hands of their former co-religionists!

Michael, have you been forced to leave a good job because you’re a Catholic?

Have most of your old friends stopped returning your phone calls and started harrassing your family because you’re a Catholic?

Have some of your old friends called you names you wouldn’t repeat in front of your mother because you’re a Catholic? Have they repeated some of these names to the press

Have they kicked you and your congregation out of your building because you’re Catholics? Have they called you tresspassers and worse in court briefs?

I’m just suggesting a walk in the shoes of the people who took me in 16 months ago.**

[continue…]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

[continued & ended]

**## Everyone has their problems - have I had those ? No. Others ? Yes. **
**It would be far easier to sympathise if one knew more of the detail. I know only what I’ve read in these two threads, & in pages indicated on them. And even so, only one side of the story has been given. And what one does not know, one does not & cannot acknowledge, however sympathetic one may be. **

Unfortunately, no amount of suffering can “do duty” for absence of believing what one should. “It is not the suffering, but the cause, that makes the martyr”, was a saying to which Hugh Latimer & Thomas Cranmer agreed as much as the Catholics they opposed. So if aspiring converts do not accept all the dogmas of the Church, they are not Catholics - not as much as they could & should be; no matter what they may have gone through. Their not doing so, may well be no fault of theirs at all - but one must still believe every dogma. ##

**

Michael, I believe the doctrines, so you’ve been preaching to the converted.

**## Excellent - do the others also realise that all the doctrines, including all dogmas, have to be accepted, if they are to be received as Catholics ? ##

**

Why didn’t you say this in one of the multiple posts you wrote about why Traditional Anglicans had to accept the Infallibility of the Pope?

**## That is why I just did. It did not occur to me that to say so explicitly would be necessary. ##

**

It would have been far more human than all the citations of the Code of the Law and the CCC.

One last thing - It is a CORE DOCTRINE of any thread I’m on that 1 Thread is Unreadable, So please…**## I’m not sure what that part of your post refers to. Sorry ##

**

Blessings and peace. Michael

**

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

**
Michael_Thoma:

There is no “Roman faith,” there is the Catholic Faith, with various Traditions including Roman.

**## I believe the phrase has appeared on occasion in ecclesiastical documents. Even if not, it is still perfectly accurate, unless one takes it in an exclusive sense. ##

---

---

**

But the Latins sometimes don’t distinguish between when the Pope is speaking as Pope, Patriarch, or Bishop of Rome.

****## There is indeed a difference - which was frequently mentioned in the pamphlets and books published after Vatican I. **

**I underlined the quality of *Romanitas ***because I wanted to emphasise the un-Anglican character of the CC; not because I was denying the Catholicity of the CC or confusing one Church with the whole Body as though its sister-Churches did not exist. ##

---

**

We Easterns hold PI, but not exactly as Latins do. I think most TAC Anglicans would accept PI, they just don’t fully understand its meaning. It doesn’t mean that the Pope can interfere in every aspect of the local Church, that is what anti-Catholic’s usually argue.

## That last sentence refers to a different dogma - that he has a “right of universal inspection”, or something similar. It is in Pastor Aeternus, anyway.
What does your own tradition teach about PI ? ##

In the case of the Eastern Churches, the Pope cannot change our Liturgical Rites or Tradition, but he can in the Latin Church as Patriarch of the West.

**## He has legal competence for being able to do so - but whether that is something he is morally competent to do, is something else. IOW, is doing so legitimately regarded as being within the Papal “fullness of power”? Some things are not - such as the abolition of the episcopate. Or, AFAIK, of a Rite. But not only are we getting into deep waters; one is also beginning to drift away from the thread ##

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Michael:

Regarding this first part, we could remedy that if you’d be willing to do some reading and search some archives. I could even e-mail over some materials if you have a public e-mail box…

## Everyone has their problems - have I had those ? No. Others ? Yes.
It would be far easier to sympathise if one knew more of the detail. I know only what I’ve read in these two threads, & in pages indicated on them. And even so, only one side of the story has been given. And what one does not know, one does not & cannot acknowledge, however sympathetic one may be.

…You can always start with this list:

Traditional Anglican Communion - The Messenger
themessenger.com.au/news.html
acahome.org/tac/index.htm

Forward in Faith
forwardinfaith.com/
forwardinfaith.com/about/na_index.html

VirtueOnLine.Org
listserv.episcopalian.org/scripts/wa.exe?A0=virtueonline&D=0&F=&H=0&O=T&S=&T=0
virtueonline.org/portal/

I think that if you get an idea of what these people have been going through, and for what reason, you’ll agree that their cause is just, and that they deserve consideration and prayers for their welfare and protection.

Believe it or not, the human approach almost always works best, exp. when you’re partner insists on using the LAW as a club. When that happens, and you don’t take a completely different tack, what you have is one very frustrated and annoyed correspondent on the receiving end. OUCH!!..

## That is why I just did. It did not occur to me that to say so explicitly would be necessary. ##

…That’s one reason I started talking about the American Church, because I really felt I wasn’t being listened to and was just being beaten up. OUCH!!

If you had done as you did the last few post then, ands maybe even told Matt to erase off, I guarantee you the conversation would have been much more pleasant for everybody concerned.

## I’m not sure what that part of your post refers to. Sorry ##

Take a look at the bottom of your posts - That saying’s in the smallest type available…

I’m not a young man, and I do have presbyopia, When you do an entire post like that, I really have to strain to read it.

The people running this forum have mercifully set the defaults at some pretty readable levels. You almost always have something to say. I’d concentrate on what you have to say and do as little formatting as possible.

Just so you know, the ME Forum I post on allows almost nothing except for Italics, Boldface Underlining and INDENTING. Because of that, doing those things is REAL EASY. LOL

Let the other people do all the fancy stuff. Then your tagline might stick out even more…

Blessings and Peace.

Michael

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

**
Traditional Ang:

Michael:

Regarding this first part, we could remedy that if you’d be willing to do some reading and search some archives. I could even e-mail over some materials if you have a public e-mail box…

…You can always start with this list:

Traditional Anglican Communion - The Messenger
[themessenger.com.au/news.html](http://www.themessenger.com.au/news.html)
[acahome.org/tac/index.htm](http://www.acahome.org/tac/index.htm)

Forward in Faith
[forwardinfaith.com/](http://www.forwardinfaith.com/)
[forwardinfaith.com/about/na_index.html](http://www.forwardinfaith.com/about/na_index.html)

VirtueOnLine.Org
[listserv.episcopalian.org/scripts/wa.exe?A0=virtueonline&D=0&F=&H=0&O=T&S=&T=0](http://listserv.episcopalian.org/scripts/wa.exe?A0=virtueonline&D=0&F=&H=0&O=T&S=&T=0)
[virtueonline.org/portal/](http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/)

I think that if you get an idea of what these people have been going through, and for what reason, you’ll agree that their cause is just, and that they deserve consideration and prayers for their welfare and protection.

Believe it or not, the human approach almost always works best, exp. when you’re partner insists on using the LAW as a club. When that happens, and you don’t take a completely different tack, what you have is one very frustrated and annoyed correspondent on the receiving end. OUCH!!..

…That’s one reason I started talking about the American Church, because I really felt I wasn’t being listened to and was just being beaten up. OUCH!!

If you had done as you did the last few post then, ands maybe even told Matt to erase off, I guarantee you the conversation would have been much more pleasant for everybody concerned.

**Take a look at the bottom of your posts - That saying’s in the smallest type available… **

I’m not a young man, and I do have presbyopia, When you do an entire post like that, I really have to strain to read it.

The people running this forum have mercifully set the defaults at some pretty readable levels. You almost always have something to say. I’d concentrate on what you have to say and do as little formatting as possible.

Just so you know, the ME Forum I post on allows almost nothing except for Italics, Boldface Underlining and INDENTING. Because of that, doing those things is REAL EASY. LOL

Let the other people do all the fancy stuff. Then your tagline might stick out even more…

Blessings and Peace.

Michael**

**## I type all my posts on this thread in navy blue bold 2-point Georgia font - I can’t account for the black unemphasised 2-point Arial font you seem to be getting at your end. **

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**What I do notice is that the formatting sometimes leaves text in black unemphasised 2-point Arial font. I have no idea why. I hope red is easier for you. I think this is an ugly size - but if you would find that easier, I’ll use it ## **

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Michael_Thoma:

It doesn’t mean that the Pope can interfere in every aspect of the local Church, that is what anti-Catholic’s usually argue. In the case of the Eastern Churches, the Pope cannot change our Liturgical Rites or Tradition, but he can in the Latin Church as Patriarch of the West.

Do I detect a whiff of that infamous ByzCatholic dissent? You are speaking out of memories retained from the time when your Churches were Orthodox, but what you are saying, while widely -and mistakenly- believed by the Eastern Catholics, is contrary to Catholic teachings. You may even have fallen under a papal anathema -see the last sentence of my message.

Using “interfere” is using a loaded word, but the Pope has full authority to do whatever he likes with the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Canon 331 states: “The office uniquely committed by the Lord to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, abides in the Bishop of the Church of Rome. He is the head of the College of Bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the Pastor of the universal Church here on earth. Consequently, by virtue of his office, he has supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church, and he can always freely exercise this power.”

And also…

piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm#Chapter%203.%20On%20the%20power%20and%20character%20of%20the%20primacy%20of%20the%20Roman%20pontiff

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.
. . .

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.

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“We are unchanged; we are still the same as we were in the eighth century… Oh that you could only consent to be again what you were once, when we were both united in faith and communion!”
-Alexis Khomiakov

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Matt:

These are are well fine and good, but somethings are missing…

Matt16_18:

Ask the Protestant to attend RCIA class as an inquirer. Make the Protestant feel welcome, and let the Protestant know that he is free to stay in the inquiry classes as long as he or she desires. Present a thorough and systematic presentation of Catholic beliefs. Pray for the Protestant and perform the rites of minor exorcism. Give the Protestant blessings. But above all, explain to the Protestant that Catholics do NOT believe in the ñmistaken notion of the autonomy of conscienceî. (CCC 1792)

…You didn’t mention anything about TALKING WITH the Brother in Christ or LISTENING TO the Brother in Christ, or PRAYING WITH the Brother in Christ or letting the Brother in Christ know that you CARE ABOUT him and what happens to him and that you’re available if he needs to talk or pray or go out for cofee or if he just needs someone to be with him. These imply a level of involvement that I believe the use of the word “Protestant” is meant to excuse you from if I’m not misdtaken.

I’m using the term Brother, because I’m assuming you’re a guy, and that would be done to help assure that there would be no impropriety.

The above is what the parishioners of St. Mary’s did for me after I crawled through the doors. You can read this post to get an idea of the shape I was in:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=468195&postcount=154

Matt, the Law is meant as a tutor to bring sinners to repentance and to inform our consciences by telling us the things that separate us from God…

Matt16_18:

Protestants often do not understand that the law is good (Romans 7:16 & 1Tim 1:8), and that GodÍs mercy is never in conflict with his justice. Protestant misunderstandings about the nature of justification should be cleared up in an RCIA class

…You didn’t use it as that. You used it as a CLUB to beat a fellow Christian, a brother in Christ. The LAW was never meant to be used for that, and Our Lord’s harshest words were for those who did just that.

Then the question persists as to why you accused Traditional Anglicans of heresy and of Mortal Sin? The LAW of the Church is quite clear about making unfounded accusations such as the one you’ve made…

Matt16_18:

I would never presume to know what is in another manÍs heart. How could I possibly know if an Anglican has kept himself separated from the Catholic Church out of ignorance or willful disobedience to the will of God? Only God knows what is in the heart of man. My obligation is to do what I can to help make disciples of all nations. God desires all people to be in full communion with his church - the Catholic Church.

…Unless, you’re trying to say that you just might be guilty of the sin of presumption. If you are, don’t you think that an APOLOGY and a RETRACTION are both in order?

Matt, you know this statement is ludicrous. It’s the equivalent of telling someone who’s arrived at the ER with a simple fracture that he can’t be in pain because someone else arrived with a near-fatal gunshot wound! We both know how far you’d get with trying to do that, and we both know that comparing people’s suffering and persecution is WRONG in the same way that comparing people’s sins are…

Matt16_18:

Persecution? Are you trying to compare what liberal Anglicans have done to their former co-religionists with the real persecutions that Christians have endured? I have met men that have lived for years in the Soviet Gulag and in Communist Chinese prisons rather than deny the Catholic faith. ArenÍt you perhaps being a wee bit over-dramatic here?

…I have a HOLOCAUST Survivor who’s dying of end stage Parkinsons who lives down the hall from me. A few months ago, half the Republicans of West Hollywood met in the swimming pool of the Gym I go to. Half of them were HOLOCAUST Survivors. One of them survived the HOLOCAUST only to fall under the tyranny of the Soviets. One of people I tried to sell a car to 13 years ago died in one of the bombings in Israel - She was a Holocaust Survivor.

None of this diminishes what my friends in the TAC have gone through at the hands of the RADICALS who’ve taken over ECUSA and the Anglican Communion (++Canterbury).

The fact that it does so for you is a defect in EMPATHY.

To be Con.

Blessings, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Matt:

Con. from Previous.

If you’ll re-read just what it took to bring me back through the doors of any Church, and see the shape I was in, I think you’ll understand that I needed a much smaller body than your typical RC Congregation, and that I needed priests and parishioners who had a LOT more time to spend per person than the typical RC congregation…

Matt16_18:

If you believe all the doctrines of the Catholic Church, then why are you still an Anglican?

Ratzinger has stated on the LINE by LINE that the ORDERS of the Priests at St. Mary’s are valid. So, I have access to valid Sacraments and a CONFESSOR whom I trust.

The priests and parishioners at St. Mary’s have demonstrated that they care for me as a person and as a brother in Christ. One doesn’t leave such things lightly.

The TAC is definitely moving towards communion with Rome. And in this case, I know who Rome would rule me through and I trust them.

I live in an Archdiocese that’s arguably on the edge of Heresy, and I (along with many conservative Catholics) don’t trust the Cardinal here.

So, for the time being, I’m content to “Grow where I’m planted”.

If the talks between the TAC and Rome go South, and I find myself in a Diocese with a more trustworthy Archbishop Ordinary, I would definitely have to change my location.

Please, pray that the talks between Rome the TAC proceed successfully and swiftly.

Blessings and peace.

Michael

 

[MaggieOH]

oat soda:

many people here are serious about thier faith and want to express this here. nobody is forcing non catholics to be here. not everyone is as sensitive as you.

the bottom line is those who remain separated from the catholic church except by invincible ignorance risk going to hell, including anglo catholics.

Oat Soda,

excuse me for pointing out that I am not “sensitive”. However, I am ashamed at the way that fellow Catholics are treating this subject.

If someone is serious about their faith, then he/she should be serious about spreading the Gospel message, and not by trying to put barriers in the way of reconciliation with sections of the Boby of Christ.

The bottom line is, that God will not distinguish who will get into heaven according to religious affiliation. The bottom line is, those who accept Christ will be judged according to their sins. The bottom line is, that only those who have not had the opportunity to hear the Gospel message and who have lived a life according to the righteousness of God, will be judged according to His Mercy.

Since we have well and truly passed the age of the Reformation, the Church also looks at the fact that there are Christians who are born into these other denominations and have never had the opportunity to know the fullness of the Truth. At the same time they do have the truth and they are our brothers and sisters in Christ, even if some are too arrogant to accept that fact.

The bottom line with regard to the TAC happens to be that they do follow what was in place before Henry VIII caused the split that devastated the Catholic Church in England. Of course after that time there were further splits and then portions of what remained as the Anglican Church have become too liberal for their own good. The bottom line is, that the liberals have gone too far and at last many good Christian men and women are waking up to the fact of the lies that have been told to them.

Of course there is work to be done and every assistance should be given to pave the way for a reconciliation between the TAC and Rome. That includes an education process as well as the talks that are still going on.

If you had bothered to read the report that I typed in from a local newspaper you should have recognized that the situation is really quite critical. Bishop Chislet is under threat of being “excommunicated” from the Anglican communion. Considering the position of the current Australian primate Peter Carnley that might be a good thing. What it means is that the TAC is in jeopardy of losing its church property here in Australia.

If the people who want to join with Rome are members of the High Church of England then there is very little that separates them and us, and we have to acknowledge that fact so that they will feel as though they are wanted, not as though they are nothing more than pieces of fluff to be blown around because nobody cares for their spiritual welfare.

We who are members of the Catholic Church do not live by the “Law”, whilst we do live by the Ten Commandments.

Surely it is not too much to ask that some charity is shown towards Michael and those who belong to the Anglican communion and who are agonizing over the decisions that they have to make.

Tell me, have you ever seen an Anglican who believes so much in the Eucharist that he or she was absolutely hungering for it? I have. Do you want to know why? Because nobody from the local Anglican Church was coming to visit her in the retirement village. She was being neglected. Someone has to look after people who are so well disposed to the Sacraments.

MaggieOH

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Michael:

This is what your post looks like when I don’t strip out all of the “Special Instructions”…

****

## I type all my posts on this thread in navy blue bold 2-point Georgia font - I can’t account for the black unemphasised 2-point Arial font you seem to be getting at your end.

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**What I do notice is that the formatting sometimes leaves text in black unemphasised 2-point Arial font. I have no idea why. I hope red is easier for you. I think this is an ugly size **- but if you would find that easier, I’ll use it ##

…I’ve become very adept at FINDING them, because it allows me to separate the paragraphs I want to respond to. Otherwise, there’s NO telling how LONG…LONG my responses to you would be, or how confusing.

I hope it’s easier to understand when you can see the segment I’m responding to.

The Blue is actually OK. It’s the one point the drives my eyes batty! And, believe it or not, I like the black typeface unless you’re emphasizing something. with today’s monitors, it’s actually much more easy to read.

What you might do is take one of my posts and one of yours and place them side by side in two separate windows and see which one’s easiest to read and easiest on the eyes. You’ll be surprised.

And, mine’s easier to put in the computer, except for my wretched typing skills. :whacky:

Blessings and peace, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Fr. Ambrose:

What you are saying is that the Pope still has “authority” over the Eastern Catholic Churches…
Fr Ambrose:

You are speaking out of memories retained from the time when your Churches were Orthodox, but what you are saying, while widely -and mistakenly- believed by the Eastern Catholics, is contrary to Catholic teachings. You may even have fallen under a papal anathema -see the last sentence of my message.

Using “interfere” is using a loaded word, but the Pope has full authority to do whatever he likes with the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Canon 331 states: ÒThe office uniquely committed by the Lord to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, abides in the Bishop of the Church of Rome. He is the head of the College of Bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the Pastor of the universal Church here on earth. Consequently, by virtue of his office, he has supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church, and he can always freely exercise this power.Ó

And also…

piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm#Chapter%203.%20On%20the%20power%20and%20character%20of%20the%20primacy%20of%20the%20Roman%20pontiff

…I’m pretty sure that Michael Thoma understands that. The FACT is that most Popes have pretty much allowed the Eastern Catholic Churches to govern themselves as long as they don’t have any problems, and they’ve been quite loathe to go back on the agreements they made with them.

The other fact is they haven’t had to worry about problems or conflicts with local Archbishop Ordinaries, because they have their own.

Blessings and peace, Michael

 

[Matt16_18]

Traditional Ang:

You didn’t mention anything about TALKING WITH the Brother in Christ or LISTENING TO the Brother in Christ, or PRAYING WITH the Brother in Christ or letting the Brother in Christ know that you CARE ABOUT him and what happens to him and that you’re available if he needs to talk or pray or go out for cofee or if he just needs someone to be with him. These imply a level of involvement that I believe the use of the word “Protestant” is meant to excuse you from if I’m not misdtaken.

You are mistaken in your presumptuous speculations about me. All these things I would gladly do.

You don’t seem to understand the RCIA program at all. Once a convert decides move past the step of inquirer in an RCIA program, he or she would need to have a sponsor. A sponsor is a believing Catholic whose primary duty is to do exactly these things.

You used [the Law] as a CLUB to beat a fellow Christian …

How have I used the Law as a club? What exactly are you talking about? All I am saying is that any Anglican that desires to enter the Catholic Church will have to accept every infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, not just the “core doctrines” that Anglicans define as being the “core doctrines”. It seems to me that you are struggling with this reality, and that you still are hoping that somehow the Anglicans can enter the Catholic Church without accept the dogma of papal infallibility.

I have a HOLOCAUST Survivor who’s dying of end stage Parkinsons who lives down the hall from me.

I know holocaust survivors too. What does our knowing holocaust survivors have to do with this thread? Are you trying to compare whatever discomfort liberal Anglicans have inflicted on their TAC brethren to the suffering of those who survived the horror of Nazi death camps? If so, you have trivialized the sufferings of those that lived through the holocaust.

This thread would be much better if you and MaggieOH would refrain from making ad hominem attacks.