Anglicans to Rome - Thread 2

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Irenicist:
We aren’t talking about all Anglicans in general. We are talking specifically about the TAC. Labelling them as “Protestant” (a label they apparently reject, btw) really has no bearing on the situation. We had previously labelled Chaldeans as “Nestorian” and Syrians as “Monophysite” without this proving to be an inherent bar to their recognition as Churches.

Shared faith is indeed the normal test for eligibility for communion. So far we agree. But the decision to make it so is a disciplinary, not a doctrinal one even if the test decided on is itself doctrinal. Just because doctrine is involved in a practice does not mean the practice is inherently doctrinal.

Let me demonstrate this with a mildly trivial but broadly analogous example. A bishop decides that he is going to reward good cathechism students at a parochial school with a fully funded school trip. He sets successful recitation of the Creed as the test. You will agree, I trust, that this test is implicitly a doctrinal one. Yet the decision to set this test and abide by the results is a disciplinary one.

The Catholic Church does extend communion in extremis to separated members of the Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome (albeit, this is not reciprocated by the Eastern Orthodox), but who are unable to receive communion from a priest of their own Churches. The communicants in this case clearly do not profess the whole Catholic faith. This, in and of itself, strongly suggests that the issue is a disciplinary one, unless you wish to suggest that the Holy Father is somehow guilty of apostasy.

This decision is tied to a doctrinal test in that it rests on the recognition on the validity of Eastern orders and on the shared understanding of the significance of the eucharist. But the decision to apply this particular test is “disciplinary”, not “doctrinal”, and the test itself does not extend to a requirement for full orthodoxy on the part of the recipient.

No Ecumenical Council has ever defined this practice as “a matter of faith”. As the practice has changed and evolved over the years, it would be difficult to argue that it is part of the Church’s unchanging Tradition. Like priestly celibacy, the use of azimes, or the use of girls’ choirs, it is a simply a disciplinary matter (albeit a very serious one). Disciplinary rules can be changed and modified by the Holy Father for the good of the Church.

There is an important distinction between the practice surrounding individual conversions (or even the conversion of whole parishes), and that associated with a reunion of Churches. If the negative argument rests entirely on a denial of the TAC’s status as a Church, then we should perhaps restrict the discussion to the validity of its orders and its doctrinal understanding of the sacraments.

Simply labelling the TAC broad brush as “Protestant” is not going to resolve anything, even if the label sticks. Quibbling over the Marian doctrines and papal infallibility would not be relevant to the issue at hand either, as belief in these doctrines is not normally considered a test of whether a denomination qualifies as a Church, else the separated Eastern Churches would not fully qualify either.

It is entirely understandable that some might feel slighted by having had to pass a different (and arguably more stringent) test as individual converts for access to communion. This should not blind us, however, to the reality that the Catholic Church allows for a different approach when faced with the opportunity for a full reunion of separated Churches. Individual converts have to face a more stringent test because their denominations of origin are not prepared to cross the Tiber into the Catholic faith as a body with them. If their original denominations had been more appropriately disposed, the test would have been the same as that applied to all the members of the Eastern Churches that have reunited as a body with Rome over the centuries.

Irenicist
Irenicist:

Thank you for your comments and your prayers.

I am afraid that Matt has made up his mind, and isn’t going to listen, but at least TAC members reading the thread will see that his isn’t the only, or even the majority opinion.

For that I am grateful.

Peace be upon you and upon your household, Michael
 
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Irenicist:
You will have to forgive me as I still haven’t mastered the quoting functions on this site.

There is one set of practical rules for admitting converts to the Church as individuals, but there is another set of rules for the reincorporation of formerly dissident Churches as a whole. When you come to the Church as an individual, you join an existing Catholic parish, and receive individualized religious instruction.

When a whole Church is brought into reunion with Rome, however, only its clergy is subjected to the sort of doctrinal tests you suggest. If necessary, this clergy is reordained (sub-conditione or otherwise) and invariably it is instructed to teach the “whole Catholic faith” (including all the doctrines brought up in this discussion) to its flock.

But no Latin rite ordinary goes around testing and, if necessary, reconfirming each of these new Catholics. This task is left to that Church’s clergy. If this now Catholic clergy fails in this task of instruction, either through neglect or through resistance on the part of all or part of the flock, the Holy See applies the appropriate disciplinary sanctions (which may extend to excommunication).

Over time, the end result of individual conversions and reunion is the same. New Catholics are brought into the fold and into full acceptance of the whole of the Catholic faith. The means and timeframes are different, however, and you cannot generalize from your own experience as a convert.

If you doubt that this distinction is made, consider that this has been the method followed for each and every one of the Eastern Churches which were brought back into reunion with Rome. This is a disciplinary practice that has almost eight centuries of precedents.

I also do not think it would be valid to argue that Anglicans can only be accepted as individual converts because their rite (suitably purged of heretical accressions) is only four centuries old. How ancient does a Church have to be before it can recognized as following a distinct but valid rite?

Given that Trad Anglican’s inital understanding regarding a specific offer has proven ill founded, we are now dealing with a largely hypothetical case. What then would be objectively required for the TAC to be admitted into full communion with Rome? Here, for purposes of discussion would be my suggested terms of union:
4 Conditions follow…
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Irenicist:
As access to communion is a disciplinary issue, the Holy Father would be fully authorized to extend an offer such as I have described above simply by virtue of his Petrine function. Whether such an offer would be wise or expedient is, of course, subject to legitimate discussion. Similar offers, however, have achieved some notable success in the past with Eastern Churches which, on the surface, shared far less with the Catholic Church than does the TAC. The Eastern Catholic Churches have not as a result become the reservoirs of heretical dissent some suggest the ACC would be.

Trad Anglican,

Would these terms meet both the requirements of Justice and Mercy you seek?

Irenicist
Irenicist:

Sounds fair enough and probably like what they’ve been negotiating in the Vatican .

Meanwhile, before I go to sleep, when you’re in the posting screen, and you want to do what I do…Do you know how to Copy-Paste? If you do, this is easy…First Copy the “[QOUTE Name of poster]”. Then, at the start of each paragraph you want to post, Paste it…Then, find the “” at the end of the post Copy that and Paste it at the end of each paragraph you’ve plaved the "
Understand that in the above, I’ve doctored things a little bit so as not to screw up the post, When you’re posting, those two things in [Brackets] will be in ALL CAPS.
That should allow you to seperate out paragraphs for quotation. Irenicist, I hope that helps.
Thank you for you kind words and prayers.
Peace to you and your household, Michael
 
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MaggieOH:
Boethius,

I am saddened that you think, that I, a cradle Catholic is not happy for all who want to leave what has become true heresy.

I am delighted by these moves and I am praying that this will happen.

I believe that all must bend just that little bit so that we can be One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and the aim should be that we are once more united, such that the heretics of those other denominations are left to their own devices.

I have been to a few of the TAC websites, and I am convinced that they do in fact accept the doctrines and dogma of the Catholic faith. Whatever barriers remain I am certain, that through prayerful consideration these can be mounted too.

Congratulations on your own decision to leave the ECUSA and join the Catholic Church. I am certain that you are making the right decision for you and your family. May God be with you during your time in RCIA.

MaggieOH
Maggie:

Thank you for your kind words and for your encouragement of Boethius.

I think he’s a good man and will make a fine Catholic.

Thank you for your prayers for my friends and for myself. They are appreciated.

Goodnight.

May God richly bless you, Michael
 
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boethius:
MaggieOH,

Thank you for your kind reply. Your voice has been one of the few positive ones during the last few days (weeks).

I don’t have the time and energy to analyze why so many of the posts to this thread (like its predecessor) have been so uncharitable. Perhaps it is the nature of the medium and perhaps it is because this is part of an “apologetics” apostolate. So often, these things have a way of devolving into misunderstanding and the parading of one’s own erudition.

The bottom line seems to be that (sooner or later) the T.A.C. will enter into full communion with Rome. This will, no doubt, be done on terms that honor both the deposit of faith and the dignity of those Anglicans who are submitting to the Bishop of Rome. When this reunion occurs, it will be (I think) of momentous historical significance, being the first healing of the breach caused by the sixteenth-century de-/reformation. Will those who have been doubting the Pope’s competence to insure that reunion occurs on the proper terms rejoice at that time? Or will they continue to be skeptical, assuming that the Anglicans must be smuggling in heresy and thereby raining on the parade (who appointed them to be judges anyway?!!)? Deo volente, the reunion will occur in our lifetimes.

Until then, many of us will be crossing on our own (and avoiding electronic forums).

Cheers,
Boethius
Boethius,

I will be praying for your journey to Rome. I know that you are not alone in the step that you are taking. I know that there is considerable pain in making that journey because you will be leaving a part of your life behind. Yet I also know that once you have made the crossing your faith journey will be enriched.

You can always send me a private email or message if you feel that you need further support.

MaggieOH
 
Traditional Ang:
GKC:

ARCIC and the Original “Gift of Authority” were both products of talks between the Catholic Church and the Anglican communion (++Canterbury)…

…I was even subjected to communtary on it by Griswald of all people! Talk about the BLIND LEADING THE BLIND!

I wouldn’t mind, but some friends of mine are getting ready for a shooting war in Israel, and there’s not a blasted thing I can do to stop it!

So please, NO pursuit of the perigrinated waterfowl!! Please…

Blessings and Peace, Michael
Michael,

Why yes, I 'm aware of the origin of “Gift of Authority”. While the ARCIC, started with such high good hopes by Paul VI and Michael Ramsey as Archbishop of Canterbury, rapidly declined in usefulness as ECUSA did the same, still, “Gift” was a document I found interesting. And your statement, as I quoted it, seemed to say that you were unable to locate a copy of “Gift” on line. That was my interpretation of what you said, anyway. And why I said "If you mean “Gift of Authority…” in my post.

As to what you are saying in this message, I couldn’t guess. Experience seems to indicates I’m not skilled in that art.

GKC
 
Of course none of this is to discount what Anglican Use Parishes have to go through to join the Catholic Church. I just wish they didn’t have this habit of becoming NO parishes after 15 or 20 years, as has been the case.
i think diversity can be good and VII declared all recognized rites equivelent in dignity and the church is to preserve and foster them in every way. it’s possible that a future normative mass will be allowed to incorporate more of the tridentine elements esp. if ratzinger is our next pope. in this case i would think there would be little difference between the anglican rite liturgy and the normative liturgy.

of course, the church has always had different variations of the liturgy in the west. in pre council of trent different variations of the roman rite mass flourished in europe.
 
Oat Sada:

Some diversity is good. But I’m afraid that there are those who want their kind of diversity, which may include things that make many traditional or conservative Catholics cringe, but are adament about excluding the very things those conservative Catholics want (Tridentine and Indult Latin Masses still aren’t a regular fixture in many dioceses, in spite of the clear instructions of Pope John Paul II). I’m afraid that many of the same people who are resistive of those are also resistive of the Pastoral Provision for the Anglican Use (that’s why the parishes die after 15 years or so) and the possibility of an Anglican Rite (Anglican Catholic Church a la the Eastern Catholics)…
oat soda:
i think diversity can be good and VII declared all recognized rites equivelent in dignity and the church is to preserve and foster them in every way. it’s possible that a future normative mass will be allowed to incorporate more of the tridentine elements esp. if ratzinger is our next pope. in this case i would think there would be little difference between the anglican rite liturgy and the normative liturgy.
…And these people are the ones controlling the Liturgical Committees in the American Church.

If I remember correctly, Cardnial Spelling, when asked about the directives to create a new litergy, pointed to an Anglican Missal and said the Anglicans had already done the work for them…Needless to say, his suggestion wasn’t adapted.
oat soda:
of course, the church has always had different variations of the liturgy in the west. in pre council of trent different variations of the roman rite mass flourished in europe.
One of those was a liturgy the Irish did in sometime around the 7th Century, The Lorra Liturgy or Missal. Fr. Ambrose linked it a few weeks ago. It’s actually quite beautiful but also a little strange:

illusions.com/rowanhold/stowe.htm
illusions.com/rowanhold/stowe2.htm

I’m sure it was done in either Latin or Gaelic, so this is a translation. I hope you enjoy reading it.

May Our Lord bless you and keep you.

Michael
 
Traditional Ang:
Michael:

Pope John Paul II just had a Tracheotomy. He had another Breathing episode this morning where he just couldn’t breath, and this effectively takes the issue away from his throat muscles which aren’t working properly.

The same thing was done to Cheif Justice Reihnquist in December. If you have time to say some extra prayers, you might want to add him in. I have for past last few weeks.

Blessings and peace, Michael
Not to me morbid here but what happens to the TAC talks should the present Pope pass away is their another person helping the Pope on this ecunemical task?
 
Traditional Ang:
One of those was a liturgy the Irish did in sometime around the 7th Century, The Lorra Liturgy or Missal. Fr. Ambrose linked it a few weeks ago. It’s actually quite beautiful but also a little strange:

illusions.com/rowanhold/stowe.htm
illusions.com/rowanhold/stowe2.htm

I’m sure it was done in either Latin or Gaelic, so this is a translation. I hope you enjoy reading it.
Dear Michael and all,

The Lorrha Missal is now kept at the Royal Irish Academy and they have put the full text of the book on line in facsimile form. It takes a bit of an effort to get used to reading uncial Latin but it is worth persevering 🙂

Go to this site
isos.dias.ie/english/index.html

Click on Stowe Missal in the left column.
 
THE first ordination of a married priest into the Roman Catholic
Church in Scotland is to take place tomorrow. (2nd March)

The Rev James Bell, a former priest of the Scottish Episcopal Church, will be ordained by the Bishop of Aberdeen, Peter Moran, at St Mary’s Church in Inverness.

Full story:
news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=225712005
 
Fr Ambrose:
THE first ordination of a married priest into the Roman Catholic
Church in Scotland is to take place tomorrow. (2nd March)

The Rev James Bell, a former priest of the Scottish Episcopal Church, will be ordained by the Bishop of Aberdeen, Peter Moran, at St Mary’s Church in Inverness.

Full story:
news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=225712005
This is wonderful and most welcome news because it shows that there is something special happening within Christianity.

I pray that the movement will become stronger and stronger until we are all united.

Maggie
 
Dear Michael,

Thank you for your reply to my post. I certainly understand your point about entering the Catholic Church as a RITE and thereby guaranteeing the long term survival of your special features, especially of course the beautiful liturgy. I can understand why you would like to enter the Church as your own rite, because this protects you from interference by “trendy” Catholic bishops and local authorities.
When the first Episcopalians approached Rome that is exactly what they would have liked. However, partly due to objections from local Catholic bishops, and to their relatively small numbers, this was not to be. To their credit they did not insist on it and became Catholics on the conditions Rome set at the time.
My point remains, that the Catholic Church, whether it accepts your group as a RITE or on the terms set to the original Episcopalians who now form the Anglican Use Catholics, will only be able to receive your group on the condition that if it accepts ALL the doctrines of the Church and that bishops are not married. Rome made it clear to the original Epsicopalian converts that these conditions were absolutely non negotiable. Given the courage of faith of the Anglican Use Catholics I would urge your group to consult with them and approach Rome on these terms. By all means ask for your own rite, but on the Catholic Church’s terms not on your own terms.
If you do this I believe you will have a strong chance of success. I pray to God for your success on these terms.
 
The original news
Report says Vatican approves lay sermons in Switzerland

Tablet Mis-reporting on Swiss Laity to Preach & Protestants to Receive Communion? - a report on the report, denying it

New Reports Deny That Vatican Has Approved Lay Sermons In Switzerland

CatholicCitizens.org

Prostestantization sic] of the Catholic Church Update: Lay sermons permitted, Vatican tells Swiss bishops
Sunday, February 13, 2005
Proposals by Swiss bishops to allow lay theologians to give sermons and Protestants to receive Communion have met with the approval of the Curia in Rome, Bishop Amédée Grab, president of the Swiss bishops’ conference, said this week.

The Swiss church is having to cope with a shortage of priests and in an effort to deal with the crisis its bishops’ conference has come up with controversial plans to make greater use of the laity serving as pastoral assistants. The Swiss bishops’ conference has now declared that the assistants (who hold university degrees in theology) are to be allowed to preach during Mass and baptise whenever a priest was not available. The bishops, who announced to journalists following their return from their ad limina visit to Rome that they have secured Curial backing for their plans, have also secured the necessary permission for the Protestant partner in a mixed marriage to receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church. The general secretary of the Swiss bishops’ conference, Agnell Rickenmann, said that the two declarations were partly a response to the shortage of priests in Switzerland, but also reflected the Swiss Church’s “independence”. He said: “In Switzerland we have a 30-year tradition of theologically trained lay people active in the Church.”

Accusations that the declarations were against canon law and contradicted last year’s Vatican edict that only priests could give sermons, were quick to follow. Pro Ecclesia, a conservative Catholic group, said it looked very much as if, shortly before setting out for Rome, the Swiss bishops were determined to “present the Vatican with a fait accompli”. It was also reported that Austrian and German bishops had berated the Swiss bishops at the annual liturgical conference (for bishops in German-speaking countries, including South Tyrol and Luxembourg) in Augsburg at the end of January for “pressing ahead of the world Church” on such matters.

But the Swiss bishops were not hauled over the coals during their five-day ad limina visit to Rome. On the contrary, Bishop Grab said on his return, this had been his fourth ad limina visit and he had “never returned so happy”. The head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, had told the Swiss bishops that in emergency cases lay theologians could hold a “brief sermon-like discourse” or a meditation based on the Mass for the day but that this should not be allowed to become the “general norm”.

thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/register.cgi/citw#Europe ##
 
A brief picture of what it is the Catholic Church will be getting when the TAC Unites with the Catholic Church:

One of the Priests at parish (I’ll call him B. attend used to a Physician’s Assistant. For the last 17 years of his career, he worked with AIDS patients. One day, one of his patients (who was dying) was very depressed.

The people at the Hospice found the B. and brought him to his very depressed patient who was sure that he was going to hell. A local protestant minister had refused to Baptize him upon finding out that he was dying of AIDS.

B. comforted his patient by saying, “Maybe that was God’s way of telling you that wasn’t where he wanted you to go.” He then contacted the Rector of St. Mary’s who arranged to Baptize this patient ASAP as soon as some basic instruction could be done.

It turned out, that, because of the progress of his diease, B.'s patient wouldn’t be able to live to be confirmed during the Bishop’s regularly schuled visit.

One of these “Flying Bishops” from Africa, a bishop from Nigeria, found out about this, and asked if he could divert his trip and confirm him before he died.

The Bishop from Nigeria did that, and then stayed to give him his final Communion and the Last Rites of the Church before he died surrounded by his family and friends.

The reconciliation that allowed many of these family and friends to come to their friend’s bedside was facilitated by B. and by the Rector at St. Mary’s.

The man who died of AIDS, who was denied baptism by a protestant minister, was Baptized in a Public ceremony at St. Mary’s, was Confirmed by a “Flying Bishop” who specifically diverted his trip just for him, is now burried in a place of honor on sacred ground per ancient custom.

The “Flying Bishop” has already been heard from at the Anglican Communion (++Canterbury) Synod.

This is what Traditional Anglicans are like.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
RJS 1:

Most of your post was good - There is some thought that this Pope and future Popes might use the Anglican Missal as a basis for liturgical reform to restore some of the beauty and the majesty to the Novus Ordo.

In which case, having us united with the Church would be most convenient.

As Abp Hepworth has said repeatedly, the TAC and Continuing Anglicanism desparately need structure and leadership. He believes (and I agree) that will come best from Rome)…
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rjs1:
Dear Michael,

Thank you for your reply to my post. I certainly understand your point about entering the Catholic Church as a RITE and thereby guaranteeing the long term survival of your special features, especially of course the beautiful liturgy. I can understand why you would like to enter the Church as your own rite, because this protects you from interference by “trendy” Catholic bishops and local authorities.
When the first Episcopalians approached Rome that is exactly what they would have liked. However, partly due to objections from local Catholic bishops, and to their relatively small numbers, this was not to be. To their credit they did not insist on it and became Catholics on the conditions Rome set at the time.
My point remains, that the Catholic Church, whether it accepts your group as a RITE or on the terms set to the original Episcopalians who now form the Anglican Use Catholics, will only be able to receive your group on the condition that if it accepts ALL the doctrines of the Church and that bishops are not married. Rome made it clear to the original Epsicopalian converts that these conditions were absolutely non negotiable. Given the courage of faith of the Anglican Use Catholics I would urge your group to consult with them and approach Rome on these terms. By all means ask for your own rite, but on the Catholic Church’s terms not on your own terms.
If you do this I believe you will have a strong chance of success. I pray to God for your success on these terms.
I agree with you about the Doctrine…Even if the pope were to make some sort of agreement for temporary partial Communion (See the article on Switzerland in Gottle of Geer’s post), we wouild want to advance beyond that to FULL COMMUNION, and that would require accepting all of the doctrines of the Church.

However, I do know that at least the present group of married Bishops is being accepted “as is” by the Vatican - They offered to resign, and the Vatican said, “NO!” Discussions are about the length of the transition period where other married Bishops will be consecrated, because almost all of our Priests are married, and we will work our way to the practice of Celebate Bishops as more Celebate Priests are ordained.

Just so you know, we see our Bishops more frequently than you do, and we have more per person and per Priest. In 17 months, I’ve met mine 2x, my Primate and 2 guests. I still have NO idea of how to address a Bishop! And Bishop CAG (Bishop James Stewart) doesn’t seem to care!

I could live without the “Trendier than thou’s” - I had enough of that over in ECUSA! And, I knew some of the first group, and some of the LOCALS were what kept them out.

Goodnight Comrades.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
Traditional Ang:
Even if the pope were to make some sort of agreement for temporary partial Communion (See the article on Switzerland in Gottle of Geer’s post), we wouild want to advance beyond that to FULL COMMUNION, and that would require accepting all of the doctrines of the Church.
I am glad to see that you now believe that Anglicans must accept all the doctrines of the Catholic Church in order to be in perfect communion with Christ’s Church.

The Eucharist cannot be offered to anyone that does not accept the doctrines of the Catholic Church. I don’t believe that the Vatican is ever going to allow the Protestant spouses of Swiss Catholics to receive the Eucharist. That would be blasphemy.
However, I do know that at least the present group of married Bishops is being accepted “as is” by the Vatican - They offered to resign, and the Vatican said, “NO!” Discussions are about the length of the transition period where other married Bishops will be consecrated, because almost all of our Priests are married, and we will work our way to the practice of Celebate Bishops as more Celebate Priests are ordained.
It is a matter of discipline, not doctrine, that bishops should be celibate. Peter was married. Rome can certainly be flexible on this point of discipline.
 
Matt:

I always believed that Anglicans would eventually need to accept the doctrines of the Catholic Curch as laid out in Ecumenical Councils.

I was simply defending the Pope’s right as Supreme Pontiff and Holder of the Keys of Peter to make an offer of “FULL COMMUNION” if he believed it was necessary to further the cause Christian Unity among those who hold the essentials of the Catholic Faith.
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Matt16_18:
I am glad to see that you now believe that Anglicans must accept all the doctrines of the Catholic Church in order to be in perfect communion with Christ’s Church.
It still bothers me that those who were most adament on that subject either came from the national Church with the most problems accepting the dogmas of the Church or who have challenged the dogmas themselves in other threads I can list the posts if you want in a private letter and you can check them out if you want):

Matt, the article didn’t say what “denomination” the “protestants” were. They could very well be disaffected Anglicans possibly covered under the Roman Canons described below.
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Matt16_18:
The Eucharist cannot be offered to anyone that does not accept the doctrines of the Catholic Church. I don’t believe that the Vatican is ever going to allow the Protestant spouses of Swiss Catholics to receive the Eucharist. That would be blasphemy.
Vatican II has already offerred communion to Eastern Orthodox who find themselves forced to visit Catholic Churches by necessity, the same with Communicants from the Polish National Catholic Church and various other bodies who have disputes, but “Impaired” or “Partial” Communion, with Rome.

The present Roman Canon Law is clear on the issue - A Communicant from another Church may receive the Sacrament in the Catholic Church provided certain conditions are met:
  1. The communicant has been properly Baptized with a Triune Baptism and water.
  2. The Communicant holds the Catholic Faith to the best of his or her ability.
  3. The communicant would NORMALLY RECEIVE in his or her own Church is not prohibited from doing so at that time.
  4. The Communicant is unable to do so at his or her own Church due to geography or some other compelling reason (a woman “priest” being the celebrant at the mass is compelling reason).
I’ve personally benefitted from that a few times in the past, and it may be the Grace from then that God used to yank me back 17 months ago.
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Matt16_18:
It is a matter of discipline, not doctrine, that bishops should be celibate. Peter was married. Rome can certainly be flexible on this point of discipline.
You have actually said something that I can agree with you on.

Whom the Catholic Church gives Communion to is also a matter of discipline, too. That discipline, though, should be set by the Holy Pontiff.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
Traditional Ang:
Matt:

I always believed that Anglicans would eventually need to accept the doctrines of the Catholic Curch as laid out in Ecumenical Councils.
The Anglicans will not only have to accept the solemnly defined dogmas of twenty-one Ecumenical Councils, but they will have to accept all the infallible teachings that have been received by the Church through the ordinary and universal Magisterium.
Some Catholics mistakenly try to limit infallibility to only those teachings that are solemnly defined. … The ordinary and universal Magisterium is the normal or usual means by which the Pope and the bishops in union with him infallibly propose teachings to the whole Church.

Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth: The Infallible Magisterium of the Catholic ChurchDogmas that have been solemnly defined at Ecumenical Councils and by papal ex cathedra pronouncements are relatively few. These comprise the infallible teachings that have been received by the Church through the extraordinary exercise of the Magisterium. The vast majority of the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church have been received through the ordinary and universal Magisterium. This includes nearly all the infallible moral teachings of the Church, and this is the greatest barrier for accepting Anglicans into the Catholic Church. The Anglicans will have to renounce divorce and artificial contraception before they can ever be allowed to receive the Eucharist.
Whom the Catholic Church gives Communion to is also a matter of discipline, too. That discipline, though, should be set by the Holy Pontiff.
There are some matters concerning the reception of the Eucharist (e.g. the age at which one can receive) that are disciplinary. Other matters are of the faith, and not matters of discipline. The Pope has no authority to offer the Eucharist to adults that know what the Catholic Church infallibly teaches and who willfully reject that those teachings. That formal heretics cannot receive the Eucharist is a matter of faith, not discipline.
 
Maggie:

This will automatically and dramatically increase the number of mature men available to serve God in his Church as priests as soon as it’s generally accepted.
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MaggieOH:
This is wonderful and most welcome news because it shows that there is something special happening within Christianity.

I pray that the movement will become stronger and stronger until we are all united.

Maggie
I believe you will find that this is a big reason the Orthodox have not had the problem with vocations that the Catholic Church has had for the past 25 years.

One thing that I hope happens is that Catholics and those who teach them can begin to differnetiate between DOGMA and PRACTICE or CUSTOM.

Where Custum and Practice has held us apart, Unity really should be an issue of realizing that the debate is over thaat type of issue and allowing both their CUSTOMS.

The problems will come up when the issue is Essential Doctrine. Those will be more difficult to work out.

2 things I really do believe would help are to; (1) Use the term, “Seperated Brothren” as used by Vatican II instead of the perjorative “Protestants”, and (2) To stop using terms such as “Blasphemy” every time the Pope or some other Archbishop proposes some sort of limited or Partial Communion with these “Seperated Brethren”.

I believe these would improve the dialogue dramatically.

Blessings and Peace.

In Christ, Michael
 
Matt:

As “Irenicist” stated in a previous post, many of those details of how the TAC wiould be received would be done in the same fashion as the Eastern Catholics Churches were received.

If you remember your history, the Patriarch/Metropolitan/Primate and his Bishops were usually required to make some profession of faith. At which point, he and his Bishops became responsibe to instruct their priests and faithful in the Catholic Faith.

And, as has been made clear, people are required to ACCEPT the Doctrines and dogmas to the limits of their capacity to understand. The more important thing is that they OBEY.
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Matt16_18:
Dogmas that have been solemnly defined at Ecumenical Councils and by papal ex cathedra pronouncements are relatively few. These comprise the infallible teachings that have been received by the Church through the extraordinary exercise of the Magisterium. The vast majority of the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church have been received through the ordinary and universal Magisterium. This includes nearly all the infallible moral teachings of the Church, and this is the greatest barrier for accepting Anglicans into the Catholic Church. The Anglicans will have to renounce divorce and artificial contraception before they can ever be allowed to receive the Eucharist.

There are some matters concerning the reception of the Eucharist (e.g. the age at which one can receive) that are disciplinary. Other matters are of the faith, and not matters of discipline. The Pope has no authority to offer the Eucharist to adults that know what the Catholic Church infallibly teaches and who willfully reject that those teachings. That formal heretics cannot receive the Eucharist is a matter of faith, not discipline.
Matt, you’ve been directly contradicted by Vatican II and by the Vatican itself, since the Vatican has already allowed Communicants from the Polish National Catholic Church and the Old Catholic Church (among others) receive the Blessed Sacrament under certain circumstances. And, Vatican II specifically stated that the Eucharist was to be offered to our Eastern Oerthodox brethren whenever they had occasion to attend Catholic Churches.

All of these situations directly contradict what you’re saying. At the same time, you claim to believe that the Pope is infallible on matters of Faith, Doctrine and Morals. If the Pope really is infallible in these areas, and whether or not certain people should be offered the Eucharish in Catholic Churches really is a matter of Faith, Doctrine and Morals, and he’s already decided to so in these cases, then shouldn’t the Pope also have the right and AUTHORITY to decide this in the case of members of the TAC as well?

Matt, it’s simple logic. Either you believe it or you don’t.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
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