Anglicans vs The Pope

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dallas_r

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Hello all! I made this thread to share some things my Anglican friends have been pointing out to me, especially about the pope, and I have to say they have pretty good points.

I told one of them that I was told by many traditional and conservative priests that we did not have to listen to the Pope unless he was speaking ex cathedra. Here are some objections that they made, basically saying we have to listen to the pope regardless of whether or not he is speaking ex cathedra.
  1. Pope Pius X:
"How must the Pope be loved? “Not in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth” (1 Jn iii, 18). When one loves a person, one tries to adhere in everything to his thoughts, to fulfill his will, to perform his wishes. And if Our Lord Jesus Christ said of Himself, “if any one love me, he will keep my word” (Jn xiv, 23) therefore, in order to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him.
  1. Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey - that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope."
-Pope Pius X, Notre Charge Apostolique
  1. Religious submission of mind and will [obsequium religiosum] must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking
    -Lumen Gentium 25a, written by Paul VI, Vatican II
Soo. Guess this means Pope Francis’ borderline heretical statements need to be shown some love? If the Pope woke up and said gays can get married we would have to obey him? It pretty much says that in the writings above. But if we must “sincerely adhere” to his words, (Lumen Gentium) what’s the point of even talking in ex cathedra?? This is honestly killing me. Please don’t comment unless you read the entire post and understand what I’m saying. God bless.
 
Blessings!
Many opinions will be had. I have a friend used birth control. God isn’t allowed in my bedroom.
I was taught ExCathedra. We are educated ppl now. It’s not the Medievil Times. The church has kept some things quite or hidden. Our church has not been saintly for all these Centuries. I heard our bad Popes built the largest Cathedrals.
Benedict gave permission for condoms b/c of HIV/AIDS. Francis gave permission for Birth Control b/c of Zita virus.
We’ll have opinions and agree or disagree, w anything. Even ExCathedra. But, we have to follow ExCathedra.
My humble viewpoint!
In Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
 
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The Anglicans are having fun because their ship is slipping beneath the waves of relativism and relevance. Methinks you are spending far too much time on the Holy Father and too little on yourself. Do you pray for him daily? Read Acts 15. There was much debate, charges flying - but these were the elders who had the right to argue their points. We, as laity, have only to pray, seek to understand, and obey - in all things except sin. If the Holy Father is not the clearest speaker we have ever had, why do so many - so many - apparently good Catholics default to condemning him before giving the slightest tilt toward understanding?
Matthew 12:36-37 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
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You say that Pope Francis is borderline heretical but not your Anglican friends?

Wake up and smell the heresy.
 
I haven’t heard the Pope (any Pope) make anything close to a “borderline heretical statement” in my lifetime.

Anglicans quit the Church because the Pope wouldn’t condone the heresy that some fat King wanted to do.

The Pope is highly unlikely to wake up and say gays can get married; he’s already made clear he is not going to condone that and in addition, the Pope waking up and saying something is NOT how major doctrinal decisions get made in our Church.

I really couldn’t care less what the Anglicans think about anything. As po18guy said, their church is dying out. Which doesn’t make me too sad to be honest.
 
Anglicans versus the Pope? That attitude is not of today nor of what we live.
 
dallas_r said:
I told one of them that I was told by many traditional and conservative priests that we did not have to listen to the Pope unless he was speaking ex cathedra.
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you’ve been misled in that regard.
 
dallas_r said:
Soo. Guess this means Pope Francis’ borderline heretical statements need to be shown some love? If the Pope woke up and said gays can get married we would have to obey him? It pretty much says that in the writings above. But if we must “sincerely adhere” to his words, (Lumen Gentium) what’s the point of even talking in ex cathedra?? This is honestly killing me. Please don’t comment unless you read the entire post and understand what I’m saying.
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Sigh. What I understand is that every pope gets accused of this. John Paul II-- accused of being “heretical”. Benedict XVI-- accused of being heretical.

In the media age, everyone is a self-appointed expert and thinks they know better than the Pope and magisterium. Odd ball websites with inauthentic interpretations of Church teaching pick apart statements of popes and bishops and try to say they are heretical.

The problem here isn’t the pope.
 
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Thank you all for the replies. I didn’t mean to sound ignorant in this thread, I just am genuinely dim when it comes to the pope, my youth leaders are barely touching on him.
 
You do not only have to listen to the pope in matters of ex cathedra statements. That is when he is speaking infallibly.
Other times, when giving pastoral council, you still cannot just lightly brush them off as any other opinion.
 
tweedlealice said:
Many opinions will be had. I have a friend used birth control. God isn’t allowed in my bedroom.

I was taught ExCathedra. We are educated ppl now. It’s not the Medievil Times. The church has kept some things quite or hidden. Our church has not been saintly for all these Centuries. I heard our bad Popes built the largest Cathedrals.

Benedict gave permission for condoms b/c of HIV/AIDS. Francis gave permission for Birth Control b/c of Zita virus.

We’ll have opinions and agree or disagree, w anything. Even ExCathedra. But, we have to follow ExCathedra.

My humble viewpoint!

In Christ’s love
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This seems very troubled and misinformed.
 
The absolute obedience of faith is not implied in either of those passages (this is what is due to ex cathedra definitions). The obsequium religiousum" that is due to non-definitive teaching of the Pope requires the proper respect and deference to him in his role as chief teacher, but which admits of the withholding of assent when there is a good faith reason to withhold it (such as a good-faith belief in the presence of error).

Anyway, this criticism coming from Anglicans is funny–do they think their system has kept their communion from falling into error? They have happily embraced all the errors obeying Pope Francis’s every utterance supposedly will lead to completely on their own accord (it’s one reason we have the Anglican Ordinariate in the Catholic Church!) .
 
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Henric VIII also said that king and country first and God second. Not just the annulment. This is either ethnophyletism already condemned as heresy or sheer pride of power which may even be antichristic.
The Catholic Church already takes no pride in Pope Alexander/Borgia, the Pope at the time and never did anything to hide his curriculum.
But to say a man, any man, a king, is above God? Hm.
 
In this case, I said “supposedly” to take the argument of the OP as a given for the sake of argument. His Anglican friends were arguing that absolute obedience is to the Pope will lead to various errors. My point was even if that were true, the Anglicans got all these errors and more without having to obey anyone, so their objection is laughable.
 
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We are all proud rather than not but to form a parallel church in the name of your ideas being all wrong is heresy.
Those in the power on this world will be judged the hardest.
What this guy with the golden crown did affected many people’s lives. People died because of what he did. Holy objects desecrated. He wasn’t just this proud man who was just saying. He was corrupted in the full by power.
 
Here’s a copy of what my anglican friend responded when I basically said what you posted.

“They (catholics) concede that even if a law is not infallible, it must be followed. It doesn’t matter if a law is infallible or not: if the Church decrees it, it must be followed. But non-infallible laws may be heretical, and yet they still must be followed? That’s a problem, because then (by simple logic), the Church would lead a person into heresy and damnation. But the Church is established for salvation. Therefore if a Church leads a person into heresy, it cannot be the true Church.”

If Pope Francis made something heretical, we could disagree, but still have to go with it right?
 
Funny, I was in a parish where there was a former Lutheran minister who converted and was ordained a priest and he had a wife and kids. Celibacy is the state of voluntarily being unmarried, sexually abstinent, or both. I don’t think he was either. So it is the standard practice, but not mandatory.
 
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dallas_r said:
If Pope Francis made something heretical, we could disagree, but still have to go with it right?
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He hasn’t done this and isn’t going to do this, so this is like some Anglican telling me if the Pope commanded me to go commit a murder I’d have to do it.
Sorry, I have no patience with Anglicans and their hangups about the Pope.
 
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