Anglicans: Why don't you come home to Rome?

[GKC]

You hold that the Pope has a primacy of honour among the Bishops, but has no primacy of authority. However, according to Matthew 16:18-19:

This states that Peter has been given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, including the authority to use those keys: “Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven…” This passage does not mention any of the other Apostles; it doesn’t say that Peter holds the keys but that the other Apostles are to use them equally with Peter. God singled out Peter and gave him a special role amongst the Apostles, a role which also includes authority over them.

I agree with the need for collegial conciliarity, but I also believe that Peter and his Successors were given a primacy of honour, which also includes pastoral authority. Scripture (as shown above) proves that Peter was given the authority to bind and loose; something the other Apostles were not given. This honour belonged only to Peter and his Apostles.

Unfortunately I haven’t had this opportunity, but I would love to dialogue with them; I’m sure I would learn a great deal, as I have been lucky to learn a great deal by talking with you. However, I would rather talk with Anglicans because I know them, they have Churches in my area. I always wanted to know what the Anglo-Catholics believed, so I thank you for the opportunity to talk with you.

As a matter of interest, do you hold the same views as Orthodox concerning Papal authority? What are your thoughts on what I’ve written?

I think what you have writen is certainly what a RC should affirm.

On Papal authority, I’m told we do look rather Orthodox.

GKC

 

[Hesychios]

Much of Lewis, one of my serious collecting areas, is great. LETTERS is a particularly rich field. But one must remember that the “voice” in LETTERS is not Lewis speaking directly, but a fictional construct. That being said, there is no doubt that it reflects his personal views.

GKC

Coincident to this discussion, I just last night saw a nice volume of his letters at a used bookstore near here.

I overlooked it because I did not want to read his collected personal correspondence

I didn’t realize that it might actually be much more than that. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You hold that the Pope has a primacy of honour among the Bishops, but has no primacy of authority. However, according to Matthew 16:18-19:

This states that Peter has been given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, including the authority to use those keys: “Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven…” This passage does not mention any of the other Apostles; it doesn’t say that Peter holds the keys but that the other Apostles are to use them equally with Peter. God singled out Peter and gave him a special role amongst the Apostles, a role which also includes authority over them.

You don’t include St. Peter’s first use of his authority (Matthew 16:21-8).

I agree with the need for collegial conciliarity, but I also believe that Peter and his Successors were given a primacy of honour, which also includes pastoral authority. Scripture (as shown above) proves that Peter was given the authority to bind and loose; something the other Apostles were not given. This honour belonged only to Peter and his Apostles.

St. Matthew says otherwise. 18:18. St. John agrees. 20:21-3. Note He does talk to the other disciples.

The “Catholic Encyclopedia,” no pro-Orthodox publication, admits that the Power of the Keys in the Fathers deals almost exclusively with the power to forgive sins. Its use as a proof text for papal supremacy date later.

Unfortunately I haven’t had this opportunity, but I would love to dialogue with them; I’m sure I would learn a great deal, as I have been lucky to learn a great deal by talking with you. However, I would rather talk with Anglicans because I know them, they have Churches in my area. I always wanted to know what the Anglo-Catholics believed, so I thank you for the opportunity to talk with you.

As a matter of interest, do you hold the same views as Orthodox concerning Papal authority? What are your thoughts on what I’ve written?

The Anglican idea of authority is akin to the Orthodox in the idea of an autocephalous local Church, but different in that the Orthodox believe in the authority of the episcopacy, which the Calvinist and parliamentary strands in Anglicanism dilutes.

 

[Dempsey1919]

I think what you have writen is certainly what a RC should affirm.

You haven’t discussed whether you agree with my views or not. Do you agree with my theories or do you think I have misquoted Scripture?

If I haven’t misquoted Scripture, do you think my understanding of it is incorrect? If so, why?

 

[GKC]

You haven’t discussed whether you agree with my views or not. Do you agree with my theories or do you think I have misquoted Scripture?

If I haven’t misquoted Scripture, do you think my understanding of it is incorrect? If so, why?

No, I don’t agee with your views. I’m sorry that remained in doubt.

No, I don’t think that citation established Peter with universal ordinary authority. It established him as primus inter pares amongst the apostles.

I note from Isa Almisry’s post that yes, I do look Orthodox, in this regard. More than he credits me with, perhaps; I have almost no Calvinist strands, and look to the bishop. In general, I agree with his post.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Coincident to this discussion, I just last night saw a nice volume of his letters at a used bookstore near here.

I overlooked it because I did not want to read his collected personal correspondence

I didn’t realize that it might actually be much more than that. Thanks for the heads up.

You’re welcome. A few details.

The "LETTERS " I mentioned above was a short-hand reference to LETTERS TO MALCOM, CHIEFLY ON PRAYER, which are imaginary letters, as from an imaginary person, to an imaginary person, in which Lewis indulges in some epistolary apologetics and exposition.

Of his actual correspondence, there was a collection published shortly after his death, and Walter Hooper is currently bringing out a massive collection of correspondence, currently in 3 volumes. I have a few issues with Hooper, but this huge treasure trove, well indexed, is a great help in pin-pointing some of Lewis’ personal beliefs. You’d be surprised how often that sort of thing comes up on boards like this.

Buy all the Lewis you can.

GKC

 

[Isa_Almisry]

No, I don’t agee with your views. I’m sorry that remained in doubt.

No, I don’t think that citation established Peter with universal ordinary authority. It established him as primus inter pares amongst the apostles.

I note from Isa Almisry’s post that yes, I do look Orthodox, in this regard. More than he credits me with, perhaps; I have almost no Calvinist strands, and look to the bishop. In general, I agree with his post.

GKC

I was hedging in my post, because unfortunately I have found that when someone says that they are Episopalian/Anglican I have to probe further as to what that means. I have met several Anglicans who are Orthodox in everything but name and chrismation.

 

[GKC]

I was hedging in my post, because unfortunately I have found that when someone says that they are Episopalian/Anglican I have to probe further as to what that means. I have met several Anglicans who are Orthodox in everything but name and chrismation.

As I often say, you need a score card when dealing with Anglicans.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[nsper7]

As I often say, you need a score card when dealing with Anglicans.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus

One also should realize that such terms as 'Anglo-Catholic, ‘High Church’, ‘Broad Church’, ‘Low Church’, ‘Evangelical Anglican’, etc. are not “denominational” (I know that is a terrible term to use, but I cannot think of a better one for this context) terms, but are adjectives/descriptors, at least in the Anglican Communion proper (as opposed to in the TAC, CAC, etc.). An individual or a parish can tend toward High or Low Church, ‘Catholic’ or ‘Evangelical’, but in theory, an Anglican is an Anglican (by this I mean we are all in communion with +Cantuar and use the Book of Common Prayer [with provincial alterations allowed]). Compare it to Roman Catholic who talk about being more ‘traditional’ or ‘modern’: they are all Roman Catholic.

 

[GKC]

One also should realize that such terms as 'Anglo-Catholic, ‘High Church’, ‘Broad Church’, ‘Low Church’, ‘Evangelical Anglican’, etc. are not “denominational” (I know that is a terrible term to use, but I cannot think of a better one for this context) terms, but are adjectives/descriptors, at least in the Anglican Communion proper (as opposed to in the TAC, CAC, etc.). An individual or a parish can tend toward High or Low Church, ‘Catholic’ or ‘Evangelical’, but in theory, an Anglican is an Anglican (by this I mean we are all in communion with +Cantuar and use the Book of Common Prayer [with provincial alterations allowed]). Compare it to Roman Catholic who talk about being more ‘traditional’ or ‘modern’: they are all Roman Catholic.

For the most part, true. Pointing out all the more why one needs an annotated guide.

Not all Anglicans are in communion with Canterbury.

GKC

 

[masuwerte]

But is this Catechism recognised by the worldwide Anglican Communion? Must all Anglicans agree with it’s summary of beliefs?

The ECUSA, like the other Churches of the Anglican Communion, is autocephalus, so, no.

 

[dok]

Just jumping in here… if I were any flavor of Anglican (I’m Presbyterian), I’d be running to the Catholic Church so fast, it would make your head spin. The Anglicans are coming totally unglued, and the denomination isn’t all that far from the RCC, is it?

 

[Hesychios]

Just jumping in here… if I were any flavor of Anglican (I’m Presbyterian), I’d be running to the Catholic Church so fast, it would make your head spin. The Anglicans are coming totally unglued, and the denomination isn’t all that far from the RCC, is it?

I have stated this before, but I wouldn’t think that most of the Anglicans are close to Catholicism, although the externals are similar.

My commentary…

I think the vast majority of Anglicans worldwide would be quite at home in a Wesleyan environment.

Of course, there are those who really appreciate the elaborate ceremonial aspect of worship, but I really don’t think that usually reflects a theological affinity for the Latin Catholic church. Some seem to be very influenced by modernism, some by Calvin’s thought and some by Luther. They are all over the place.

I know the very Catholic-leaning Anglicans have a way of finding one another, but they have been a vanishing sort.

There are also a significant number of ex-Catholics among these (at least in North America) and most of these have serious objections or obstacles to returning to Papal obedience, including such things as second marriages (probably a lot of that), favoring abortion and birth control usage.

I know of at least one former Catholic nun who became Anglican (Episcopalian) to become a priest. My guess is that there are several or even more than a dozen. How many of these women, their families and supporters would abandon what they have to return to Rome? Probably none of them regardless of how bad it gets, they have crossed the Rubicon.

There is probably a hard core (thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands) of Episcopal/Anglican individuals who will never consider becoming Catholics under the Pope, ever.

The Episcopal church has forged close ties with the ELCA (Lutheran), with the ability to share ministers. I think it’s possible that we will see a merger between these two some place down the road and it will be a whole new thing.

 

[emeraldcoast]

The Episcopal church has forged close ties with the ELCA (Lutheran), with the ability to share ministers. I think it’s possible that we will see a merger between these two some place down the road and it will be a whole new thing.

I agree with much of your post, Hesychios. My family has experienced the sharing of ELCA ministers. When we were stationed in Japan, we basically would follow the ELCA service for 3 months and then use the Episcopal BCP for 3 months. Our minister was ELCA. There is a shortage of Liturgical Ministers in the Military so this has really helped ease the shortage.

episcopalchurch.org/6947_9255_ENG_HTM.htm

God Bless!

 

[emeraldcoast]

Just jumping in here… if I were any flavor of Anglican (I’m Presbyterian), I’d be running to the Catholic Church so fast, it would make your head spin. The Anglicans are coming totally unglued, and the denomination isn’t all that far from the RCC, is it?

I am just wondering why you would not recommend Anglicans to look more closely to your church instead you are pointing them to the Catholic Church, dok?

God Bless!

 

[East_Anglican]

Thank God for Lambeth.

They have agreed to make a statement stating what Anglicans believe. It shall state the Anglican position on homosexual issues. Then all will have to sign it or leave the communion.

Good bye ECUSA.

The statement should compliment the 39 articles beutifully.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Thank God for Lambeth.

They have agreed to make a statement stating what Anglicans believe. It shall state the Anglican position on homosexual issues. Then all will have to sign it or leave the communion.

Good bye ECUSA.

The statement should compliment the 39 articles beutifully.

Have the details of what the statement will say been made public yet?

 

[dok]

I am just wondering why you would not recommend Anglicans to look more closely to your church instead you are pointing them to the Catholic Church, dok?

God Bless!

Excellent question. Touche’!

I’m assuming that the path to reform theology (`a la Calvin) is very difficult for an Anglican to travel, while the path to Catholicism is short and level. Given that an Anglican is going to keep his or her basic beliefs (free will being the big one), then the Catholic church would seem to be a more logical home.

Getting someone to understand and accept principles like predestination through this kind of discussion isn’t a real practical undertaking. But take two volumes of Calvin and call me in the morning!

 

[chris_molter]

I’m assuming that the path to reform theology (`a la Calvin) is very difficult for an Anglican to travel, while the path to Catholicism is short and level.

It depends on which Anglican you’re talking to! It’s a crapshoot, really.

 

[East_Anglican]

Have the details of what the statement will say been made public yet?

Not yet.