Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church recognized by Vatican?

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IAGladfelter said:
The traditions: the music of Bach and Vaugh-n-Williams being just two examples, styles of architecture, etc. “sights and sounds” and other superficial , cultural things only which have nothing to do with doctrine are the only things the ALCC thinks are worth retaining. We would like to be Catholic and be the same as everyone else.

Blessings,
  • Irl
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Maybe you already are.
 
I now regret that I took what should have been a private matter with my father into a public forum. He is a deeply committed Christian seeking to follow God’s call, and I unfairly vilified him in a selfish attempt to resolve my own feelings, which, as I was reminded yesterday, violates the Eighth Commandment.

Moderators, please lock and/or delete this thread. I apologize sincerely for any harm I have caused.
 
Fuerza said:
If that is in fact true, then that begs the question: Why are they only working towards full communion with the Catholic Church? If they believe in primacy and infallibility, then there is really nothing to work on. They should either formally submit a petition to Rome or simply convert.
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The former - the process of working toward" is formative and leads to the latter: a petition to enter the Catholic Church.

On the Feast of Our Lady of Fatima (13 May 2009.) the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church officially filed its formal petition with Cardinal Kasper’s Dicastery to be allowed to begin a process of entering the Roman Catholic Church in some form of unitary body.

Please pray for the reunion of the Church. Ut Unum Sint!
 
Just wondering the status of the petition as I contemplate if Christ is calling me to the Priesthood in the ALCC.

Blessings
 
tcselim said:
Just wondering the status of the petition as I contemplate if Christ is calling me to the Priesthood in the ALCC.

Blessings
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IAGladfelter, who has posted above, is a member of the ALCC. YOu could probably PM or email him to find out. Or better, ask him to post this thread with an update.
Jon
 
tcselim said:
Just wondering the status of the petition as I contemplate if Christ is calling me to the Priesthood in the ALCC.

Blessings
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The ALCC’s petition is now before the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. We are prayerfully optimistic. Please continue to pray for the reunion of the Church. Ut Unum Sint!!

Blessings,
  • Irl
 
IAGladfelter said:
The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church does not claim to be Protestant in any way, shape or form. The Reformation was a catastrophe of epic proportions. It is time to recognize that and come home to Rome.

Blessings,
  • Irl Gladfelter
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Amem.
 
IAGladfelter said:
The ALCC’s petition is now before the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. We are prayerfully optimistic. Please continue to pray for the reunion of the Church. Ut Unum Sint!!

Blessings,
  • Irl
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Praying for this runion!!!
 
The reunion can only happen individually as the orders of this group is not recognized as holy or legitimate, especially due to the Milingo connection, from Wiki:
Excommunication
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On September 24, 2006, Milingo consecrated four married men as bishops.[18] Each of the four claimed already to be a bishop. Stallings was one of the four. The others were Archbishop Peter Paul Brennan of the African Orthodox Church and the Ecumenical Catholic Diocese of the Americas, who according to one website was first consecrated a bishop on June 10, 1978 and subsequently reconsecrated in October 1979 and twice more in March 1987; Archbishop Patrick E. Trujillo of the Old Catholic Church in America and Archbishop Joseph J. Gouthro of Las Vegas, presiding bishop of the Catholic Apostolic Church International.[19]
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Two days later, on September 26, 2006, the Holy See’s press office announced[20] that both Archbishop Milingo and the four men involved in the episcopal consecration ceremony had automatically incurred excommunication in accordance with canon 1382 of the current Code of Canon Law.[21] Since, as canon 1405[22] states, only the Pope himself has jurisdiction in an ecclesiastical penal case against a bishop, this declaration did not signify that Archbishop Milingo was subject to the consequences (indicated in canon 1331 §2) of a judicially imposed or declared excommunication. The declaration of the Holy See (“By this public act, both Archbishop Milingo and the four ordinands have incurred the latae sententiae excommunication that is indicated in Canon 1382 of the Code of Canon Law”) instead indicated that, since Milingo’s action was a public act, anyone could see that he had incurred automatic excommunication, with the equally automatic consequences indicated in canon 1331 §1. It also stated that “the Church does not recognize and does not intend in the future to recognize these ordinations or any ordinations derived from them, and she holds that the canonical state of the four alleged bishops is the same as it was prior to the ordination”.
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In October 2007, Milingo’s Vatican passport was revoked, ending his status as a person with diplomatic protection from the Vatican City State.[23]
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It pains this boy to admit it but I’ve never even heard of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church? That’s a new one on me? :confused:
 
SyroMalankara said:
The reunion can only happen individually as the orders of this group is not recognized as holy or legitimate, especially due to the Milingo connection, from Wiki:
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Actually, SyroMalankara, the Ango-Lutheran Catholic Church (ALCC) picked up its Orders from + Peter Paul Brennan, Francis C. Spataro, and + Padget Mack in January of 2004, two years before + Brennan was reordained a bishop conditionally (“sub conditione”) by + Milingo.
So the later + Brennan’s Miningo connection is simply not relevant because it occurred years later.

I remind you that the Roman Catholic Church still officially adheres to the Augustinian criteria for the transmission of valid apostolic succession, not to the more subjective Cyprianic criteria (promulgated by St. Cyprian,) which denies that schismatics and heretics and those formally excommunicated can not pass on valid apostolic succession and that the Orders and Sacraments of schismatics and heretics - and those excommunicated - are therefore null and void.

For what it is worth, the Catholic Church recognizes the technical validity of the Orders and Sacraments of the Old Catholic Churches of the Utrech Union, the PNCC, the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil, and others as “illicit but valid” or “irregular but valid,” and describes those Churches as “daughter Churches” even though the bishops from whom those lineages derive were all formally excommunicated, and the ministry of deacons, priests, and bishops in their lineages may not be exercised in the Roman Catholic Church “under its flag.”

Until Rome formally amends the 1983 Canon Law Code in this area and formally adopts the Cyprianic criteria, whether one likes it or not officially/technically, the Orders and Sacraments of those ordained by schismatics, heretics, and those excommunicated are illegal/illicit, or at best irregular, but are still are technically quite valid.

The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches - and since the 1920 Lambeth Conference - the Anglican Communion and soon after that, the Utrech Old Catholics - follow the Cyprianic criteria and see things quite differently. That is one of the differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches. The Eastern Churches sometimes accuse the Augustinian criteria of being “mechanistic” or “magic,” but the Catholic Church disagrees.

For an interesting in-depth discussion of this issue I refer you to the discussion page of the Wikipedia article, “Independent Catholic Churches” : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Independent_Catholic_Churches, ) Incidentally, although the theology, polity, spirituality and worship of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church is solidly Roman Catholic, it considers itself to be technically Lutheran due to its origins as an off-shoot of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and subscribes to the Lutheran Confessions insofar as they agree – on a line by line basis, with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s apostolic lineages (which includes that of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil and the Dutch Old Catholic Church) are discussed on that page under the heading, “A quick test on legitimate Apostolic Succession.”

As far that statemement that this reunion with the Catholic Church is concerned, the ALCC expects its clergy to be reordained by Rome, and even were that felt to be unnecessary, it would request it anyway.

Concerning the comment that “the reunion can only happen individually,” there you are right regardless of the technical validity of the Orders of a person or of his Church, that was and is certainly true under the Anglican Use Pastoral Provision, and those of the laity entering its parishes; and the terms of the “Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus” and the Complementary norms do state that the clergy - and the laity as well - will still need to apply for entry into an Ordinariate individually, and comply with all normal procedures for entry into the Catholic Church, and the clergy will need to be re-educated even though they will otherwise be kept together. The actual conversions, therefore are still technically be individual. This, however, is irrelevant, as reunion with the Catholic Church must be for the right reason. Quoting Fr. Chori Jonathin Seraiah, a priest of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) patiently awaiting the establishment of the U.S. Anglican Ordinariate to enter the Catholic Church wrote: Seeking communion with Rome is “not supposed to be because it is a nice thing to do, but only because it is the only thing to do - because it is right.”

Blessings,
Irl
 
I fervently pray for the acceptance by Rome of the ALCC petition. I also pray that everyone comes home to the Catholic Church, the Church that Our Lord and Saviour instituted. UT UNUM SINT. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
I am writing to correct a typographical error in one paragraph of my post #32 on this thread.

The sentence, *“I remind you that the Roman Catholic Church still officially adheres to the Augustinian criteria for the transmission of valid apostolic succession, not to the more subjective Cyprianic criteria (promulgated by St. Cyprian,) which denies that schismatics and heretics and those formally excommunicated can not pass on valid apostolic succession and that the Orders and Sacraments of schismatics and heretics - and those excommunicated - are therefore null and void” should have read as follows: I remind you that the Roman Catholic Church still officially adheres to the Augustinian criteria for the transmission of valid apostolic succession, not to the more subjective Cyprianic criteria (promulgated by St. Cyprian,) which denies that schismatics and heretics and those formally excommunicated can pass on valid apostolic succession and that the Orders and Sacraments of schismatics and heretics - and those excommunicated - are therefore null and void.

Sorry about the double negative which changed the meaning of the original sentence. Proofreading is not exactly my long suit.

Blessings,
Irl*
 
Javl said:
I fervently pray for the acceptance by Rome of the ALCC petition. I also pray that everyone comes home to the Catholic Church, the Church that Our Lord and Saviour instituted. UT UNUM SINT. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
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Thank you, Javl.

Blessings and Peace,
Irl
 
I hope I do not come across as rude, as I hope this reunion occurs and am glad that it looks like it should! 👍

However, I am not well versed in the process of what must occur for a Church to be reunified, and am wondering what all else must be done before it is officially approved?

Also, is there any issue that might not allow this to go through? Or is it simply a matter of time?:confused:

Thanks
 
Redratfish said:
I hope I do not come across as rude, as I hope this reunion occurs and am glad that it looks like it should! 👍

However, I am not well versed in the process of what must occur for a Church to be reunified, and am wondering what all else must be done before it is officially approved?

Also, is there any issue that might not allow this to go through? Or is it simply a matter of time?:confused:

Thanks
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Reading there website, i can not see any doctrinal matter that needs reconciling, they accept Mary, Papal Supremacy and Infallibility, the Saints, all the Recent Popes (so they are not Sedevacantists), all of the major ones you hear about differences in are all the same. However I will leave it up to Rome as to whether their Holy Orders are valid, as only the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Holy Father can truly answer it to a 100% certainty, if the rite of Ordination for the ALCC has not changed from before the reformation, then the Holy Orders are indeed valid.

Let us pray for unity.
 
Skeptic92 said:
Reading there website, i can not see any doctrinal matter that needs reconciling, they accept Mary, Papal Supremacy and Infallibility, the Saints, all the Recent Popes (so they are not Sedevacantists), all of the major ones you hear about differences in are all the same. However I will leave it up to Rome as to whether their Holy Orders are valid, as only the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Holy Father can truly answer it to a 100% certainty, if the rite of Ordination for the ALCC has not changed from before the reformation, then the Holy Orders are indeed valid.

Let us pray for unity.
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The ALCC is working with the CFD on our reunion. A process has been determined by them and officially accepted in writing by the ALCC, though it will take time. The Catholic Church will make any official announcements themselves, when they feel the time is right.

Our Ordination Rite is (and has always been) the current Roman Catholic ordination rite from the current Roman Pontifical with no omissions except the celibacy vow in the diaconal ordination rite, which all our clergy are prepared to take and sign whenever asked, and we shall be - to go into effect upon our formal entry into the Catholic Church - upon the death of the wife or a divorce and Roman Catholic ecclesiastical decree of nullity. The ALCC has never used a Lutheran ordination rite, and it requires all clerics entering the ALCC from Lutheran Churches to be re-ordained (and re-confirmed) using the rites of the Catholic Church by our bishops, even if they have Swedish Orders, which we consider to be invalid due to defects of form and intention.

The ALCC does include the vow of obedience to the Pope in the Catholic ordination rites even though we are not legally under Papal authority at this time. (We do, however, act, believe, teach, and confess as though we already are.)

The ALCC’s Holy Orders have been described by Catholic officials as “valid but irregular.” Our clergy will be re-ordained, and were they to decide that to be unnecessary we would have asked to be re-ordained by the Catholic Church anyway, so as not to confuse or upset any of the Catholic laity.

Let us all indeed pray for unity.

Thank you for your prayers.
  • Irl
Please excuse any typos. Proofreading is not my long suit.
 
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