Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church recognized by Vatican?

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Redratfish said:
I hope I do not come across as rude, as I hope this reunion occurs and am glad that it looks like it should! đź‘Ť

However, I am not well versed in the process of what must occur for a Church to be reunified, and am wondering what all else must be done before it is officially approved?

Also, is there any issue that might not allow this to go through? Or is it simply a matter of time?:confused:

Thanks
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We are not aware of any issues. It will take time, though, but the end result is more than worth it.

Blessings,
Irl
 
That’s an interesting site, but with only five parishes it’s hard to imagine this blip being very visible.

Best wishes. I hope your goals are achieved!!
 
mark_a said:
That’s an interesting site, but with only five parishes it’s hard to imagine this blip being very visible.

Best wishes. I hope your goals are achieved!!
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If you were looking at ecclnet.org, those are only the parishes in one Archdiocese. The ALCC has several dioceses and archdioceses.

For a full list of current parishes (not counting our parishes in Khartoum, Sudan, and our many mission churches in Southern Sudan and Uganda) go to this page on the ALCC’s national website: anglolutherancatholic.org/churches .

Blessings,
Irl
 
IAGladfelter said:
The ALCC is working with the CFD on our reunion. A process has been determined by them and officially accepted in writing by the ALCC, though it will take time. The Catholic Church will make any official announcements themselves, when they feel the time is right.

Our Ordination Rite is (and has always been) the current Roman Catholic ordination rite from the current Roman Pontifical with no omissions except the celibacy vow in the diaconal ordination rite, which all our clergy are prepared to take and sign whenever asked, and we shall be - to go into effect upon our formal entry into the Catholic Church - upon the death of the wife or a divorce and Roman Catholic ecclesiastical decree of nullity. The ALCC has never used a Lutheran ordination rite, and it requires all clerics entering the ALCC from Lutheran Churches to be re-ordained (and re-confirmed) using the rites of the Catholic Church by our bishops, even if they have Swedish Orders, which we consider to be invalid due to defects of form and intention.

The ALCC does include the vow of obedience to the Pope in the Catholic ordination rites even though we are not legally under Papal authority at this time. (We do, however, act, believe, teach, and confess as though we already are.)

The ALCC’s Holy Orders have been described by Catholic officials as “valid but irregular.” Our clergy will be re-ordained, and were they to decide that to be unnecessary we would have asked to be re-ordained by the Catholic Church anyway, so as not to confuse or upset any of the Catholic laity.

Let us all indeed pray for unity.

Thank you for your prayers.
  • Irl
Please excuse any typos. Proofreading is not my long suit.
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If everything you state is true (I say if, as I can’t say with 100% certainty the historical accuracy, as this is the first time I’ve heard of the ALCC), then it sounds as if all doctrinal, and canonical matters hold no ground, so it all waits for Rome to formally accept the request for unification (will most likely be taken before the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, within the next year or so) and a formal ceremony to be conducted by each of the local Bishops, or by the Holy Father, I am not sure on the exact circumstances.
 
All I can say is that a snail is a speed demon compared to the Catholic Church when it comes to these matters. Again, I fervently pray to the Holy Spirit for His help in pushing the ALCC through the Rome bureaucracy. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
IAGladfelter said:
If you were looking at ecclnet.org, those are only the parishes in one Archdiocese. The ALCC has several dioceses and archdioceses.

For a full list of current parishes (not counting our parishes in Khartoum, Sudan, and our many mission churches in Southern Sudan and Uganda) go to this page on the ALCC’s national website: anglolutherancatholic.org/churches .

Blessings,
Irl
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Irl,
Is the Anglican Church in America (TAC) a partner Church with the ALCC?

Jon
 
IAGladfelter said:
In the next few weeks, the ALCC will be filing a formal petition for entry into the Catholic Church in watever form is most practical: as a prelature similar to Opus Dei or a priestly society similar to the SSPX and Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.
  • Irl A. Gladfelter,C.S.P., D.D.
    Metropolitan Archbishop, ALCC
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Sorry I think I might be confused. So what makes you Lutheran and why not enter the Roman Catholic Church as any one else? Why do you have this separate identity of claiming to be Lutheran?
 
BernadetteM said:
No as far as I have heard, there is no connection.

God Bless

Bernadette
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There is no connection between TAC (the Traditional Anglican Communion) and the ALCC. TAC is a “continuing Anglican” communion of Churches whose venue in the U.S. is the Anglican Church in America (ACA.) The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church (ALCC) originally separated from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS.)

The ALCC is, however, in full communion with the Traditional Church of England (in England,) and the Anglican Church-Traditional Rite (in England, Scotland, and Wales,) and the Anglican Church of the Americas (U.S. and Latin America.) All of these are “Newmanite” Ango-Catholic Churches. The ones in the UK are interested in entering the new Roman Catholic Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, and the one in the US is interested in the future Anglican Ordinariate in the U.S.

Blessings,
Irl
 
Mikeoffaith said:
Sorry I think I might be confused. So what makes you Lutheran and why not enter the Roman Catholic Church as any one else? Why do you have this separate identity of claiming to be Lutheran?
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Well, Mikeoffaith, let me put it this way: If we in the ALCC enter the Catholic Church as individuals, that is good for us as individuals, but it will not “blaze a path” for other Lutheran Churches (denominations) to follow. It also be good for the existing Lutheran Churches because it will reduce the number of (to use a Lutheran term) Romanizing Lutherans those existing Lutheran Churches, so their influence in favor of Catholicism will be gone, and the end result will be the continuation of the status quo.

To the ALCC, the status quo is unacceptable. The ALCC’s plan is to blaze a path to Rome for Lutherans similar to that blazed for Anglicans by Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman, which is only now coming to full fruition. At the time, Newman and his followers were few in number - much, much smaller than the ALCC. But just look at the result today.

The late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus (a convert from Lutheranism) once wrote something to the effect that there would be little movement toward Rome by Lutherans until some day, some Lutheran Church (he did not say low large or how small,) “would make a breakthrough,” and “nothing would ever be the same again.”

The ALCC’s goal is to be the Lutheran Church which makes that breakthrough, blazing a path home to Rome and setting the example which other Lutherans and Lutheran Church will be able to follow, now and even more so in the future. Ut Unum Sint! Deo Le Veult!

Blessings,
Irl
 
If your father is accepting ordination in a church that5 he neither accepts the teachings of, nor supports in any fashion, then he is nothing but a hypocrite!

To do such a thing is immoral. He is using this “church” for his own selfish ends, and not out of religious conviction.

I doubt if any Episcopal church, Anglican Church or related church would either recognize or accept an ordination under such circumstances.
 
The_Old_Medic said:
If your father is accepting ordination in a church that5 he neither accepts the teachings of, nor supports in any fashion, then he is nothing but a hypocrite!

To do such a thing is immoral. He is using this “church” for his own selfish ends, and not out of religious conviction.

I doubt if any Episcopal church, Anglican Church or related church would either recognize or accept an ordination under such circumstances.
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Sorry, but did you check the date on the first post, this has been necro-bumped
 
IAGladfelter said:
Well, Mikeoffaith, let me put it this way: If we in the ALCC enter the Catholic Church as individuals, that is good for us as individuals, but it will not “blaze a path” for other Lutheran Churches (denominations) to follow. It also be good for the existing Lutheran Churches because it will reduce the number of (to use a Lutheran term) Romanizing Lutherans those existing Lutheran Churches, so their influence in favor of Catholicism will be gone, and the end result will be the continuation of the status quo.

To the ALCC, the status quo is unacceptable. The ALCC’s plan is to blaze a path to Rome for Lutherans similar to that blazed for Anglicans by Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman, which is only now coming to full fruition. At the time, Newman and his followers were few in number - much, much smaller than the ALCC. But just look at the result today.

The late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus (a convert from Lutheranism) once wrote something to the effect that there would be little movement toward Rome by Lutherans until some day, some Lutheran Church (he did not say low large or how small,) “would make a breakthrough,” and “nothing would ever be the same again.”

The ALCC’s goal is to be the Lutheran Church which makes that breakthrough, blazing a path home to Rome and setting the example which other Lutherans and Lutheran Church will be able to follow, now and even more so in the future. Ut Unum Sint! Deo Le Veult!

Blessings,
Irl
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That’s fine and lovely. From what I have read of your beliefs and confessions, there isn’t much in your church other than the name that makes you Lutheran. So how do you define yourselves as being Lutherans?

So from my perspective you being Lutheran in name only and not in practice, how would that make it easier for some church say WELS or LCMS to enter the Catholic Church when I am certain they joyously affirm the Lutheran Confessions?
 
IAGladfelter said:
Incidentally, the ALCC is asking nothing of Rome. It has already freely, of its own accord, accepted the entire faith, order, worship, spirituality, etc. of the Catholic Church. All the ALCC wants is to be able to come home and create a structure in which some of the culture of the Lutheran and Anglican traditions which do not confllict in any way with the Magisterium might be preserved to facilitate the return of large numbers of Lutherans and Anglicans to the Catholic Church. Think of the ALCC as “counter-reformational.” One of the mottos on the ALCC’s new website is this: “Reuniting the Body of Christ one Church at a time.”

Blessings,
  • Irl Gladfelter
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Very interesting Gladfelter. How has the Vatican responded to this request? Do you believe that this is something that is going to happen?

God bless
 
This is interesting. Does the ALCC have their own Liturgy? Or is it similar enough with the Anglican Liturgy that they can just adopt the Anglican Use Mass?
 
JonNC said:
Irl,
Is the Anglican Church in America (TAC) a partner Church with the ALCC?

Jon
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No, John. Only the Anglican Churches I listed upthread, all of which are not only Anglo-Catholic, but “Newmanite” Anglo-Catholics interested in the new Personal Ordinariates. Like the ALCC, they all see their future as entry into the Roman Catholic Church as soon as possible, so in that sense, they, and we, are now transitional Churches.

The overwhelming majority of Anglican Church in America parishes have voted not to enter the Catholic Church, and remain Anglican Protestants.

Blessings,
Irl
 
ConstantineTG said:
This is interesting. Does the ALCC have their own Liturgy? Or is it similar enough with the Anglican Liturgy that they can just adopt the Anglican Use Mass?
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The ALCC neither has nor wants its own liturgy. Its official liturgy is the Anglican Use Book of Divine Worship, though only a couple of parishes use it. All the rest use the current Novus Ordo Mass, and will be using the new Roman Missal 3rd edition starting on Advent 1, 2011.

The Canon LAw Code of the ALCC forbids the use of any rites and ceremonies except those of the Roman Catholic Church. This is strictly enforced. Parishes which do not comply with this will lose its charter and find itself outside of the ALCC; and clergy who do not comply will be removed and placed in lay communion. The former has not happened, but the latter has.

Blessings,
Irl
 
I am just curious if unlike the Anglicans who want to bring their Patrimony and traditions with them, why not just join as individuals into a parish?

Anglicans are asked this all the time, however the Church has seen the beauty and reverence their liturgy have and want Anglicans to be allowed to continue with these practices.

Are there not Lutheran traditions that are held highly, bringing one closer to our Lord that your church would like to bring into the Catholic Church?

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
BernadetteM said:
I am just curious if unlike the Anglicans who want to bring their Patrimony and traditions with them, why not just join as individuals into a parish?

Anglicans are asked this all the time, however the Church has seen the beauty and reverence their liturgy have and want Anglicans to be allowed to continue with these practices.

Are there not Lutheran traditions that are held highly, bringing one closer to our Lord that your church would like to bring into the Catholic Church?

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
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I answered your first question in some detail upthread in my post # 50 yesterday.

As far as your second question: Unlike the Anglicans, because it is largely theological and “confessional,” there is not much of a Lutheran Patrimony per se which does not conflict with the Catholic Magisterium.

Unlike the Anglicans which have the Book of Common Prayer based on the medieval Sarum Rite, there is no “Lutheran Rite.” The Lutheran Rite is simply that of the Catholic Church with the Canon of the Mass removed and replaced by the words of institution only. (In the U.S. it is a modified from the Book of Common Prayer.)

Most other elements in the Lutheran patrimony are, unlike those of the Anglicans, are mostly theological, like the "three Solas, " only one order of clergy, salvation by grace alone through faith alone, etc., as compiled in the Book of Concord (BOC,) of which the ALCC only accepts those portions, line by line, which agree fully with the Catholic Magisterium as compiled in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church (and it rejects the last and most Protestant document in the BOC, the Formula of Concord, entirely.) In the U.S., a strict congregational polity rather than a strictly centralized episcopal one in which the diocese, not the parish, is the basic unit has become part of the Lutheran Patrimony, though European Lutherans would dispute that. I could go on, but you get the point. The ALCC could not hold on to any of those and even consider entry into the Catholic Church.

There are, however, certain Germanic cultural elements which the ALCC is preserving: the use of German Chorales - if and when the lyrics do not conflict with teachings of the Catholic Magisterium; the music of Bach, Buxtehude et al; using red advent candles rather than the purple and pink ones, having parish Weinnachtmarkets (Christmas Markets;) the use of Germanic fonts on our bulletins and parish signs, (all of which are shared, by the way, with German Roman Catholics,) and the use of the Luther Rose.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,
Irl
 
Roman_Catholic said:
Very interesting Gladfelter. How has the Vatican responded to this request? Do you believe that this is something that is going to happen?

God bless
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The ALCC has, in fact, recently received an affirmative response from the (Vatican) Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the terms and conditions of which have been formally accepted by the ALCC in writing. the process will take some time, and any further information will be released by the Catholic Church in a time and venus of its choice.

UT Unum Sint!

Irl
 
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