Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church recognized by Vatican?

[IAGladfelter]

That’s fine and lovely. From what I have read of your beliefs and confessions, there isn’t much in your church other than the name that makes you Lutheran. So how do you define yourselves as being Lutherans?

So from my perspective you being Lutheran in name only and not in practice, how would that make it easier for some church say WELS or LCMS to enter the Catholic Church when I am certain they joyously affirm the Lutheran Confessions?

It won’t for those two Churches, but there are others, and from Bl John Henry Newman’s conversion to the present state with the new Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum coetibus was over 100 years. Think of it as throwing a snowball down a moutainside, which grows into an avalanche, or of pulling a pebble from the face of a dam, which eventually leads to the collapse of the dam.

Even the WELS and LCMS do have their Evangelical Catholic (high church/Romanizing Lutheran) elements within them, and there are more Lutheran Churches in the world than the WELS and LCMS.

My advice to the WELS and LCMS is this: unless and until you are interested in becoming fully Roman Catholics like all the other Catholics, unless and until you believe that Christ’s prayer in Gethsemane that all his followers would be one - in one visible, corporate Church - not one in a nebulous form - “in faith,” was answered by God with a “YES,” and that unity was denied - broken by man’s will - rising from the sin of Pride, not by God’s will; Stay where you are. Do not try to enter the Catholic Church.

The only reasons for becoming Roman Catholic are because you are convinced of the absolute Truth of the Roman Catholic Faith; that you are convinced of the Truth that the Catholic Church is not and never has been, and never shall be “off the rails;” that entering the Catholic Church is not only the right thing to do; it is the only thing to do; and you are committed to working to make the reunion of the Church in one visible corporate body under the leadership of the Successor to St. Peter a lived reality once again.

The ALCC did not even consider petitioning to enter the Catholic Church until it had reached that point. We will pray that you and other Lutherans will also come to that point some day.

Blessings,
Irl

 

[IAGladfelter]

That’s fine and lovely. From what I have read of your beliefs and confessions, there isn’t much in your church other than the name that makes you Lutheran. So how do you define yourselves as being Lutherans?

Fair question, Mikeoffaith. Each Lutheran Church has the right to decide who is Lutheran and whom is not; and each Church gets to define its own self-identity.

The ALCC considers itself Lutheran because it separated quietly from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS.) With the exception of the “Formula of Concord” the ALCC does accept the rest of the Book of Concord (1580) on a quatena basis instead of a quia basis like the LCMS and WELS. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Lutheran World Federation (LWF) considers acceptance of the Lutheran Confessions on a quatena basis adequate to consider a Church to be Lutheran. The WELS and LCMS disagree with the ELCA and LWF on this, some in both Churches do not consider the ELCA and LWF authentically Lutheran, and they get to do that. But that is only their own considered opinion.

While the ALCC does not accept the “Formula of Concord” at all (while respecting it as a historic Lutheran document) neither does the Church of Sweden despite many attempts to get it to accept that document. The Church of Sweden also accepts the Book of Concord (absent the Formula of Concord) on a *quatena *basis, it is in full Communion with the Anglican Communion, has bishops, priests and deacons, and an episcopal polity, is by far the most Catholic of the European Lutheran, and is a member of the Lutheran World Federation.

Incidentally, the ALCC is not the only Lutheran Church which is not a member of the Lutheran World Federation. The WELS and LCMS are not, and like the ALCC, both of them have their own Communion of Churches.

Blessings,
Irl

 

[Mikeoffaith]

It won’t for those two Churches, but there are others, and from Bl John Henry Newman’s conversion to the present state with the new Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum coetibus was over 100 years. Think of it as throwing a snowball down a moutainside, which grows into an avalanche, or of pulling a pebble from the face of a dam, which eventually leads to the collapse of the dam.

Even the WELS and LCMS do have their Evangelical Catholic (high church/Romanizing Lutheran) elements within them, and there are more Lutheran Churches in the world than the WELS and LCMS.

My advice to the WELS and LCMS is this: unless and until you are interested in becoming fully Roman Catholics like all the other Catholics, unless and until you believe that Christ’s prayer in Gethsemane that all his followers would be one - in one visible, corporate Church - not one in a nebulous form - “in faith,” was answered by God with a “YES,” and that unity was denied - broken by man’s will - rising from the sin of Pride, not by God’s will; Stay where you are. Do not try to enter the Catholic Church.

The only reasons for becoming Roman Catholic are because you are convinced of the absolute Truth of the Roman Catholic Faith; that you are convinced of the Truth that the Catholic Church is not and never has been, and never shall be “off the rails;” that entering the Catholic Church is not only the right thing to do; it is the only thing to do; and you are committed to working to make the reunion of the Church in one visible corporate body under the leadership of the Successor to St. Peter a lived reality once again.

The ALCC did not even consider petitioning to enter the Catholic Church until it had reached that point. We will pray that you and other Lutherans will also come to that point some day.

Blessings,
Irl

So again, what makes you a Lutheran Community?

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Fair question, Mikeoffaith. Each Lutheran Church has the right to decide who is Lutheran and whom is not; and each Church gets to define its own self-identity.

The ALCC considers itself Lutheran because it separated quietly from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS.) With the exception of the “Formula of Concord” the ALCC does accept the rest of the Book of Concord (1580) on a quatena basis instead of a quia basis like the LCMS and WELS. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Lutheran World Federation (LWF) considers acceptance of the Lutheran Confessions on a quatena basis adequate to consider a Church to be Lutheran. The WELS and LCMS disagree with the ELCA and LWF on this, some in both Churches do not consider the ELCA and LWF authentically Lutheran, and they get to do that. But that is only their own considered opinion.

While the ALCC does not accept the “Formula of Concord” at all (while respecting it as a historic Lutheran document) neither does the Church of Sweden despite many attempts to get it to accept that document. The Church of Sweden also accepts the Book of Concord (absent the Formula of Concord) on a *quatena *basis, it is in full Communion with the Anglican Communion, has bishops, priests and deacons, and an episcopal polity, is by far the most Catholic of the European Lutheran, and is a member of the Lutheran World Federation.

Incidentally, the ALCC is not the only Lutheran Church which is not a member of the Lutheran World Federation. The WELS and LCMS are not, and like the ALCC, both of them have their own Communion of Churches.

Blessings,
Irl

OK still confused. Because from my understanding of your readings you accept, lets say, The Augsburg Confession on quatena basis as it is aligns with the CCC and current Roman Catholic teaching, as opposed to the ELCA which accepts The Augsburg Confession on quatena basis as it is to Scripture.

As much as I see the Augsburg Confession more in line with Rome today than in 1517 there are still places where the two don’t mesh. From what I am understanding you are rejecting those places if they disagree or are contrary to Rome today. Is this correct?

And that the only things you wish to keep on your journey to Rome is “Lutheran Culture”? Which I not quite sure how well that is defined except you are looking for permission from Rome to bring a Jell-o mold to a church potluck?

 

[IAGladfelter]

OK still confused. Because from my understanding of your readings you accept, lets say, The Augsburg Confession on quatena basis as it is aligns with the CCC and current Roman Catholic teaching, as opposed to the ELCA which accepts The Augsburg Confession on quatena basis as it is to Scripture.

As much as I see the Augsburg Confession more in line with Rome today than in 1517 there are still places where the two don’t mesh. From what I am understanding you are rejecting those places if they disagree or are contrary to Rome today. Is this correct?

And that the only things you wish to keep on your journey to Rome is “Lutheran Culture”? Which I not quite sure how well that is defined except you are looking for permission from Rome to bring a Jell-o mold to a church potluck?

You are correct, Mikeoffaith, the ALCC does reject those places in the Unaltered Augsburg Confession which disagree and/or are contrary to Catholic doctrine today. Let me clarify things for you, Mikeoffaith: The quatena the ALCC uses to view the Lutheran Confessions (except the Formula of Concord which we completely reject) is “insofar as they are in full agreement with the dogma, doctrines, spirituality, worship and polity of the Roman Catholic Magisterium as summarized in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church.”

What the ALCC actually does, is actually apply a “line item veto” to every line of the Lutheran Confessions (with the Formula of Concord omitted entirely.) Those lines which agree with the Catholic Magisterium / the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the ALCC accepts. Those lines - every one - which disagree with the Catholic Magisterium / the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the ALCC rejects. The ALCC also catechizes its people using the Catechism fo the Catholic Church and The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church instead of Luther’s Small and Large Catechisms.

You see, before the ALCC petitioned to enter the Catholic Church, it had already accepted the Roman Catholic Faith in its entirety, Had it not already done so, I would not have filed its petition. The way the ALCC sees it, Martin Luther was a heretic; and the Lutheran Reformation (the entire Reformation in all its phases, for that matter) was a tragic, horrid mistake of epic proportions. That mistake has gone on for 500 years too long, and it is time to recant and return as penitents seeking to work to reunite Christ’s Church. For the penitential nature of the ALCC’s petition to Rome, note the last paragraph on its petition toward the bottom of the page on this website: stmichaelsalcc.org/News.dsp . The bottom line is that or the ALCC, the Roman Catholic Church is in fact the True Church, it always has been and always shall be. There for it, entering the Roman Catholic Church is not only the right thing to do - - - it is the only thing to do.

As far as Lutheran Culture, you could summarize that as elements of Northern German and for our Minnesota parishes, Scandanavian Culture: Music, art, customs, and such (which are shared with Catholics in Northern Germany and in Scandanavia. As those are purely cultural elements with no theological implications, we do not need to ask Rome for permission to keep those purely cultural, non-theological elements. You can even hear "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God sung during the Sunday Mass on EWTN.

Mikeoffaith, I suggest you get a copy of the current Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it prayerfully with an open mind. It just might change your life.

Blessings,
Irl

Please excuse any typos. Proof reading is not my long suit

 

[IAGladfelter]

So again, what makes you a Lutheran Community?

That has been asked and answered earlier on this thread, Mike.

Once the ALCC has entered the Catholic Church, our members expect to be simply good Catholics like everyone else in the Church. Someone recently asked the ALCC’s Bishop of Florida what the former members of the ALCC would do once they were brought into the Catholic Church. His answer was: “Whatever the Pope asks us to do.” I second that enthusiastically.

Blessings,
Irl

 

[JonNC]

That has been asked and answered earlier on this thread, Mike.

Once the ALCC has entered the Catholic Church, our members expect to be simply good Catholics like everyone else in the Church. Someone recently asked the ALCC’s Bishop of Florida what the former members of the ALCC would do once they were brought into the Catholic Church. His answer was: “Whatever the Pope asks us to do.” I second that enthusiastically.

Blessings,
Irl

Hi Irl,
You know from our conversations in the past that I admire and respect the decision of the ALCC to ask for unity with Rome, so please don’t misunderstand this comment.

I think the word you used to me on another thread some time ago, that best answers Mike’s question is; capitulation. That seems to be the position of the ALCC. I pray for the success of your desire to reconcile with Rome, and that all your members be blessed in word and sacrament by it.

Jon

 

[IowaJay]

For a Lutheran Ordinariate in full communion with the Catholic Church to succeed in drawing any Lutherans beyond the sparse number of people in the ALCC, a lot more will need to happen than capitulation. For starters, why not push the Vatican to follow through on Cardinal Ratzinger’s previous support for recognition of the Augsburg Confession as an authentic expression of the Catholic faith? Why not continue to use Luther’s Small Catechism as a teaching document of the faith? Its such a basic statement of the faith that there is really nothing in there that outside of the realm of catholicity. What kind of Lutheran patrimony is being preserved by the ALCC’s proposal?

 

[JonNC]

For a Lutheran Ordinariate in full communion with the Catholic Church to succeed in drawing any Lutherans beyond the sparse number of people in the ALCC, a lot more will need to happen than capitulation. For starters, why not push the Vatican to follow through on Cardinal Ratzinger’s previous support for recognition of the Augsburg Confession as an authentic expression of the Catholic faith? Why not continue to use Luther’s Small Catechism as a teaching document of the faith? Its such a basic statement of the faith that there is really nothing in there that outside of the realm of catholicity.

This is one way in which I, for one, would see no need for a contiuation of the current division between us, regardless of how the LCMS or other Lutheran Church bodies would respond.

Jon

 

[IAGladfelter]

This is one way in which I, for one, would see no need for a contiuation of the current division between us, regardless of how the LCMS or other Lutheran Church bodies would respond.

Jon

Guys, as I recall, the Pope only proposed a partial, limited recognition of some parts of the UAC as a catholic (small “c”) document only in the light of the Catholic Magisterium in the wake of the 4th and 5th Lateran Ecumenical Councils which left some issues unsettled. Those issues were settled definitively by the Council of Trent which closed in 1580. As you recall, in the end, the Pope did not even do that.There are elements within the UAC which do conflict with Catholic doctrine in a number of areas. The Roman Catholic Church is simply does not accept the insights of the Lutheran Reformation even if just barely, and neither does the ALCC. Besides, the UAC was not promulgated by the Pope or by an Ecumenical Council, let alone a regional council, so how could it have any standing in the Catholic Church?

Moving on: The traditional way of ecumenism has been a process of negotiations in which both sides make some accommodations with the result being greater understanding, respect, cooperation, and “peaceful coexistence,” but not the visible, corporate reunion of Christ’s Church in full communion with its bishops and the Successor to St. Peter.

The ALCC took a new and entirely different approach. As a Church - as a unified body, it developed to the point that it accepted the entire Roman Catholic faith unconditionally, keeping only those elements of Lutheranism which are in complete agreement with the Catholic Magisterium of today, and recanting everything else. Only then did it petition Rome, as penitents, to enter the Catholic Church. The end of the ALCC’s petition to Rome reads: “Your Prodigal Child has returned and is at your door step. Holy Father, please let us in.”

I would like to quote Fr. Chori Jonathin Seraiah, Rector of St. Aiden’s Anglican Church, Anglican Church in America, of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) who like us is patiently awaiting reception into full communion with the Catholic Church: Entering the Catholic Church “. . . is not supposed to be because it is ‘a nice thing to do’ but because 'it is the only right thing to do. If your heart is not there, and you are still thinking it is merely the best of the options, then you may need to rethink just what your actions are.”

Fr. Seraiah continues: "It is not a matter of logistics and pleasantness that should be leading us to this; it a matter of what is right and good. If my parish shooses not to join, then I must resign. If my wife chooses not to join, then I must join by myself. If my bishop chooses not to join, then I must ask him to release me. If the Pope decides he is better off without me being ordained, then I must say “thank you for considering me, and how can I serve best as a layman? . . . Unity is not a “good” thing - unity is a great thing. Unity is not a ‘nice thing’ - unity is a necessary thing. Come into the Catholic Church for the right reason. Seek unity because it is what Christ commanded (not ‘suggested’). Seek communion with Rome not because the ‘Roman Christians’ are cool or conservative, or Catholic. Seek communion with Rome, but not because it looks good to be unified. Seek communion with Rome because it is right. . . . I have no interest in driving someone away . . . but I do have a desire to make sure that no one come for the wrong reasons, and that no one be confused about what the right reasons are. May God’s grace be upon each of you as you week to make the right decision.” (reference: catholic.org/national/national_story.phd?id=40143)

Fr. Seraiah “gets it.” That is a fine meditation on the reunion of the Church. His sentiments are mine exactly; and also those of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church. Jon, Mikeoffaith and other fine “Evangelical Catholic” Lutherans following this thread, “may God’s grace be upon each of you as you seek to make the right decision.” To the Catholics following this thread, please continue to pray for the reunion of Christ’s Church. Ut Unum sint!

Blessings,
Irl

PS: As usual please excuse any typos and errors in grammar. Proofreading is not my strong suit

 

[IAGladfelter]

Hi Irl,
You know from our conversations in the past that I admire and respect the decision of the ALCC to ask for unity with Rome, so please don’t misunderstand this comment.

I think the word you used to me on another thread some time ago, that best answers Mike’s question is; capitulation. That seems to be the position of the ALCC. I pray for the success of your desire to reconcile with Rome, and that all your members be blessed in word and sacrament by it.

Jon

Thank you, Jon. By the way, you may use the word, “capitulation.” That is fair; but I prefer to say, “the ALCC has joyfully discovered and eagerly embraced the splendor of the Truth of the Catholic Faith.”

Blessings,
Jon

 

[Mikeoffaith]

You are correct, Mikeoffaith, the ALCC does reject those places in the Unaltered Augsburg Confession which disagree and/or are contrary to Catholic doctrine today. Let me clarify things for you, Mikeoffaith: The quatena the ALCC uses to view the Lutheran Confessions (except the Formula of Concord which we completely reject) is “insofar as they are in full agreement with the dogma, doctrines, spirituality, worship and polity of the Roman Catholic Magisterium as summarized in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church.”

What the ALCC actually does, is actually apply a “line item veto” to every line of the Lutheran Confessions (with the Formula of Concord omitted entirely.) Those lines which agree with the Catholic Magisterium / the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the ALCC accepts. Those lines - every one - which disagree with the Catholic Magisterium / the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the ALCC rejects. The ALCC also catechizes its people using the Catechism fo the Catholic Church and The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church instead of Luther’s Small and Large Catechisms.

You see, before the ALCC petitioned to enter the Catholic Church, it had already accepted the Roman Catholic Faith in its entirety, Had it not already done so, I would not have filed its petition. The way the ALCC sees it, Martin Luther was a heretic; and the Lutheran Reformation (the entire Reformation in all its phases, for that matter) was a tragic, horrid mistake of epic proportions. That mistake has gone on for 500 years too long, and it is time to recant and return as penitents seeking to work to reunite Christ’s Church. For the penitential nature of the ALCC’s petition to Rome, note the last paragraph on its petition toward the bottom of the page on this website: stmichaelsalcc.org/News.dsp . The bottom line is that or the ALCC, the Roman Catholic Church is in fact the True Church, it always has been and always shall be. There for it, entering the Roman Catholic Church is not only the right thing to do - - - it is the only thing to do.

As far as Lutheran Culture, you could summarize that as elements of Northern German and for our Minnesota parishes, Scandanavian Culture: Music, art, customs, and such (which are shared with Catholics in Northern Germany and in Scandanavia. As those are purely cultural elements with no theological implications, we do not need to ask Rome for permission to keep those purely cultural, non-theological elements. You can even hear "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God sung during the Sunday Mass on EWTN.

Mikeoffaith, I suggest you get a copy of the current Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it prayerfully with an open mind. It just might change your life.

Blessings,
Irl

Please excuse any typos. Proof reading is not my long suit

I have read the CCC, I have a fairly good understanding of Roman Catholic dogma and doctrine. But again, I don’t see where anything about you, except in name only, is Lutheran. So how is that you think of yourselves as Lutheran, when you are just really Roman Catholics who want to call themselves Lutheran for whatever reason?

 

[Mikeoffaith]

That has been asked and answered earlier on this thread, Mike.

Once the ALCC has entered the Catholic Church, our members expect to be simply good Catholics like everyone else in the Church. Someone recently asked the ALCC’s Bishop of Florida what the former members of the ALCC would do once they were brought into the Catholic Church. His answer was: “Whatever the Pope asks us to do.” I second that enthusiastically.

Blessings,
Irl

Sorry Irl, I saw that but it was in a following post. So again the question is why even pretend to be Lutheran?

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Hi Irl,
You know from our conversations in the past that I admire and respect the decision of the ALCC to ask for unity with Rome, so please don’t misunderstand this comment.

I think the word you used to me on another thread some time ago, that best answers Mike’s question is; capitulation. That seems to be the position of the ALCC. I pray for the success of your desire to reconcile with Rome, and that all your members be blessed in word and sacrament by it.

Jon

Yes Irl, I agree with Jon that if this is what you and your communities think best, I wholeheartedly support you in your journey. So please don’t take my questions as trying to convince you to do otherwise. Maybe our definitions of what Lutheran is or isn’t is at odds, and that is what I am trying to figure out.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

This is one way in which I, for one, would see no need for a contiuation of the current division between us, regardless of how the LCMS or other Lutheran Church bodies would respond.

Jon

I agree with you Jon and Jay. I certainly am encouraged by the Roman Catholic/Lutheran dialog that has been continuing since Vatican II that at some point we may have some unity.

 

[IAGladfelter]

Sorry Irl, I saw that but it was in a following post. So again the question is why even pretend to be Lutheran?

The short answer is that is what the ALCC is, is what it defines as “Lutheran,” until it are actually safely in the Roman Catholic Church under papal authority officially. Then, we will refer to ourselves, simply as Roman Catholics just like everyone else in the Catholic Church.

We are not “Independent Catholics” we have no intention of pulling Catholics, active or lapsed, away from the Catholic Church. We are fully Romanized Lutherans (to use a Lutheran term) interested in attracting other Lutherans to the splendor of the faith of the Roman Catholic Church just as did Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman and his small band of companions in England in the late 1800’s.

Until it is officially received into the Catholic Church, the ALCC will continue to self-identify itself as Lutheran of the evangelical catholic variety, and will be recognized as a Lutheran body by other Lutherans here and abroad. The LCMS, WELS, and other “confessing evangelical” Lutherans are free to think otherwise.

It is a basic ecumenical principle that each Church has an absolute right to describe itself to others according to its own self-understanding even of that self-understanding challenges the self-understanding of other Churches. Those who disagree have an absolute right to give their opinions on their own Church’s websites, blogs, forums, etc.

As I recall, a prominent, respected ELCA Lutheran pastor (I believe it was Pr. Russ Saltzman, but do not hold me to that, )once wrote something to the affect that in his opinion, buried deep in the very heart of evangelical catholic Lutheranism is the concept that Rome really is home; the implication being that the goal - and the ultimate fate - of the most serious evangelical catholic Lutherans is entrance into and absorption by the Roman Catholic Church. I agree.

For more information, go back to my post #50 on this thread. What the ALCC’s goal is, and its implications (both for the ALCC and for Lutheranism) should be obvious from what is posted there.

Blessings,
Irl

PS: For Catholics, Episcopalians, and other non-Lutherans, the term, “evangelical catholic” in Lutheranism’s “dialect” equals the Anglican term, “high church” and “Newmanite high church.” The term, “confessing evangelical” in Lutheranism’s “dialect” equals the Anglican term, “low church.”

P.SS. Please excuse any typos and errors of grammar. Proof reading is not my long suit.

 

[JonNC]

As I recall, a prominent, respected ELCA Lutheran pastor (I believe it was Pr. Russ Saltzman, but do not hold me to that, )once wrote something to the affect that in his opinion, buried deep in the very heart of evangelical catholic Lutheranism is the concept that Rome really is home; the implication being that the goal - and the ultimate fate - of the most serious evangelical catholic Lutherans is entrance into and absorption by the Roman Catholic Church. I agree.

I would agree with this, though more has to happen between us for me to be where you are (though I wish an ALCC parish were nearby to try it on ).

Jon