"Anglo-Saxons" in the Church

[Ridgerunner]

He really was. Very witty, but he could really be caustic, too. He had those half-moon glasses, and would look over them at you and deliver some withering remark if you said something stupid.

But I will also say something in his favor. We had to write a lengthy final research paper on some part of the Canterbury Tales. So, realizing as I did that the Wife of Bath’s Prologue is not only not just a “dirty story”, which most people think it is, it’s one of the most astonishing things ever written about true love, and Chaucer nails it. Almost nobody knows that, or at least did at the time. The challenge of that prof caused me to do some serious research and I wrote the paper on the “Love Ethic in the WBP”, comparing it to St. Thomas’ Aquinas’ analysis of love. They’re the same. St. Thomas expressed it syllogisms and Chaucer in allegory. In my research, I never did see that anyone had ever written about it in that way before; extracting elements of the WBT and comparing them to elements of St.Thomas’ analysis. Surprising, particularly since there was no certainty that Chaucer had ever read St. Thomas’ works. But then, it’s true that most people think the WBP is just a ribald joke and don’t give it a chance as perhaps the most serious part of the whole work.

I was always glad I took that course.

 

[Salibi]

I have understood that many Lebanese can speak French.

Kind of. Some are fluent, and French’s an official language in limited contexts, but most Lebanese just have a basic knowledge of French since our language has tons of French loanwords. Makes learning French infinitely easier, though.

Wasn’t Beirut once known as the “Paris of the Middle East

A long time ago, from before the civil war. You just made me nostalgic.

 

[CTBcin]

I recall a couple of times during the recent sexual abuse crisis that churchmen of other nationalities were bemoaning the “Anglo-Saxons” and their straightforward, inquisitive approach to the crisis. The unspoken part appeared to be that “if it weren’t for those pesky Anglo-Saxons, the top wouldn’t have blown off all this, and we could have kept things under wraps where they belonged”.

I don’t really understand the connection here. Besides, most “white” Catholics (at least in the US) have Irish, German, Italian, or Polish ancestry. To my knowledge, none of those groups are “Anglo-Saxon.” The same goes for Spanish, French, etc. The only Catholics who could truly identify as Anglo-Saxon are British Catholics, or those who have British ancestry, such as Australians. So, Catholics who are truly “Anglo-Saxon” make up a relative minority in the Church, even among white Catholics.

 

[Ridgerunner]

So, Catholics who are truly “Anglo-Saxon” make up a relative minority in the Church, even among white Catholics.

I would think it a very small minority in the U.S.

 

[Xarto]

Good man, we bristle at the whole “Anglo-Saxon” thing

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Good man, we bristle at the whole “Anglo-Saxon” thing

And who are “we”?

 

[Xarto]

Sorry thought it was obvious, I am Irish. Tá mé Éireannach, agus tá mé in a conaí i Baile Átha Cliath.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Tá mé Éireannach, agus tá mé in a conaí i Baile Átha Cliath.

Whatever you said, I agree with wholeheartedly I do know through my reading that “Baile Átha Cliath” is the Irish name for Dublin, and just guessing (without checking Google), I’d say that is probably pronounced something like “ballyclaw”.

 

[Xarto]

Tá mé Éireannach, agus tá mé in a conaí i Baile Átha Cliath.

Very good, not many woud know that. Unfortunately thats about the extent of my Irish (Tá mé Éireannach, agus tá mé in a conaí i Baile Átha Cliath. = I’m Irish and I live in Dublin) and pronounced Ball-yeah Aww-Clee-Ah but I heard had been pronounced as “Blaw-Clee-Ah” by native speakers at one time.

 

[Londoner]

Besides, most “white” Catholics (at least in the US) have Irish, German, Italian, or Polish ancestry.

Surely Hispanics must make up a large proportion of “white” Catholics in the USA.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Truthfully, I think the Franks, Burgundians and other Germanic peoples influenced French a lot more than people think they did. French is, indeed, considered a “Romance language”, but it isn’t as much of one as is, say, Spanish.

Spanish is also less Romance than one would think. Spain was ruled by the Visigoths for a period, and there are plenty of Germanic words, possibly from that period. There are also influences from Phoenecians and other ancient languages of the Mediterranean area. Then Arabic had a considerable influence too.

 

[Salibi]

Then Arabic had a considerable influence too.

Indeed. These Arabic words were then adopted into French from Spanish. Later, after the Norman Conquest, Arabic words reached English through French. Words like alcohol, coffee, algreba, lemon… quite the linguistic trip.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Indeed. These Arabic words were then adopted into French from Spanish. Later, after the Norman Conquest, Arabic words reached English through French. Words like alcohol, coffee, algreba, lemon… quite the linguistic trip.

This is largely true of course, and I don’t want to contradict you.

Only the bit about the Norman Conquest. At the time of the Norman Conquest, most of Spain was still under Islamic rule and I don’t think these words would have had the time to reach French, let alone Norman French (which at the time of the Norman Conquest was actually distinct from proper French). These words must have entered the English language at a later point.

Coffee was not widely drunk in the Arabic world until the 15th Century, and was later introduced to Europe by the Ottoman Turks, not by the Arabs, even if the word itself is Arabic in origin (prior to the discovery of coffee beans, the ancient Arabs actually drank hot grape juice, and the word coffee originally refered to that). So I don’t think it likely that this word was transmitted to English by way of Spanish, and it was definitely not part of the Norman Conquest.

 

[Salibi]

don’t want to contradict you.

Oh, think nothing of it-I don’t mind at all. On the contrary, I appreciate correction- that’s how we grow in knowledge, after all.

most of Spain was still under Islamic rule and I don’t think these words would have had the time to reach French,

Don’t know much about Moorish (the Ummayads, was it?) Spain, but I don’t see why not?

Coffee was not widely drunk in the Arabic world until the 15th Century,

Indeed. This is the earliest attestation of Muslim Sufis drinking it.

I’m afraid you have a much deeper understanding of the subject than I. I only contributed what I knew- wrong info, it seems! Apologies for the misinformation.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Surely Hispanics must make up a large proportion of “white” Catholics in the USA.

While Hispanics are often Caucasian (sometimes mixed with indigenous and/or African immigrant ancestry), they are often treated as a separate ethnicity for statistical or government purposes, because they’re seen as an oppressed minority group. Example would be when you check off a box for your racial background on a form in USA, the categories are often something like “White, African-American, Asian-American, Native American, Hispanic/ Latino” thus treating Hispanic as a separate category from White.

 

[Ridgerunner]

distinct from proper French

I beg your pardon! My name is Norman-Irish and I think it’s perfectly proper! (Kidding here)

Funny how family traditional stories can sometimes be right. My Norman-Irish forbears always said they were from Ireland, alright, but that they were originally from France. They had no idea what that meant. It was just a family tradition. Later, of course, I learned that our name is Norman in origin and the ancestry does, indeed, trace back to Normandy (from Denmark)

drank hot grape juice

Yoho! Think I’ll pass on that one. (What were they thinking?)

 

[Londoner]

Thanks. That makes sense.

I remember that I have heard something like this before, but it wasn’t explained that clearly. It was in connection with casting the role of Maria in a production of West Side Story, and there was protest when a “white” woman was cast in the role. I was puzzled because, as a European, I have always thought of Spanish (and Portuguese) people as “white”—we certainly don’t classify people from the Iberian peninsular as belonging to a separate “race” compared with other Europeans. But even allowing for that fact that a lot of Latin Americans also have indigenous American and African ancestry, it continued to seem strange to me that “Hispanic” or “Latino” would be considered as a “race”, which other Romance peoples of Europe, such as Italians and Romanians, would be thought of as “white”.

However, if the explanation is based on Hispanic or Latino people being regarded as a minority with specific needs that does make sense. Where I live, Irish Travellers are treated as a distinct ethnic minority, despite the fact that there is no evidence that they are genetically distinct from other Irish people. Obviously it goes without saying that we appreciate that “race” is meaningless in a biological sense, and so I suppose we can therefore make up “racial” categories based on social utility. We subdivide “white” into “White British”, “White Irish”, and “White Other”, but how people choose to identify is often just to do with how long their ancestors have been here for. If you’re a Pole who arrived here last week it’s probably useful to call yourself “White Other”, whereas if you’re the great-grandchild of Poles who came here during the Second World War, you’re probably “White British”, as the government isn’t actually interested in analysing your DNA.

 

[Pattylt]

Maria in a production of West Side Story, and there was protest when a “white” woman was cast in the role

Maria wasn’t Spanish, she was Puerto Rican! And the Jets were mostly Polish and Irish if I remember correctly! I was in a summer theater company and played Anita and I’m as white as they come but we had no Latinos in Ohio back then! That’s what makeup is for!

Edit to add…Tony was Italian wasn’t he?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

which other Romance peoples of Europe, such as Italians and Romanians, would be thought of as “white”.

There was a time not that long ago in US history where Italians were considered “swarthy” and “not white” by many. For a lot of people in US, “white” has meant Northern European. Italians are very well assimilated into US culture now and unlike the Hispanics they have not tended to come illegally to USA, nor did they push for having their Italian language used in school, in court etc.

 

[tomarin]

I read a biography of Frank Sinatra a few years ago and one thing that surprised me was the lengths to which many Jewish and Italian people went to disguise their origins up until the 1960’s apparently (and maybe beyond). Sinatra’s father was a boxer born in Sicily but he chose an Irish-sounding name as his stage name.

In one incident described in the biography, a paparazzo went out of his way to shoot a photo of Sinatra eating spaghetti at a restaurant and Sinatra punched him (and maybe broke his camera), he was so enraged at the stunt this photographer was pulling.