Anguish and misery for the state of the Church

[Caesar]

I’ll be frank. I am angry and frustrated at the state of the Church today. My tolerance level is near the breaking point.

I read things about the Dutch Dominicans who created their own Mass and declare the priesthood unecessary; or their superiors who either support them or refuse to take action against them; or the Archbishop of San Francisco who gave Holy Communion to a group of anti-Catholic transvestite sodomite men who dress as sisters of the Church and mock the faith, in a parish that actively supports homosexuality. I hear countless stories of liturgical abuse, dissident educators, priests preaching heresy, teachers openly defying doctrine. I have seen, in my former diocese, Catholic priests “concelebrating” a “Mass” with protestants during a gay pride festival. No small number of bishops can either be categorized as part of the problem or too incompetant to do anything about it. And there are not isolated incidents, or rare occurences.

And where is Rome? Well, it seems that while the faithful are poisioned with erroneous teaching, orthodoxy is stamped out by heterodox dissidents who thrust Vatican II before them like a banner, and dioceses are embroiled in a sea of scandal and corruption, the Pope and the Roman curia are off in their own little world tackling far more important issues like enviromentalism, ecumenism, and reminding people that the Holy See does not in fact own a popular Italian soccer team (no joke, that was the big news out of Vatican City a couple days ago…). Does Rome care? Have they even noticed?

In the last month not a day has gone by where I do not stop for a moment and consider that maybe, just maybe, the SSPX has a point.

 

[Walking_Home]

I’ll be frank. I am angry and frustrated at the state of the Church today. My tolerance level is near the breaking point.

I read things about the Dutch Dominicans who created their own Mass and declare the priesthood unecessary; or their superiors who either support them or refuse to take action against them; or the Archbishop of San Francisco who gave Holy Communion to a group of anti-Catholic transvestite sodomite men who dress as sisters of the Church and mock the faith, in a parish that actively supports homosexuality. I hear countless stories of liturgical abuse, dissident educators, priests preaching heresy, teachers openly defying doctrine. I have seen, in my former diocese, Catholic priests “concelebrating” a “Mass” with protestants during a gay pride festival. No small number of bishops can either be categorized as part of the problem or too incompetant to do anything about it. And there are not isolated incidents, or rare occurences.

And where is Rome? Well, it seems that while the faithful are poisioned with erroneous teaching, orthodoxy is stamped out by heterodox dissidents who thrust Vatican II before them like a banner, and dioceses are embroiled in a sea of scandal and corruption, the Pope and the Roman curia are off in their own little world tackling far more important issues like enviromentalism, ecumenism, and reminding people that the Holy See does not in fact own a popular Italian soccer team (no joke, that was the big news out of Vatican City a couple days ago…). Does Rome care? Have they even noticed?

In the last month not a day has gone by where I do not stop for a moment and consider that maybe, just maybe, the SSPX has a point.

---

The million dollar question . It kinda seems we have become orphans—left to flounder.

 

[Lepanto]

Churchmen have been trying to destroy the Church (intentionally or inadvertently) since the first century. That much is nothing new.

Although I also get very frustrated, I try to remember Christ’s promise that He would be with the Church to the end of time.

Keep fighting the good fight…but never lose hope!

 

[havemercy]

And here I thought you were a man of no worries.

Yes. What is most disturbing to me is the widespread idiot formation some priests receive. In the name of being pastoral, liturgical abuse runs rampant. Even if such ignorance is invincible, the just displeasure of God will eventually be known to the Church (if it hasn’t already yet been).

Kyrie Eleison. All Saints, pray for us.

 

[dbacks5439]

Churchmen have been trying to destroy the Church (intentionally or inadvertently) since the first century. That much is nothing new.

Although I also get very frustrated, I try to remember Christ’s promise that He would be with the Church to the end of time.

Keep fighting the good fight…but never lose hope!

Never stop fighting till the fight is done!

Ok, I kinda, just kinda, “stole” that line from The Untouchables. Miserere me.

I go to a "Catholic" university. I am a theology major, but I have to constantly double check what my professors tell me to be sure it's correct. I've had my dealings with "Vatican II dissenters", including one professor. He says that Vat. II did away with the "old" meaning of Confession. Nowadays, according to the First Church of Me, Confession is a means by which we give thanks to God for already forgiving us. Well, I gave him and my class a lengthy paper proving otherwise. Never heard a peep about Confession from him since! 

My advice to you is what my confessor (Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest priest) told me. "You are a soldier for Christ. Pick up your weapons and make them (demons) pay for what they did to you." No, I don't want you to kill them all. The point is, you have to fight with love. Love them as Christ loves you, a sinner. Think about how Catholics lived during the Crusades, the decades after 1054, or the Reformation. Those were the crosses they had to bear. Pick up your cross, and pray that the Church will finally enter the period of rejuvenation that the Council called for. It will happen, the Holy Spirit will make sure that it will. I get discouraged constantly, but the fire in me burns ever hotter. We must fight!

 

[Caesar]

And here I thought you were a man of no worries.

Ha! Hardly

 

[bear06]

In the last month not a day has gone by where I do not stop for a moment and consider that maybe, just maybe, the SSPX has a point.’

Don’t get so down in the dumps! Next we’ll be wondering if Luther had a point too!

Everytime I see a post like this I like to post this response:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=254942&postcount=6

Sometimes the laity needs to stop throwing up their hands in disgust and get down in the mud and do something! Frustration is a tool of the devil.

 

[DustinsDad]

I’ll be frank. I am angry and frustrated at the state of the Church today…

Hello Caesar,

I’m hearing ya man. I also echo what the other folks here are saying as well - keep up the fight.Also, look at it this way. We are actually blessed to be living right now. God chose us to be here. Right here, right now. It’s hard enough to be faithful in the best of times - but think of the difficulty we are enduring right now in these times…and yet the Lord still blesses us with the gift of faith. Keep it - use it - share it. What treasure lies ahead if, by the grace of God, we get through the trials and leave this world in His friendship!!!

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Catholic29]

Well, there had better be some official magisterial action done in regard to this very soon, or I might be heading down Caesar’s stated path as well.

Blatent, in your face, blasphemy and sacrilege! All done in the presence and complicitness of one of Holy Mother Church’s appointed shepherds, simply disgusting!!!

Here are here are the threads.

 

[I_Believe]

In the last month not a day has gone by where I do not stop for a moment and consider that maybe, just maybe, the SSPX has a point.

I feel the same way Caesar. I have an SSPX chapel about a mile and a half from my home. I’d love to attend Mass there, but until they work out their issues with Rome, I’ll have to wait.

As far as the Curia living in another world, well, in a way they do. I may be wrong, but I suspect that they don’t see the abuses at the Masses they attend. They read about them, and I’m sure they hear about them constantly, but where do they start ?

Take the Dutch Dominican issue as an example. This is a fairly recent problem. We can’t really expect the Vatican to come down on them forcefully without first investigating the issue. It needs to be addressed right away obviously, and I’m sure it will be.

I’m beginning to believe that a lot of parishes have abuses in their NO Masses because the parishioners and priest simply don’t know any better. The laity are introduced to, say, liturgical dancers. They think it’s ok. Must be, or Father Joe Doe wouldn’t permit it. That is the mindset.

On these fora, one can see what is happening in the Church. The good and also the questionable. But the majority of Catholics don’t come to these forums. Most are aware of what is going on in their parish and Diocese, but few are aware of Church Tradition and history. I’d be willing to bet that the overwelming majority couldn’t tell you or me what Vatican II Council intended or even the name of the Pope who called it. They are ok with whatever their Pastor is happy with.

There are times here lately I think " I wish I’d never found this or any other catholic forum." I’ve spent hour and hours reading documents, trying to figure out if Vatican II was really that bad. And I must say, I’m won over by the Traditionalist viewpoint.

So now I’m left in the same frame of mind many are. Ashamed of some things going on, but frustrated as to what to do about it.
I remain obedient to Rome, so I can’t just go running down to the SSPX chapel and prostrate myself before the priest asking to be led to truth and piety. But there sure are times I feel like it.

Thankfully we can find comfort in prayer and devotions such as Adoration. The misguided can’t take that away from us.

 

[Unitas]

I’m right there with you. But we must not relent or despair!

You know just as well as I do that God works mostly through men. Perhaps it is in this way that, only by the grace and strength of God, those who fight the good fight keep the gates of hell from prevailing. Meaning hell will never prevail because there will always be people who, in following the will of God, won’t let it happen.

That’s where people who are disgusted with such abuse come in. If we give ourselves completely to God then we become His tools to use as He pleases. If this means fighting against the tide of dissent then we gladly do so.

There will always be those who are weak and unwilling to stand up for God. But we’re assured there will always be people willing to stand for God because we’re assured that hell will not prevail. All Catholics are called to be those people.

 

[thecoach]

I’ll be frank. I am angry and frustrated at the state of the Church today. My tolerance level is near the breaking point.

I read things about the Dutch Dominicans who created their own Mass and declare the priesthood unecessary; or their superiors who either support them or refuse to take action against them; or the Archbishop of San Francisco who gave Holy Communion to a group of anti-Catholic transvestite sodomite men who dress as sisters of the Church and mock the faith, in a parish that actively supports homosexuality. I hear countless stories of liturgical abuse, dissident educators, priests preaching heresy, teachers openly defying doctrine. I have seen, in my former diocese, Catholic priests “concelebrating” a “Mass” with protestants during a gay pride festival. No small number of bishops can either be categorized as part of the problem or too incompetant to do anything about it. And there are not isolated incidents, or rare occurences.

And where is Rome? Well, it seems that while the faithful are poisioned with erroneous teaching, orthodoxy is stamped out by heterodox dissidents who thrust Vatican II before them like a banner, and dioceses are embroiled in a sea of scandal and corruption, the Pope and the Roman curia are off in their own little world tackling far more important issues like enviromentalism, ecumenism, and reminding people that the Holy See does not in fact own a popular Italian soccer team (no joke, that was the big news out of Vatican City a couple days ago…). Does Rome care? Have they even noticed?

In the last month not a day has gone by where I do not stop for a moment and consider that maybe, just maybe, the SSPX has a point.

And thus my confusion as well. I really dont think Vat 2 has been seen properly at all, but just my opinion. Tell me, what is the difference between a Traditionalist and SSPX anyway?

From what I see, the RCC is like the old ROman EMpire, becoming to big to effectively manage. Bishops and priests go renegade with noone to stop them.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Tell me, what is the difference between a Traditionalist and SSPX anyway?

Traditionalist is an umbrella term which means that many people fit under it and could be considered a ‘traditionalist’. However, there is a wide range of beliefs within the so-called “traditionalist” movement.

The SSPX are a schismatic group who are at odds with the Church, primarily because they believe that Vatican II changed Church teaching. They reject Vatican II and all of its reforms. They also dislike the new Mass, although Lefebvre stated on numerous occasions that he believed it was valid. Their problem with the N.O is that they claim it does not express Catholic doctrine clearly and fully. Some even claim that the consecration is not valid.

There are also some “traditionalists” who are sede vacantists. They believe that there is no valid Pope and that the See of Peter is vacant. They have many different opinions as to why this is. All are bogus in my opinion.

However, there are some people within the RCC who simply prefer the Tridentine Mass. These people (myself included) have no problems with the Novus Ordo and see it as perfectly valid and legitimate. They simply have a preference for the older Liturgy.

Not all traditionalist are orthodox Catholics and not all orthodox Catholics are traditionalists.

The Catholics who identify themselves as ‘traditionalist’ are usually conservative and orthodox in their beliefs. That is why many on this subforum get upset when they see abuses and hear of heretical teaching passed off as truth.

In my opinion, the traditional Catholic movement is growing stronger and stronger. The FSSP seminaries are full as are those of Christ the King. People have a desire for authentic, orthodox teaching and are aligning themselves with the traditionalist movement. People are sick of the dissenters and liberalism that is ruining the Church.

 

[latinmasslover]

In the last month not a day has gone by where I do not stop for a moment and consider that maybe, just maybe, the SSPX has a point.

’

Don’t get so down in the dumps! Next we’ll be wondering if Luther had a point too!

Everytime I see a post like this I like to post this response:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=254942&postcount=6

Sometimes the laity needs to stop throwing up their hands in disgust and get down in the mud and do something! Frustration is a tool of the devil.

Why do you think the TLM is “legally” back? Because of the “traditionalists,” who are nothing more than practicing Catholics. It’s people with similar opinions to yours that happen to be in power and are respected by the worldly majority, which is why things don’t seem to be getting done. You all keep condemning us for holding to the holy traditions, using a false interpretation of V-II to back your erroneous accusations. When the Pope gets the Church back on track, will you remain loyal?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

’

Why do you think the TLM is “legally” back? Because of the “traditionalists,” who are nothing more than practicing Catholics. It’s people with similar opinions to yours that happen to be in power and are respected by the worldly majority, which is why things don’t seem to be getting done. You all keep condemning us for holding to the holy traditions, using a false interpretation of V-II to back your erroneous accusations. When the Pope gets the Church back on track, will you remain loyal?

As per usual, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about. Bear06 is an orthodox Catholic who attends the NO Mass offered in Latin exclusively. Also, the paranoid martyr complex seemingly inherent in the “traditionalist” position rings through your post. No one condemns you for holding to holy TRADITION. No one condemns you for holding onto even tradition that is not immutable, should you choose to do so (YOU, however, dismiss out of hand in a disdainful fashion any attempt to discuss, per another thread, the possibility of any change to those areas of tradition that are certainly capable of change, ie, the idea of the EF in the vernacular, which many believe would put paid to the liturgy wars and force the liberals and feminist progressivists to make a final choice). And it isn’t people like YOU who are going to suffer if the Church (the Church in the West, really, it’s far more robust elsewhere) declines because people refuse to heed Pope Benedict. YOUR type has already proven they’ll go into disobedient schism (it’s being contemplated here in this thread), which is every bit as dangerous as the liberal progressivists’ position. The people who are really going to suffer are people like Bear, who are determined to remain obedient and “in the boat,” we “neo-conservatives,” for want of a better term.

 

[bear06]

Why do you think the TLM is “legally” back? Because of the “traditionalists,” who are nothing more than practicing Catholics. It’s people with similar opinions to yours that happen to be in power and are respected by the worldly majority, which is why things don’t seem to be getting done. You all keep condemning us for holding to the holy traditions, using a false interpretation of V-II to back your erroneous accusations. When the Pope gets the Church back on track, will you remain loyal?

Here we go again. Would you please stop with the martyr complex? Nobody here is condemning anyone here. Your whole response is way out in left field.

And, btw, I didn’t know the Holy Father was a traditionalist (in the sense we all use the word). Also, I’m a big supporter of the EF in our diocese. We’ve always had it for almost 20 years and under the bishop I fought for and appointed by JPII, who heard our cry, it’s flourishing. If you think simply hoping and praying for the spread of the EF is all you need to do, fine. I personally feel called to combat the abuses to all Masses with prayer, fasting and far more tactics. It’s a heck of a lot better than sitting around and whining about them.l

 

[bear06]

As per usual, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about. Bear06 is an orthodox Catholic who attends the NO Mass offered in Latin exclusively. Also, the paranoid martyr complex seemingly inherent in the “traditionalist” position rings through your post. No one condemns you for holding to holy TRADITION. No one condemns you for holding onto even tradition that is not immutable, should you choose to do so (YOU, however, dismiss out of hand in a disdainful fashion any attempt to discuss, per another thread, the possibility of any change to those areas of tradition that are certainly capable of change, ie, the idea of the EF in the vernacular, which many believe would put paid to the liturgy wars and force the liberals and feminist progressivists to make a final choice). And it isn’t people like YOU who are going to suffer if the Church (the Church in the West, really, it’s far more robust elsewhere) declines because people refuse to heed Pope Benedict. YOUR type has already proven they’ll go into disobedient schism (it’s being contemplated here in this thread), which is every bit as dangerous as the liberal progressivists’ position. The people who are really going to suffer are people like Bear, who are determined to remain obedient and “in the boat,” we “neo-conservatives,” for want of a better term.

Yeah, like he said. But seriously, the other people who suffer are the traditionalist loyal to the Magisterium of the Church. The EF can stand on its own two feet. There doesn’t have to be a constant put down of my Mass to promote the EF. This is a big turn off to some who might just fall in love with the EF but are wary of some who attend.

Again, Andreas and AJV are great promoters of the EF/TLM or whatever you want to call it. Their love and knowledge of it is beautiful and quite attractive. I often suggest to people (privately) that if they’re interested in it, they should read their posts.

 

[Sure]

Caesar,

Hang in there, buddy.

Good things are happening all over. Think of the strong young bishops who continue to be appointed all around us. Think of the new motu proprio and the news of extraordinary Masses in places we never expected. Think of the rebirth and growth in newly “cleaned” diocesan seminaries and strong young religious orders. Think of the fine young priests who are being ordained. Our Church is paying MUCH more attention to tradition than 20 years ago.

We all must continue to pray, continue to support good priests and parishes, and continue to speak the Truth.

God bless you!

 

[Genesis315]

I am currently reading Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich’s “Dolorious Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ” and I just finished the portion where He sees all the sins of mankind, especially of those in the Church. She includes those yet to come (after her time-1800s), which I can see specifically being fulfilled in our time.

But after describing these outrages, she mentions another group who pains our Lord just as much who “passed on in disgust at the wounds of His Church, as the Levite passed the poor man who had fallen among the robbers. Like unto cowardly and faithless children, who desert their mother in the middle of the night at the sight of thieves and robbers, they fled from His wounded Spouse.”

We need devoted souls in the battle. All groups like the SSPX do is stay out of the fray and just watch and comment contemptuously or pretend the battle doesn’t exist at all or simply cause more problems–as St. Basil said during a similar time in Church history:

“For the saddest thing about it all is that the sound part is divided against itself, and the troubles we are suffering are like those which once befell Jerusalem when Vespasian was besieging it. In our case too, the Churches are reduced to utter helplessness by the war raging among those who are supposed to be orthodox.”

Instead we need to persevere patiently. I cannot stress patience enough, as St. Catherine says, “the love of divine charity is so closely joined in the soul with perfect patience, that neither can leave the soul without the other…”

This is the path to authentic reform (the Father speaking to her in The Dialogue):

“Therefore I give My servants hunger and desire for My honor, and the salvation of souls, so that, constrained by their tears, I may mitigate the fury of My divine justice. Take, therefore, your tears and your sweat, drawn from the fountain of My divine love, and, with them, wash the face of My Spouse. I promise you, that, by this means, her beauty will be restored to her, not by the knife nor by cruelty, but peacefully, by humble and continued prayer, by the sweat and the tears shed by the fiery desire of My servants, and thus will I fulfill your desire if you, on your part, endure much, casting the light of your patience into the darkness of perverse man…again I repeat my promise, that through the long endurance of My servants I will reform My spouse. Wherefore I invite you to endure, Myself lamenting with you over her iniquities.”

Maybe it is because I have been a greater sinner or committer of sacrilege in the past than the rest of you, but I can trust in the grace of God and prayer that if I have been saved from those ways, then others can too. I just need to always heed the words of the Apostle:

Titus 3 3 For we ourselves also were some time unwise, incredulous, erring, slaves to divers desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us.

It is my own lack of humility and self-knowledge that allows me to be angry with others who commit crimes that in times past with less mediums of communication would never have been known beyond a small locale, but are no less abominable than my own, except mine were mercifully not broadcast across the globe. I should have the utmost compassion and pity for those in the state I was, pouring out my love and tears and groans as Christ did for poor sinners, even though He was spotless, while it is only from the mercy of God that I am not burning in Gehenna at this moment.

Complaining about sinners, fleeing from them, losing faith in the power and grace of Jesus Christ all will do nothing but allow our own souls to plunge into darkness. Patience, penances, prayer, and the fire of Divine love enkindled and spread by the Holy Spirit will make a difference.

 

[Writer]

I share the frustration voiced by the original poster, but I am reluctant to heap blame on Vatican II. I’d suggest that it has more to do with a shallow understanding or poor implementation of Vatican II–wanting it to say what it doesn’t. Our family discovered the Catholic Church largely because of Pope John Paul II. If Vatican II had not taken place, I am not sure we would have been so easliy led to the fullness of truth. I think I speak for many former Protestants whe I say that we’re here largely on account of the work of this great pope.

When I’ve tried taking concerns to a particular priest (not really related to Vatican II issues, but dealing with the appropriateness of certain “educational” material for the young), I have observed a tendency to not even respond. I finally had to take my concerns to the bishop’s office in order to get some corrective action. And priests aren’t too pleased when you go over their heads. So, I guess what I’m trying to say, is that one does need to stand up for what is right–whether at church or the office–but be prepared for the damaged relationships that result.