Anguish and misery for the state of the Church

[otjm]

.

Take a look at these photos. If this doesn’t turn your stomach then nothing will. This would NEVER happen in the Traditional Mass. Of course this doesn’t happen every day, but how can this ever happen?
renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/070619

And how does this Mass in Holland happen and why hasn’t there been an immediate response from the Church?

"In Nijmegen, Holland, in the church of the Augustinian friars, each Sunday the Mass is concelebrated by a Protestant and a Catholic, with one presiding over the liturgy of the Word and the sermon, and the other over the liturgy of the Eucharist, in alternation. The Catholic is almost always a layperson, and is often a woman. For the Eucharistic prayer, the texts of the missal are passed over in favor of texts composed by the former Jesuit Huub Oosterhuis. The bread and wine are shared by all. "
chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/170066?eng=y

In two thousand years there has not been an immediate response from the Church.

To begin with, much of what goes on simply doe not get to the desk of those who could or would bring someone in on the carpet. And even when it does, there are proceedures to be followed - it is that nasty thing called law and rights. If a local court system takes years to adjudicate an issue, why would anyone presume that a system that is world wide would act faster?

Coupled with that is this frustration that the Pope is not micro managing each and every parish, let alone each and every diocese. He doesn’t; his predecessors didn’t, and the future popes won’t either. Christ lost one - Judas - but we seem to forget that all of the apostles fled.

 

[otjm]

I cannot say much since I have not been around long. And I respect you for correcting me. But, what do you mean “what is on the increase is [my] awareness?”

As we age into adulthood, more and more of what adults pay attention to comes into our view, and takes our attention.

As one becomes aware that something is not right in the immediate surroundings, if one continues to pay attention, other things not right in the not immediate surroundings are noticed. And it continues to expand as one continues to focus on what is not right.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Christ lost one - Judas - but we seem to forget that all of the apostles fled.

Except John (my namesake).

 

[Image_of_God]

As we age into adulthood, more and more of what adults pay attention to comes into our view, and takes our attention.

As one becomes aware that something is not right in the immediate surroundings, if one continues to pay attention, other things not right in the not immediate surroundings are noticed. And it continues to expand as one continues to focus on what is not right.

Now I understand, and that makes perfect sense. But I am kind of shy in letting people know I am “conservative.” Even though people are beginning to find out.

 

[francesco920]

I’ll be frank. I am angry and frustrated at the state of the Church today. My tolerance level is near the breaking point.

I read things about the Dutch Dominicans who created their own Mass and declare the priesthood unecessary; or their superiors who either support them or refuse to take action against them; or the Archbishop of San Francisco who gave Holy Communion to a group of anti-Catholic transvestite sodomite men who dress as sisters of the Church and mock the faith, in a parish that actively supports homosexuality. I hear countless stories of liturgical abuse, dissident educators, priests preaching heresy, teachers openly defying doctrine. I have seen, in my former diocese, Catholic priests “concelebrating” a “Mass” with protestants during a gay pride festival. No small number of bishops can either be categorized as part of the problem or too incompetant to do anything about it. And there are not isolated incidents, or rare occurences.

And where is Rome? Well, it seems that while the faithful are poisioned with erroneous teaching, orthodoxy is stamped out by heterodox dissidents who thrust Vatican II before them like a banner, and dioceses are embroiled in a sea of scandal and corruption, the Pope and the Roman curia are off in their own little world tackling far more important issues like enviromentalism, ecumenism, and reminding people that the Holy See does not in fact own a popular Italian soccer team (no joke, that was the big news out of Vatican City a couple days ago…). Does Rome care? Have they even noticed?

In the last month not a day has gone by where I do not stop for a moment and consider that maybe, just maybe, the SSPX has a point.

Caesar, do not lose hope! Yes, there are all those evil things you pointed out, but there is also much hope. For example, Summorum Pontificum and the comments made by Archbishop Ranjith recently. And there is the fact that EWTN is training its priests to be able to say the TLM probably on a regular basis. There are also many good and holy bishops out there, such as Bishop Bruskewitz, Archbishop Burke, Bishop Baker, Cardinal Hoyos, and of course the Holy Father himself, just to name a few off the top of my head. Traditional groups who are loyal to Rome such as the FSSP and ICKSP are experiencing great success.

I agree with you that the SSPX has a point, but just because they have that point does not justify their schism. I hope that they are reconciled to the Church soon.

Remain loyal to Rome. The Church desperately needs people like you.

 

[bear06]

We might think in our minds that most things in Church are now better. The dissenters are still out there spreading confusion among the people of God, and they are as audacious as ever.

I think that most of us here realize that the state of the Church is not the greatest at this moment. I also think that most of the us would say to take on the dissenters with both barrels. We have to be ever mindful that the devil uses frustration and anguish against us quite easily. We need to make sure we’re not looking for the ever allusive silver bullet. There is no such thing. God never promised that there wouldn’t be turmoil in the Faith. Actually, He guaranteed quite the opposite. Thankfully, we know He wins in the end.

 

[Cat]

I haven’t had time to read this whole thread yet, but my first reaction was to say, along with one of my dear elderly priests: It’s great to be Catholic!

Maybe those of us who are converts from Protestants are still in awe over the castle that we now live in (as opposed to the tent we used to live in).

Anyway, I say stop fretting and start thanking God for what He has wrought in the Catholic Church. Pray the St. Michael prayer often, and trust in Jesus to take care of His Church.

Just a simple ol’ ex evangelica Protestant offering her naive opinion here!

 

[RomanRevert]

Hang in there Caesar! I have the same disgust when I see some of the things going on out there. Remember, though, that the vast majority of Catholics are devout. Only the freakshows like the ones in San Francisco and Holland get to be in the news. Every time I get down on things like that, I remember what Peter said to Christ in John 6:

After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have known that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

Where else can we go? There is only one Church of Christ.

Peace!!

 

[latinmasslover]

As per usual, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about. Bear06 is an orthodox Catholic who attends the NO Mass offered in Latin exclusively. Also, the paranoid martyr complex seemingly inherent in the “traditionalist” position rings through your post. No one condemns you for holding to holy TRADITION. No one condemns you for holding onto even tradition that is not immutable, should you choose to do so (YOU, however, dismiss out of hand in a disdainful fashion any attempt to discuss, per another thread, the possibility of any change to those areas of tradition that are certainly capable of change, ie, the idea of the EF in the vernacular, which many believe would put paid to the liturgy wars and force the liberals and feminist progressivists to make a final choice). And it isn’t people like YOU who are going to suffer if the Church (the Church in the West, really, it’s far more robust elsewhere) declines because people refuse to heed Pope Benedict. YOUR type has already proven they’ll go into disobedient schism (it’s being contemplated here in this thread), which is every bit as dangerous as the liberal progressivists’ position. The people who are really going to suffer are people like Bear, who are determined to remain obedient and “in the boat,” we “neo-conservatives,” for want of a better term.

Now you’re going to condemn me for not personally knowing bear? Nice. I make a couple of points and you accuse me of being a paranoid martyr? “My type” is not in schism simply for disagreeing with some words or actions of the pope. Disobedience and schism are not the same thing dear, and if people refuse to listen to Pope Benedict because they don’t like “traditionalists” then they’re no different than Luther and those who followed in his footsteps. As for obedience: it is at the service of the Faith, not the other way around. Our first pope said it is better to obey God rather than men, and when it comes down to it, duh! Not every word uttered by the pope is Gospel, and to condemn somebody who doesn’t approve or validate bad decisions made by the pope, simply because he’s the pope, is absurd. You and others have a nasty habit of twisting what I say to fit your accusations. Grow up. Accuse me of something I’ve said and not a mentality you’d like to think I have.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Pardon the large, varied, post, but it’s kind of what happens when you jump in late and have a lot of people you’d like to respond to:

Don’t get so down in the dumps! Next we’ll be wondering if Luther had a point too!

I think I would put it another way. Luther had a point. Of course he had a point! The Vatican beaurocracy could easily be portrayed in his time (especially to Germans) as a money making scheme that, to paraphrase Luther, stole the Germans’ coins and left them holding the bag - and tweaking their noses while it happened. Pluralism and absenteeism, benefices “administered” by laymen, and other legal contrivances allowed many of those with the care of souls to do anything but. Still, all we should learn from this is that every lie has a kernel of truth, but that kernel doesn’t justify buying into the whole lie.

The SSPX have a point or two as well. There are glaring wounds on the body of the Church. The question for us, though, is not “Do they have a point?” but “What do we do about it?” I personally think Padre Pio should be one of the patron saints of the modern renewal of the Church. Here we have a man oppressed by an obviously unjust authority, yet instead of thumbing his nose at that authority he overcame its persecution through obedience and holiness. If anyone had what we might call a right to resist those above him, it was that saintly Capuchin. Yet he chose the course of Christ. Now, his obedience was bounded by a call to evangelical perfection in that regard, so we who are not so bound should exercise some of the more active remonstrance to recalcitrant clerics (or parish life coordinators, music directors, RCIA directors, etc.) enjoined on us by St. Thomas. Still, I think the example holds. The response to abuse at the hands of the Church is not to disobey her but to become ever more faithful to her.

So now I’m left in the same frame of mind many are. Ashamed of some things going on, but frustrated as to what to do about it.
I remain obedient to Rome, so I can’t just go running down to the SSPX chapel and prostrate myself before the priest asking to be led to truth and piety. But there sure are times I feel like it.

I honestly, having worked for an incredibly disfunctional diocese, have often wallowed in misery over the state of the Church. That said, though, I don’t think I’ve ever been tempted to flee to the SSPX et al. On the contrary, whenever I’ve thought “wistfully” of such groups, it has been a longing that they will come back to the Church in order to help her in time of need. So not “If only I could join them outside” but “if only they would come back so I could avail myself of their ministry.”

Or John Paul the Great. But I have great faith in Pope Benedict, not to mention the promise of Christ that the Church will not fail.

I don’t know exactly which pope I would say we need redivivus, but I don’t think John Paul II is the one. I will say with 100% seriousness that my first boy will, without a doubt, be named John Paul, so take this from one who loved him like a grandfather, but we need someone at this point who will complement that pope. He was great in many ways, but he also had areas in which he is open to strong criticism; rather than focus on criticism, though, we should look for someone whose strengths like more in those areas where JPII was weakest, thus balancing out his message and activity.

.

Take a look at these photos. If this doesn’t turn your stomach then nothing will. This would NEVER happen in the Traditional Mass. Of course this doesn’t happen every day, but how can this ever happen?
renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/070619

I can think of some more crazy things that would NEVER happen in the TLM. Like the priest sitting the host on his head and standing around for a few minutes so the people could look at it. Oh wait, that and so much more used to happen all the time. The Fathers of Trent drew up quite the list of outrageous abuses that needed to be corrected at the time, and it can be found in the Acta of the council (I’ve been trying google to get the exact section but can’t seem to succeed. Maybe they wouldn’t have had exactly this sort of thing, but the follies introduced by the English into certain of their Masses may have been just as bad. If you put a bad priest behind the wheel, the car will go off into the ditch no matter what rite he’s supposed to be using.

 

[Genesis315]

I like how you put that Andreas Hofer.

 

[latinmasslover]

He was great in many ways, but he also had areas in which he is open to strong criticism; rather than focus on criticism, though, we should look for someone whose strengths like more in those areas where JPII was weakest, thus balancing out his message and activity.

Beautifully put:thumbsup:

 

[Nordar]

Well, there had better be some official magisterial action done in regard to this very soon, or I might be heading down Caesar’s stated path as well.

Blatent, in your face, blasphemy and sacrilege! All done in the presence and complicitness of one of Holy Mother Church’s appointed shepherds, simply disgusting!!!

Here are here are the threads.

I am having a very difficult time understanding how The Pope can come out against Iran’s Anti Sematism, but nothing is said from the Vatican about this Blatant Anti Catholicism from Their Own Bishops! I totally do not get it!

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Or John Paul the Great. But I have great faith in Pope Benedict, not to mention the promise of Christ that the Church will not fail.

Correct me if this is incorrect but:

In 2001 John Paul II kissed the Qur’an, the holy book of Islam, and said “I receive the word of God.” This was meant as a sign of respect. However what it does in fact is an affront to Christ and to His martyrs. For example, when the first Franciscan martyrs were killed by the Almohad caliph in Spain they were given a few options:

1. They could convert to Islam 2) They could marry some beautiful women the Sultan had brought before them, since celibacy is despised in Islam 3) They just needed to kiss the Qur’an and they could return to their own country. The Franciscan protomartyrs, refused all of these, and were martyred for the faith.

Correct me if this is incorrect when I say that the **Qur’an:
Denies the Divinity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. **

Correct me if this is incorrect, but Did not Pope John Paul II ask this of the ‘Great’ St John the Baptist:

May Saint John Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan, and all who participated in this celebration, a memorable celebration. I’m very grateful to all of you.

Thank you very much
(NOTE this is From the HOLY SEE vatican.edu/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000321_wadi-al-kharrar_en.html)

Does the Roman Catholic Church attribute the title ‘Great’ in such cases mentioned above with regards to Pope John Paul II?
I am asking.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

Correct me if this is incorrect but:

In 2001 John Paul II kissed the Qur’an, the holy book of Islam, and said “I receive the word of God.”

Maybe he was just trying to get close enough to spit on it.

 

[Sure]

Does the Roman Catholic Church attribute the title ‘Great’ in such cases mentioned above with regards to Pope John Paul II?
I am asking.

Yes.

 

[otjm]

Correct me if this is incorrect but:

In 2001 John Paul II kissed the Qur’an, the holy book of Islam, and said “I receive the word of God.” This was meant as a sign of respect. However what it does in fact is an affront to Christ and to His martyrs. For example, when the first Franciscan martyrs were killed by the Almohad caliph in Spain they were given a few options:

1. They could convert to Islam 2) They could marry some beautiful women the Sultan had brought before them, since celibacy is despised in Islam 3) They just needed to kiss the Qur’an and they could return to their own country. The Franciscan protomartyrs, refused all of these, and were martyred for the faith.

Correct me if this is incorrect when I say that the **Qur’an:
Denies the Divinity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. **

Correct me if this is incorrect, but Did not Pope John Paul II ask this of the ‘Great’ St John the Baptist:

May Saint John Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan, and all who participated in this celebration, a memorable celebration. I’m very grateful to all of you.

Thank you very much
(NOTE this is From the HOLY SEE vatican.edu/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000321_wadi-al-kharrar_en.html)

Does the Roman Catholic Church attribute the title ‘Great’ in such cases mentioned above with regards to Pope John Paul II?
I am asking.

The act of kissing the book is a sign of respect; too many people equate a sign of respect with an acceptance of all within it. The two are not the same, and anyone who has studied John Paul 2’ life and writings would understand both the sign of respect, and what he thought of Islam.

As to praying for them and asking for their protection, it seems to me it was Christ who said “Pray for your enemies”, and I am sure that you would agree that we should follow Christ. And John Paul did no less.

And as to the martyrs, one can do something without showing disrespect for them; perhaps you feel otherwise. I would suspect that JP 2 meant no disrespect to them; if you take it as a sign of disrespect of them, perhaps you need to look further to determine if the act was intended as such. If it wasn’t, then you should not find that it does so.

 

[bear06]

I think I would put it another way. Luther had a point. Of course he had a point! The Vatican beaurocracy could easily be portrayed in his time (especially to Germans) as a money making scheme that, to paraphrase Luther, stole the Germans’ coins and left them holding the bag - and tweaking their noses while it happened. Pluralism and absenteeism, benefices “administered” by laymen, and other legal contrivances allowed many of those with the care of souls to do anything but. Still, all we should learn from this is that every lie has a kernel of truth, but that kernel doesn’t justify buying into the whole lie.

The SSPX have a point or two as well. There are glaring wounds on the body of the Church. The question for us, though, is not “Do they have a point?” but “What do we do about it?” I personally think Padre Pio should be one of the patron saints of the modern renewal of the Church. Here we have a man oppressed by an obviously unjust authority, yet instead of thumbing his nose at that authority he overcame its persecution through obedience and holiness. If anyone had what we might call a right to resist those above him, it was that saintly Capuchin. Yet he chose the course of Christ. Now, his obedience was bounded by a call to evangelical perfection in that regard, so we who are not so bound should exercise some of the more active remonstrance to recalcitrant clerics (or parish life coordinators, music directors, RCIA directors, etc.) enjoined on us by St. Thomas. Still, I think the example holds. The response to abuse at the hands of the Church is not to disobey her but to become ever more faithful to her.

Thanks for once again explaining what I meant! That said, I would clarify that I don’t think all of their points are valid. As Luther did, the SSPX has gone far beyond their catalyst points.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Yes.

Have there been similar cases? If there are can you provide the reference of how kissing the Qur’an and Praying for the Protection of Islam, a faith that denies the divinity of Christ who is GOD and the Trinity, are equated or similar? Thanks.

 

[Sure]

Have there been similar cases? If there are can you provide the reference of how kissing the Qur’an and Praying for the Protection of Islam, a faith that denies the divinity of Christ who is GOD and the Trinity, are equated or similar? Thanks.

1. Kissing a book when it is offered as a sign of respect to your hosts and not as a statement of Faith.
2. I pray for the protection of Islam along with all other religions in the hope that they may be protected ultimately through conversion to Catholicism. Don’t you? What better protection is there than conversion?