Animal cruelty and food

[Jaypeeto4]

To the last poster above,
your cattle-raising stories were funny, actually.
I can just picture a huge cow overreacting to a p(name removed by moderator)rick
and clobbering some hapless farmhand.
Yes, we are not them and they are not us.

(And I confess that when in the car and we used to drive by pastures
full of cows, I was one of the idiots that used to stick my head out the
windows and yell “MOO” at them. Gosh, I was a dolt.)

Love,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Mudgely]

I’ve heard that much of our food comes from factory farms that treat animals (sometimes very) cruelly. I have no intention of becoming a vegan, but since animal cruelty is a sin (right?) would eating food that is a product of this be a sinful action? I’ve seen answers on here before that say that eating at a restaurant that funds Planned Parenthood, etc. is not sinful, but wouldn’t this be different because the food is an actual product of the animal cruelty?

Thanks!

It is as unethical to buy food from one of the food factories as it is to buy pornography. One option (which I practice) is to buy at farmer’s markets. This way, I know where the food comes from, and how animals were treated, and the quality is higher. It also eliminates the middle tier of reseller who adds no value to the product, but whose methods reduce the quality and raise the price.

 

[admonsta]

It is as unethical to buy food from one of the food factories as it is to buy pornography. One option (which I practice) is to buy at farmer’s markets. This way, I know where the food comes from, and how animals were treated, and the quality is higher. It also eliminates the middle tier of reseller who adds no value to the product, but whose methods reduce the quality and raise the price.

Huh? Only if you knew for a fact that the particular food factory you’re buying from does indeed mistreat the animals.

I do believe that there are places that mistreat animals, but I don’t agree that the majority do. As someone said in a different thread, a mistreated animal will not give good produce. Hens treated badly will not give eggs. Cows treated badly will not give good meat or milk.

I once believed the propaganda from the animal activists, but I don’t any more. I believe that most farmers have morals.

 

[divinefaith]

There is no requirement for us to do deep research on every company or store before we make a purchase. Frankly that is ridiculous.
If I want to buy food I go to the supermarket and I do NOT think to myself is this meat from animals that have suffered. If I go to a store to buy a shirt I do NOT think to myself has this been made by child labour in India or prisoners in China. If I buy anything I do NOT think to myself is the manufacturer or store supporting something immoral.

I also think that the choice of boycotting is an option. We can boycott if we want to do extra good, but doesnt mean we sin if we dont.

 

[McatholicN]

I think I’m going to go pretty hungry if this really is a sin. I don’t think I’ll be able to convince my parents to buy expensive organic food for the whole family. How could I find out if animals were treated cruelly or not?

And what about the computer I type on or the clothes on my back? It seems like there must’ve been some sinful action (we can’t judge if there was actual sin, right?) in the making of them?

How can I use anything ever again?!

 

[Rascalking]

I think I’m going to go pretty hungry if this really is a sin. I don’t think I’ll be able to convince my parents to buy expensive organic food for the whole family. How could I find out if animals were treated cruelly or not?

And what about the computer I type on or the clothes on my back? It seems like there must’ve been some sinful action (we can’t judge if there was actual sin, right?) in the making of them?

How can I use anything ever again?!

Don’t go out looking for sin in things that aren’t there. What I was saying is consuming some animal products IS sinful. If a company goes out of it’s way to mistreat animals, then you probably shouldn’t eat there. If your family is forcing you, then it’s not a sin. You have no control.

If your worried that the computer/clothes and everything is sinful, seek professional help from a therapist. There is “scrupulosity” and then there is “full blown neurosis”. I am NOT saying that to insult you, so please don’t take it as such.

God gave us common sense-use that instead of worrying about what may or may not be sinful.

 

[thistle]

There is no requirement for us to do deep research on every company or store before we make a purchase. Frankly that is ridiculous.

No, it’s not ridiculous. You can go overboard with it, but it is NOT ridiculous.
Good grief, Liberal groups are past-masters at boycotting stores, banks,
companies, etc., which support or do not divest themselves from issues they find
serious.
Back during the 1980s, the “Free South Africa Movement,” which was backing both
a call for an end to (the cruel S.A. policy of) Apartheid and backing an ANC/leftwing takeover of South Africa, used every means at their disposal, including BOYCOTTS
of stores, banks, restaurants, manufacturers, etc., to force all businesses to
DIVEST from all their investments in South Africa. Regular citizens were urged to get rid of all their stocks in companies that wouldn’t quit doing business in South Africa.
And millions of people responded, and the pressure WAS PUT on the South African racist regime. That, and the fall of Communism, helped push the racist regime in Pretoria to buckle, and the rest is history.

If Catholics would do THAT with regard to companies that FUND ABORTION and promote other very sinful things, the way many Catholics participated in the boycotts to free South Africa of apartheid, a lot could conceivably change.
But things are REALLY bad now. Most large employers FORCE all new employees to sit through “Diversity Training” seminars when hired. I have no problem with the anti-racism and anti-sexism parts of the Diversity training, but the training also includes presentations on the “normality” and “goodness” of the practicing gay lifestyle, gay marriage, gay adoption, etc. This violates my right to NOT HAVE MY RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ASSAULTED BY MY EMPLOYER(S), yet, as far as I know, I and millions of other Christians who object to this Forced Indoctrination, have no legal recourse in order to put a stop to it. By the way, conservatives, these large corporations who force this immorality on their workers, are THE CHIEF beneficiaries of the Bush Tax Cuts which conservatives advocate so that these large corporations will use the extra money to
“create jobs” — which they don’t. They spend it on swill like I just described, and OUTSOURCE millions of needed American jobs OVERSEAS where they can pay the workers what, here in America, amounts to a slave-labor wage. THAT is what they are doing with those tax breaks, people. But I digress…

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

Catholics are NOT required to find out what the political or ethical policies of any supermarket, store or manufacturer are before making a purchase of any kind. You and anyone else are free to do so if you wish but the Church does not require it and nobody can condemn anyone for not doing so.
As I said in an earlier post when I want to buy something (does not matter what it is) I simply go and buy it. End of story.

 

[timeandeternity]

Yes, a certain percentage of our meat, dairy, and eggs is produced by local farms. However, the majority of these is produced by large commercial factory farms. To be completely accurate (and no, the following statistics were NOT found on some animal rights website), four companies produce 81 percent of cows, 73 percent of sheep, 57 percent of pigs and 50 percent of chickens in the U.S. In 1967, there were one million pig farms in America; as of 2002, there were *only *114,000, with 80 million pigs (out of 95 million) killed each year on such factory farms as of 2002, according to the U.S. National Pork Producers Council. According to the Worldwatch Institute, 74 percent of the world’s poultry, 43 percent of beef, and 68 percent of eggs are produced on factory farms.

MCatholicN, you can’t force your family to do anything. Present some facts to them, and see if they’re open. If so, you can visit eatwellguide.com to find local stores that sell organic food. My family actually buys a half a cow each year from a local farm. It’s way less expensive in the long run, requires less effort (you don’t have to keep running to the store to buy yet another package of ground beef), and the meat is fantastic.

Thistle: you’re right–we can’t avoid every single company that is involved, some way or another, in morally objectionable practices. However, we can do our best. For example, LDI puts out a list of companies that support PP. It requires minimal effort to purchase this list and write a letter each week, and it’s not that difficult to avoid these companies. Each year, the Human Rights Campaign publishes a list of companies that are actively involved in the homosexual agenda. All it takes is a quick google search, and you have this info at your fingertips. It may not always be possible to avoid all of these all the time, but it’s at least possible much of the time. I don’t think we need to go totally overboard and thoroughly research every single company we buy from, but I also don’t think we should have an “ignorance is bliss” type of attitude. As Catholics, we should be willing to be somewhat inconvenienced in order to set a high moral standard.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, a certain percentage of our meat, dairy, and eggs is produced by local farms. However, the majority of these is produced by large commercial factory farms. To be completely accurate (and no, the following statistics were NOT found on some animal rights website), four companies produce 81 percent of cows, 73 percent of sheep, 57 percent of pigs and 50 percent of chickens in the U.S. In 1967, there were one million pig farms in America; as of 2002, there were *only *114,000, with 80 million pigs (out of 95 million) killed each year on such factory farms as of 2002, according to the U.S. National Pork Producers Council. According to the Worldwatch Institute, 74 percent of the world’s poultry, 43 percent of beef, and 68 percent of eggs are produced on factory farms.

I would really like to see reputable sources for this, WITH distinctions made between “processing” and “producing”. It is my impression, for example, that four companies in the U.S. produce a LOT more than 50% of the chickens. But to my understanding, they don’t actually raise them except in their breeding farms, a tiny percentage of the whole. They also have some few experimental facilities. There are, around here, four poultry “integrators”; big companies that produce a very large percentage of the entire output. Not one of them actually operates the farms itself. Now and then an integrator will operate a farm momentarily if some farmer is about to go under or is sick or is harming the birds. But it’s rarely done, and the integrators hate doing it.

Same thing with beef. To my understanding, the greatest percentage of beef in this country is produced by only two companies. The largest one, IBP/Tyson does not raise a single animal, and doesn’t even operate feed lots, let alone cow/calf operations. They are fundamentally processors. So, when one says X number of companies “produce” 81% of the beef, they’re probably right in saying it, but ONLY when it comes to processing. If one simply thinks about it a little, one has to realize that to totally vertically integrate 81% of beef production, from breeding to calf to steer to final product, one would have to own 81% of the pasture land in the U.S. No meat processing company has the money to do that, nor do all in combination. Nor do they have the desire. Processors are processors and marketers. That’s what they do best. That’s why, for example, IBP/Tyson (the biggest or second biggest in the nation. depending on who you listen to) got rid of its feedout facilities and hog farms some time ago. They found that it’s a lot more efficient to buy the animals from others.

Why is that? It’s actually simple. Individuals and families that own the farms and operate them are simply better managers than are hired personnel, and care a lot more about outcomes. The big integrators, by the way, guarantee the sizeable mortgages required for extremely efficient poultry or hog production. They also guarantee a rate of return and pay the lenders direclty. If a farmer produces well, he ends up (usually in 7 years) owning millions of dollars worth of assets and an income stream he could never get otherwise.

I will agree to this extent, though. Most poultry farmers and a substantial number of hog farmers are under contract with a big “integrator”. Most cattle ranchers, however, are not. That was attempted a couple of decades ago amid a lot of hoopla and predictions of this or that. But it didn’t work out.

And just to clarify one more thing. If one considers the individual and family-owned poultry or hog farms to be “factory farms”, adding those very few company-owned farms, never are the birds or animals processed on the farms. That’s not how the industries work. Processing facilities are very expensive, are centralized and do nothing else. The birds or animals are brought from the farms to the processing facilities.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think I’m going to go pretty hungry if this really is a sin. I don’t think I’ll be able to convince my parents to buy expensive organic food for the whole family. How could I find out if animals were treated cruelly or not?

Don’t bother convincing them. You can’t possibly know how the animals were treated unless you know the farmer or rancher extraordinarily well. If you do, and if you also know the people at one of the countryside slaughterhouses every bit as well, you can pretty well know what you’re getting.

But for the most part, you are not going to get a superior product to what the big companies produce. You can, for example, insist on all grass-fed beef and, if you can trust the rancher, you will get it.

If one lives in the country and knows a number of those producers, one can pretty well know what he is getting; particularly if one raises the animal oneself. But urban dwellers would be taking their health in their hands in attempting it, and would have to do a lot more study than they’re likely to do.

One can reasonably put one’s mind to ease about “cruelty” by actually visiting farms and ranches and production facilities. Even so, “cruelty” is very much in the eye of the beholder. Killing an animal, no matter how you do it, would be considered “cruel” by some. One would have to know what an animal’s life is like from start to end and also know what animals’ lives are like in the wild in order to really know.

 

[puzzleannie]

I’ve heard that much of our food comes from factory farms that treat animals (sometimes very) cruelly. I have no intention of becoming a vegan, but since animal cruelty is a sin (right?) would eating food that is a product of this be a sinful action? I’ve seen answers on here before that say that eating at a restaurant that funds Planned Parenthood, etc. is not sinful, but wouldn’t this be different because the food is an actual product of the animal cruelty?

Thanks!

it is possible some animal food is produced in a manner that may be cruel but even if that were true, if you did not materially participate in the cruelty you would not be guilty of anything.

why not get the facts before jumping on that bandwagon? you do realize there are plenty of sources for animal foods other than factory farms? you do realize that wholesale conversion of land ideally suited for raising grazing animals for food over to the cultivation of grains also leads to ecological damage and resultant damage to the health of societies where this has happened? raising animalsin “factory farms” is not the only source of cruelty in the food chain.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Catholics are NOT required to find out what the political or ethical policies of any supermarket, store or manufacturer are before making a purchase of any kind. You and anyone else are free to do so if you wish but the Church does not require it and nobody can condemn anyone for not doing so.

Correct. To state that there is some kind of sinful equivalency between purchasing habits and the central moral doctrines of the Church is merely a subjective opinion and is not any kind of official doctrine. Individual consumers, and their affiliated groups, sometimes go to extremes in what they consider “ethical,” “moral,” or not. And some of those conclusions are based on ‘junk science’ or improperly generalized data, or even “reports.”

To be completely “pure,” one would almost have to own a self-sustainable farm and produce all one’s own food, which is not practical for the 21st century population, or at least certainly for most of the industrialized world, which has become largely non-agrarian. Mass production is virtually a necessity with the world’s population what it is.

As I said in an earlier post when I want to buy something (does not matter what it is) I simply go and buy it. End of story.

Well I don’t go that far. However, I can’t get into the minutiae of the entire ‘food-chain’ of such sellers, because probably at least one step in that chain is technically comprised to some degree of “pure” ethics or morality. Rather, I avoid purchasing from companies which I have evidence of, or which I know to practice, exploitation of humans. Thus, if I observe (have personal first-hand knowledge of) exploitation of workers within that company, I do not patronize it. That could be a local company or store (not a chain), but could also be a corporation. In addition, as far as is possible for me, I do patronize produce stores (for example) which have a more direct relationship with its providers, because that also would be in line with an affirmative view of social justice. (I agree with thistle that there is no Catholic prohibition against purchasing from grocery store chains or any such thing; I just mean that the social justice guidelines encourage support for things like “fair trade” purchasing. If the cost of that does not jeopardize the different command of making wise decisions about expenditures (!), then I am happy to oblige.)

Thus, I try to purchase from the more “direct” produce stores, but that is not always possible for me and for lots of other people, because of the hours involved and the locations, relative to one’s other responsibilities, the cost of fuel, etc.

 

[McatholicN]

Is there any flaws in these premises?

1. Patronizing company X that does morally objectionable behavior X is participating in morally objectionable behavior X (even if you did not know if company X did morally objectionable behavior since you patronized them even in doubt).
2. Participating in sin is sinful.
   Conclusion: Patronizing company X (even when unsure) is sinful.

This would apply not only to animal cruelty and eating, but a large array of other instances.

 

[Debora123]

It is sinful? Is everyone supposed to check all the places that their food comes from? Catholics can’t go to McDonald’s (or probably nearly any restaurant, for that matter)? It’s not really my choice what food I eat - my parents and school, though I don’t think I’d want to go out of my way to search for family farm products, anyway. It doesn’t really weigh down on my conscience; I’m pretty scrupulous, anyway.

I’ll really be in trouble if this is sinful.

When you go to a grocery store, make sure the meat/chicken you buy says “organic” and “cage free.” This pretty much ensures that that particular animal was not treated badly.

 

[divinefaith]

When you go to a grocery store, make sure the meat/chicken you buy says “organic” and “cage free.” This pretty much ensures that that particular animal was not treated badly.

The OP is a minor, dont know if he can afford organic food, unless he works and buys his own food or his parents negotiate grocery shopping with him

 

[Debora123]

The OP is a minor, dont know if he can afford organic food, unless he works and buys his own food or his parents negotiate grocery shopping with him

Oh really??

Haha… well then the OP needs to understand that he’s not held responsible for eating what his parents buy and set on the table for dinner.

OP, wait until you’re older and moved out. And THEN you can start worrying about buying organic meats.

…And in the mean time, please try to keep your scrupulosity under control by having weekly or biweekly therapy sessions with a counseling priest. It’s the best thing you can do at this point.

 

[Nelka]

Tip.

If you pick up a packet of bacon for example and you see a blood spot, the pig died in pain, the nerves are the blood spot. If there are no blood spots, the pig died when unconscious and felt no pain. I have seen this with my own eyes in a slaughterhouse.

The blood spot will be the size of a pin prick but is easily seen.

Now, at this point I realise that animals are slaughtered differently in America than in England but it is not too hard to find out.

Although:

Genesis 1:26 God said, ‘Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground.’

 

[Newbie2]

Animal cruelty IS sinful (I’m a vegetarian, not a vegan-big difference) and eating food from certain companies that knowingly and cruelly mistreat animals IS sinful.

Now, having said that, there is a middle ground here-it depends on how the animals are treated. Does the factory allow the animals to have some room to graze, excersize, live in a space that is decent sized, or do they just throw them in a small room, total darkness, and torture them for their brief lifespan? Do they quickly kill them, or make them suffer?

It boils down to your conscience. If you have trouble sleeping at night, or if it feels wrong, it probably is.

That begs the question as to what is “cruel” and what is not. As well, if I buy meat from Company A, knowing about their practices and I don’t think they’re cruel, and you buy meat from Company A, thinking that their practices ARE cruel, we are both doing the same thing. Yet, one of us eats with a clear conscience and one does not. Begs the question if our similar actions are both sinful or not, eh?

…Eggs Benedict? .

Only Catholics eat Eggs Benedict.

If the majority of our meat and animal products comes from factory farms, shouldn’t our default assumption be that animal cruelty was used? .

No.

There is no requirement for us to do deep research on every company or store before we make a purchase. Frankly that is ridiculous.
If I want to buy food I go to the supermarket and I do NOT think to myself is this meat from animals that have suffered. If I go to a store to buy a shirt I do NOT think to myself has this been made by child labour in India or prisoners in China. If I buy anything I do NOT think to myself is the manufacturer or store supporting something immoral.

Methinks “ridiculous” is a bit too harsh. Would you be vaccinated with a vaccine derived from fetal stem cells?

I wonder how many people who talk about “factory farms” have ever been in one.

Being cruel to animals is self-defeating. Processors want the animals to be as pristine as possible. No bruises, no cuts, no diseases, no cripples, no filth, no infections. It’s stupid to be cruel, and I don’t think many producers are either one.

Dittos.

Some veterinary treatment can seem cruel until you realize how dangerous it is to a large animal if you to try to anaesthetize one. They can only be down so long and live. And their pain thresholds are very different from ours. In the right circumstances you could hit a cow with a club and she wouldn’t notice. But a p(name removed by moderator)rick from a vaccination needle and she might jump right up in your face and smash your skull. But if you pop her twice with the flat of your hand and then push in the needle, she think’s it’s just another pop and pays no attention whatever.And, of course, cattle will fight each other establishing their pecking order with a force that would instantly kill a human being, but which seems not to bother them at all.

There are a lot of things like that. You really have to realize that we’re not them and they’re not us.

Not necessarily.

One can reasonably put one’s mind to ease about “cruelty” by actually visiting farms and ranches and production facilities. Even so, “cruelty” is very much in the eye of the beholder. Killing an animal, no matter how you do it, would be considered “cruel” by some. One would have to know what an animal’s life is like from start to end and also know what animals’ lives are like in the wild in order to really know.

Tip.

If you pick up a packet of bacon for example and you see a blood spot, the pig died in pain, the nerves are the blood spot. If there are no blood spots, the pig died when unconscious and felt no pain. I have seen this with my own eyes in a slaughterhouse.

The blood spot will be the size of a pin prick but is easily seen.

Now, at this point I realise that animals are slaughtered differently in America than in England but it is not too hard to find out.

’

No, the nerves are not in the blood spot. This is fallacy.

“Blood spots” have nothing to do with whether or not an animal died in pain. Nothing.

And yeah, I’m a veterinarian who spent a summer in veterinary school doing intestinal research on pigs in a pig slaughterhouse.

 

[JaKael02]

Catechism:

1779 It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:

My opinion:

Factory farms are an example of comparative advantage. We don’t want to witness the animal abuse, but we pay someone else to do it; as long as they keep it out of our sight/mind.

But once we come to knowledge of the consequences of our purchasing habits, we are guilty of sin.

 

[severus68]

Catechism:

1779 It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:

My opinion:

Factory farms are an example of comparative advantage. We don’t want to witness the animal abuse, but we pay someone else to do it; as long as they keep it out of our sight/mind.

But once we come to knowledge of the consequences of our purchasing habits, we are guilty of sin.

Well said.