Animal Intelligence

[Jon_S_1]

Ummm, okay. Is someone forcing you to become vegan? I’m not. If you think I did, show me where.

Why can’t the Church support veganism? None of us have a clue whether or not Christ was a vegan or not. In fact, it’s funny that you mention that, because there are some theologians that believe that He very well have been a vegan and that meat/fish eating was for the sake of His followers, and not for his own desire to do so. Kinda blows the mind, doesn’t it?

There is no evidence Christ was Vegan. That is called reading into the text.

A Jewish teacher like Jesus not participating in the Passover meal and being Cegsn contrary to everyone back then would have been mentioned.

If Christ wanted us to be Vegan he would have said so, and the church would have too.

As far as I know the church neither supports not condemns Veganism. It’s not really the church’s place to comment on such a thing that’s a harmless personal decision.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Possibly. But I believe the communion of saints teaches us that God has a unique plan for saints in heaven where we interact with each other in some way.

But God, in His omnipotence, could create a means wherein we could interact with animals also, is that not so?

Man was already created when God breathed on him. Man was created in a similar state as animals until this unique act by God.

The “breath” of God gave man his immortal soul. So how did the animals get their souls?

I meant newly created animals not resurrected.

Tsk! Tsk! :tsktsk: Backpedaling not allowed!

 

[Jon_S_1]

But God, in His omnipotence, could create a means wherein we could interact with animals also, is that not so?

The “breath” of God gave man his immortal soul. So how did the animals get their souls?

Tsk! Tsk! :tsktsk: Backpedaling not allowed!

Animals do not have eternal souls. They just have life that God gave them by speaking them into existence.

The only thing that separates us from animals is God breathing on us and creating us in his image.

I don’t know why God would have purpose for animals in heaven. They would be completely unnecessary.

Also heaven is not about “making us happy” it is about being united with God, worshiping him and joining in his plan.

 

[Jon_S_1]

If animals go to heaven then how?

Would it not have been better for us to have been born an animal so we can be with God forever instead of struggling with sin our whole lives?

Do all animals go to heaven or only herbivores?

Do snakes and spiders and “yucky” animals go to heaven or just the cute petting zoo types?

 

[NeedsMercy]

There is no evidence Christ was Vegan. That is called reading into the text.

A Jewish teacher like Jesus not participating in the Passover meal and being Cegsn contrary to everyone back then would have been mentioned.

I think you’re making my argument for me. There is no evidence either way for Jesus’ being a vegan. To not eat animal flesh or fish would have made Him stand out as a sore thumb, and take away from the teachings that He was trying to impart. So He partook in being an omnivore. Doesn’t mean He liked it.

If Christ wanted us to be Vegan he would have said so, and the church would have too.

As far as I know the church neither supports not condemns Veganism. It’s not really the church’s place to comment on such a thing that’s a harmless personal decision.

Okay, let’s count how many things that Christ didn’t mention in the NT: abortion, birth control, assisted suicide, homosexuality, masturbation…need I go on? Can you say about these things “If Christ didn’t want us to (fill in the blank), He would have said so”?

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think you’re making my argument for me. There is no evidence either way for Jesus’ being a vegan. To not eat animal flesh or fish would have made Him stand out as a sore thumb, and take away from the teachings that He was trying to impart. So He partook in being an omnivore. Doesn’t mean He liked it.

Okay, let’s count how many things that Christ didn’t mention in the NT: abortion, birth control, assisted suicide, homosexuality, masturbation…need I go on? Can you say about these things “If Christ didn’t want us to (fill in the blank), He would have said so”?

All of those things are in the Bible, perhaps not spelled out by Jesus, but clearly outplayed in the scriptures.

This of course is not to mention that the Bible talks about God commanding the use of animals for food as well as sacrifice.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Animals do not have eternal souls. They just have life that God gave them by speaking them into existence.

The only thing that separates us from animals is God breathing on us and creating us in his image.

One more time: I am not putting animals on the same plane of existence as humans. Are we good yet?

I don’t know why God would have purpose for animals in heaven. They would be completely unnecessary.

We are unnecessary to God, also. But the point here is that God loves us and wants us to be with Him. But He has love for His non-human creation also.

Also heaven is not about “making us happy” it is about being united with God, worshiping him and joining in his plan.

Here we go again. If I said that animals must go to Heaven because that is what would make me happy in the afterlife, please show me where. I say that animals have worth because they are created by the One, True God. They give glory to Him by virtue of their existence and He loves them in return. They have souls and merit living eternity with their Creator.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

You are really supporting what I’m saying!

But Number 3 is the most important part.

I spend a great deal of time contemplating the absolute goodness of God as manifested in His creation of the animals. Some may see His goodness in helping the poor, some may see His goodness in tending to the sick, some see it absolving sins. I don’t think I’m wasting my time trying to convince people that God’s love encompasses ALL of His creation and that this love does not die with the death of the animal or plant. I re-iterate Luke: God does not forget the sparrows. They are not insignificant to Him; therefore, they will not be insignificant to me. And this is why I think that it IS “worth getting worked up about”.

The goodness of God is in God Himself. It may be reflected in all other things, but He is sufficient.

And I did not say animals are insignificant to God. I said they (and us) are insignificant compared to God, which is a very different, and completely true, thing.

 

[NeedsMercy]

If animals go to heaven then how?

Would it not have been better for us to have been born an animal so we can be with God forever instead of struggling with sin our whole lives?

Do all animals go to heaven or only herbivores?

Do snakes and spiders and “yucky” animals go to heaven or just the cute petting zoo types?

Reductio ad absurdum.

 

[Jon_S_1]

One more time: I am not putting animals on the same plane of existence as humans. Are we good yet?

Your the one that keeps bringing it up ! See your third paragraph below!

We are unnecessary to God, also. But the point here is that God loves us and wants us to be with Him. But He has love for His non-human creation also.

Here we go again. If I said that animals must go to Heaven because that is what would make me happy in the afterlife, please show me where. I say that animals have worth because they are created by the One, True God. They give glory to Him by virtue of their existence and He loves them in return. They have souls and merit living eternity with their Creator.

Animals do not have Eternal Souls! You keep bringing it up!

And how do they merit eternal life exactly??

 

[Jon_S_1]

Reductio ad absurdum.

Is it though?

 

[NeedsMercy]

But Number 3 is the most important part.

The goodness of God is in God Himself. It may be reflected in all other things, but He is sufficient.

And I did not say animals are insignificant to God. I said they (and us) are insignificant compared to God, which is a very different, and completely true, thing.

Yes, God is “goodness” itself. But we do not have the Beatific Vision here on earth. We must see God reflected in all creation. I did not think that this is up for debate…

 

[NeedsMercy]

Your the one that keeps bringing it up ! See your third paragraph below!

Animals do not have Eternal Souls! You keep bringing it up!

And how do they merit eternal life exactly??

What 3rd paragraph?

Think about this. God gave us immortal souls. Suppose, just suppose, that God gave animals and plants and rocks, whatever, souls that were immortal also but not like those of humans! For all you, or anyone on earth, knows, there could be thousands, millions, of different types of souls. It is not outside of God’s power to create anything! In fact, in St. Faustina’s Diary, Jesus asks her if she would like for Him to create an entirely different world just for her!

587 Once, I suddenly saw Jesus in great majesty, and He spoke these words to me: My daughter, if you wish, I will this instant create a new world, more beautiful than this one, and you will live there for the rest of your life.

So is it too much to believe that there could be different kinds of immortal souls? And why wouldn’t animals merit eternal life? How many times in Scripture do we hear about "how all creation rightly gives Him praise’? They praise Him and give Him glory. If that’s not deserving of eternal life what is? Please open your heart and listen to the words in Ecclesiastes 3:21 “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?”

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Yes, God is “goodness” itself. But we do not have the Beatific Vision here on earth. We must see God reflected in all creation. I did not think that this is up for debate…

Indeed. I was talking about in heaven. Animals will not be necessary in heaven to be happy.

 

[Jon_S_1]

What 3rd paragraph?

Think about this. God gave us immortal souls. Suppose, just suppose, that God gave animals and plants and rocks, whatever, souls that were immortal also but not like those of humans! For all you, or anyone on earth, knows, there could be thousands, millions, of different types of souls. It is not outside of God’s power to create anything! In fact, in St. Faustina’s Diary, Jesus asks her if she would like for Him to create an entirely different world just for her!

587 Once, I suddenly saw Jesus in great majesty, and He spoke these words to me: My daughter, if you wish, I will this instant create a new world, more beautiful than this one, and you will live there for the rest of your life.

So is it too much to believe that there could be different kinds of immortal souls? And why wouldn’t animals merit eternal life? How many times in Scripture do we hear about "how all creation rightly gives Him praise’? They praise Him and give Him glory. If that’s not deserving of eternal life what is? Please open your heart and listen to the words in Ecclesiastes 3:21 “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?”

And so again ask:

What makes man unique, and if animals and rocks and plants experience the Beatific Vision, why is it not better that we were a dandelion instead if a human who needs to be redeemed and merit salvation through faith in Christ and works following such faith.

This is a serious question based on your position.

 

[NeedsMercy]

And so again ask:

What makes man unique, and if animals and rocks and plants experience the Beatific Vision, why is it not better that we were a dandelion instead if a human who needs to be redeemed and merit salvation through faith in Christ and works following such faith.

This is a serious question based on your position.

Animals and rocks and plants did not sin after they were created. Man did.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Animals and rocks and plants did not sin after they were created. Man did.

Are you sure?

Are you saying animals are incapable to sin or is just that they have chosen to obey God…every animal…

Do animals have free will?

If not again I ask, why not be an animal? Sounds like a ticket straight to heaven!

Sounds as if God cares more for animals as he created them all to go straight to heaven.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Indeed. I was talking about in heaven. Animals will not be necessary in heaven to be happy.

Please see my post #46 wherein I speak to what is unnecessary.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Are you sure?

Are you saying animals are incapable to sin or is just that they have chosen to obey God…every animal…

Am I sure that man sinned after the Creation? Yes. And according to the Church, animals and plants and rocks are not capable of sin.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Please see my post #46 wherein I speak to what is unnecessary.

Indeed, that part of my argument was to the “I won’t be happy in heaven without my dog because I love him so much” position. That position is simply false but not, it seems, what you are claiming.

Your position, so far as I understand it, is that animals must go to heaven because of their inherent value. I agree that animals have some sort of value (if not the same kind or amount as humans), but there is no reason to assume that everything that has worth goes to heaven. All humans have value, but some of us will go to hell. Ergo, value alone is not sufficient.