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NeedsMercy
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:tsktsk:
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NeedsMercy
Guest
I think you missed the entire point of that passage of the Bible; but, whatever. He ate the honeycomb and gorged on fish, okay? (I can’t believe I’m arguing about such a stupid thing!) You can cherry pick Bible passages all you want. If it’ll help you sleep at night, go ahead and think whatever you want about me. Do you like calling me wrong? Go ahead. “Grasping at straws”? Yeah, okay, whatever you say.
And now I will address the fact that “Jesus was a Jew and would not have violated the law of Moses by refusing to eat lamb at the Passover celebration. To refuse would have been considered a sin.” You are correct: Jesus was a Jew. But I think if you asked His Jewish contemporaries, they probably would have said that He wasn’t a good Jew. Jesus wasn’t much for the status quo.
Now about that lamb and Passover thing. In the book “The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ”, Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich describes the Last Supper. At the point in the meal where the lamb must be sacrificed, Jesus is given the knife. As He slits the neck of the animal, Emmerich notes that the Lord grimaced at the action. I can only speculate that Jesus was identifying with the Lamb, Who was soon to suffer for us. However, I also like to think that causing the death of one of His creatures was as distasteful to Him as it should be to us.
Oh, yeah. Could you please show me where in the Bible it says that not eating lamb at the Passover meal is a “sin”? Curiouser and curiouser…
And, btw, what if you didn’t like lamb? Would it still be a sin?
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thistle
Guest
In the first place I don’t believe the messages of Anne Emmerich which are anyway private revelations and no required belief. She said when Jesus was arrested he was thrown off a bridge by soldiers!! Yeah.Sure!I think you missed the entire point of that passage of the Bible; but, whatever. He ate the honeycomb and gorged on fish, okay? (I can’t believe I’m arguing about such a stupid thing!) You can cherry pick Bible passages all you want. If it’ll help you sleep at night, go ahead and think whatever you want about me. Do you like calling me wrong? Go ahead. “Grasping at straws”? Yeah, okay, whatever you say.
And now I will address the fact that “Jesus was a Jew and would not have violated the law of Moses by refusing to eat lamb at the Passover celebration. To refuse would have been considered a sin.” You are correct: Jesus was a Jew. But I think if you asked His Jewish contemporaries, they probably would have said that He wasn’t a good Jew. Jesus wasn’t much for the status quo.
Now about that lamb and Passover thing. In the book “The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ”, Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich describes the Last Supper. At the point in the meal where the lamb must be sacrificed, Jesus is given the knife. As He slits the neck of the animal, Emmerich notes that the Lord grimaced at the action. I can only speculate that Jesus was identifying with the Lamb, Who was soon to suffer for us. However, I also like to think that causing the death of one of His creatures was as distasteful to Him as it should be to us.
Oh, yeah. Could you please show me where in the Bible it says that not eating lamb at the Passover meal is a “sin”? Curiouser and curiouser…
And, btw, what if you didn’t like lamb? Would it still be a sin?
Second, Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and not to abolish it. Moses was at the Transfiguration to prove that.
Jesus was perfect and he would have fulfilled the law of Moses as such. He would have eaten lamb at the Passover feast.
You have absolutely nothing to support your views.
By the way, Jesus is God and he gave us the right to kill animals to eat so suggesting he would find that distasteful is nonsensical.
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NeedsMercy
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I told you that you could believe whatever you want. But why does it bother you so much to think that Jesus could be compassionate towards animals? Do you hate them so much?
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thistle
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I like animals and have a cat and dog.
I am debating whether animals go to Heaven or not when they die, and if its okay to eat, experiment on animals (NOT for cosmetics of course) for the benefit of humans.
In the case of the former, animals do not go to Heaven when they die (the Church teaches only humans are ordered to a supernatural end), and in the case of medical and scientific experiments on animals to benefit humans health wise the Church also teaches this is allowed.
I am saying I have no problem with the Church teachings and no problem with such animal experiments.
As for eating, all Catholics are free to decide if they want to eat meat or not. I love all types of meat and there is nothing better than biting into a nice juicy steak.
What I object to is anyone telling me I should not eat meat when God tells me I am allowed to eat it. God trumps everyone.
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NeedsMercy
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Let’s set the record start: I never told you that you should not eat meat. Eat meat. Eat LOTS of meat. And then eat SOME MORE meat!
Animals and plants have immortal souls. They will go to Heaven. It is not permissible to torture animals in the name of science, medicine or any other reason. If we have the option, we should all consider eating vegan, or at least vegetarian. Sport hunting is an abomination against the Lord. Jesus loved animals. All animals. I will do everything I can to get the Catholic Church to change its medieval position on the nature of animal souls; further, I am going to do everything I can to get the Catholic Church to take a firm stand for animal welfare and against animal cruelty. It’s lukewarm stance on these issues is unacceptable. I think that about covers it. :twocents:
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thistle
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Animals and plants do not have immortal souls. They have mortal souls which cease to exist when they die. The Church teaches that only humans are ordered to a supernatural end.Let’s set the record start: I never told you that you should not eat meat. Eat meat. Eat LOTS of meat. And then eat SOME MORE meat!
Animals and plants have immortal souls. They will go to Heaven. It is not permissible to torture animals in the name of science, medicine or any other reason. If we have the option, we should all consider eating vegan, or at least vegetarian. Sport hunting is an abomination against the Lord. Jesus loved animals. All animals. I will do everything I can to get the Catholic Church to change its medieval position on the nature of animal souls; further, I am going to do everything I can to get the Catholic Church to take a firm stand for animal welfare and against animal cruelty. It’s lukewarm stance on these issues is unacceptable. I think that about covers it. :twocents:
It is permissible to subject animals to medical and scientific experiments for the better health of humans. That is a Church teaching which BINDS all Catholics including you.
CCC 2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.
What I find odd is that these are not Church opinions. They are teachings and to reject them is a mortal sin.
So that I do not misunderstand what you have been talking about are you saying that you accept or reject these particular teachings?
By the way if you want an easy to read and understand explanation about how the souls of humans differ from animals and plants I recommend Theology For Beginners by F.J. Sheed.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Do you kill ants when they invade your cupboard?
What about spiders crawling across your headboard?
Termites in your walls?
Cockroaches on your kitchen counter?
What about a rattle snake in your backyard?
If you love animals and God’s creation so much that you can’t kill it then at least be consistent!
Of course we all know you mean cuddly and cute animals only .
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Animals do not have immortal souls.Let’s set the record start: I never told you that you should not eat meat. Eat meat. Eat LOTS of meat. And then eat SOME MORE meat!
Animals and plants have immortal souls. They will go to Heaven. It is not permissible to torture animals in the name of science, medicine or any other reason. If we have the option, we should all consider eating vegan, or at least vegetarian. Sport hunting is an abomination against the Lord. Jesus loved animals. All animals. I will do everything I can to get the Catholic Church to change its medieval position on the nature of animal souls; further, I am going to do everything I can to get the Catholic Church to take a firm stand for animal welfare and against animal cruelty. It’s lukewarm stance on these issues is unacceptable. I think that about covers it. :twocents:
Only humans, specially created for communion with God and by special grace given by God in his infusion of our spirit (immortal soul) are able to go to heaven.
If animals go to heaven and are comforted in the beatific vision for eternity , them better to be born a golden retriever in a suburban household than a child in the dumps of India.
How do reconcile these Words of God?
Genesis 9:3
[And God said] **Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. **And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
Genesis 1:29-30
And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. **And let them have dominion over ** the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Leviticus 11:1-47
**And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. ** Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. …
Genesis 8:20-22 ESV
Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And **when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, ** the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.”
Genesis 3:21
And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.
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Marie5890
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History has shown that the Church has at times lagged behind science because She exercises prudence.
Galileo being the prime example.
Of course animals have intelligence. Some are very intelligent (whales, dolphins and other similar water mammals) Other primates that are closely related in DNA to us, ie gorillas chimpanzees etc…
The Church hopefully has learned about about not getting engaged with too much outside the areas of faith and morals.
Science is not her strong point.
Galileo being the prime example.
Of course animals have intelligence. Some are very intelligent (whales, dolphins and other similar water mammals) Other primates that are closely related in DNA to us, ie gorillas chimpanzees etc…
The Church hopefully has learned about about not getting engaged with too much outside the areas of faith and morals.
Science is not her strong point.
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GEddie
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Nor is it her mission.
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Marie5890
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Exactly…
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Jon_S_1
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The immortality of the human spirit has nothing to do with how intelligent an animal is.
I disagree on science not being the church’s string point.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with some of the great Catholic scientists such as George Lemaitre. He came up with this little known theory called The Big Bang theory.
Science is the study of the world God created, as such science and religion go hand in hand.
You may also find some interesting reading from the Vatican Observatory website.
vaticanobservatory.org
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Marie5890
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You are confusing an individual Catholic with the Church.
George Lemaitre is not the Church nor the Magisterium.
Science is not the Church’s strong point.
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Jon_S_1
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Well if you mean the church is not primarily focused on science, then fine.You are confusing an individual Catholic with the Church.
George Lemaitre is not the Church nor the Magisterium.
Science is not the Church’s strong point.
If you mean the church is ignorant of science. No not true.
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Marie5890
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NeedsMercy
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I disagree.
I am asking for the umpteenth time: Where is it written in Church teaching that animals do not have immortal souls? If it is not in writing, on what does the Catholic Church base its teaching? If you can’t or won’t answer these questions, you may as well not post at all.
I was the one that pointed this passage out to you; however you choose to ignore the words that I had highlighted to you previously. The fact that you post this paragraph after I have already made note of it tells me 1) you are not reading my comments at all and 2) you have no idea what is going on in the food farming industry and the world of “research”. I am not bound to agree with incorrect interpretations of Church teaching.
That animals do not have immortal souls is not written anywhere in Church teaching. If it is, please point it out to me. And like I said earlier, on what does the Church base this teaching? If you cannot or will not answer these questions, you may as well not post at all. And for you to accuse me of sin is the height of impertinence.
I totally reject any teaching that says that animals and plants have no expectation of eternal life. As far as CCC 2417, I totally reject incorrect interpretations of it. Though 2417 says it’s “legitimate” to use animals for food and clothing, I am not bound in any way, shape or form to do so.
Why don’t you just quote the parts that answer my earlier questions?
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NeedsMercy
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Definition of “Reductio ad Absurdum”:
- disproof of a proposition by showing an absurdity to which it leads when carried to its logical conclusion
- the carrying of something to an absurd extreme
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NeedsMercy
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I disagree.
Jon S, I believe I told you to try coming back as a male chick in an egg producing plant. Or would you rather have been one of Michael Vick’s dogs? Perhaps a sow in a gestation crate? A circus elephant beaten with a bullhook? Which one?
I see no conflict at all. Scripture tells of God giving man food sources. Did Adam, Noah, Moses, and Aaron know about proteins, carbohydrates and fats back then? Vitamins and minerals? No. They ate what they had. They were not biochemists. They were incapable of forming a vegan diet providing all nutrients that are necessary for a healthy life. Did they have man-made alternatives to leather and fur? No. They wore what they had. I see no problems with what I believe.
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Jon_S_1
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Why is it absurd?
If one animal has an immortal soul and shouldn’t be killed than it’s true for all of them. If not where do you draw the line and why?
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