Animal self-awareness

[Neithan]

The truism that human beings are uniquely spiritual because we have free-will and self-awareness is challenged by atheists, particularly atheist zoologists.

It is contested by some scientists that certain animals - chimpanzees, dolphins etc. - exhibit self-awareness: the unique concept of identity, an ‘I’ in ‘I am.’ This evidence is cited sometimes by polemicists to show that the religious concept of a spiritual soul is nonsense;

however, I would say that human spirituality is not shown by our mere self-awareness, rather, by the very awareness of our self-awareness: a ‘meta-awareness.’ It’s not just our cognition, but our Metacognition which demonstrates our spirituality.

Does this seem accurate?

 

[Totterman]

Jesus,our Lords peace be whit You.
I can ansver only one thing witch may explain it all. My earlier dog,my beloved rottweiler Linda,died in my arms one morning in december 2005,and the fear and the fight against death made me sure that animals both have a soul aswell as are awere of them self. And the peace I could see in her eyes when she wos gone,I know she went to heaven and are waiting for me there. Many will find this stupid,and maybe even “against the rules” but she is my biggest reason why I want to go to heaven aswell,and looking at my present dog,I am sure she knows who she is,and maybe even why.
We can look at things from 360 angles,and still not know nothing,and I think we don’t know,because if we would,we would change our lifes,and realy live as the Gospels tell us to. Science might by rigth in ever so many ways,but it can never explain the Trinity,or Jesus or heaven,that is something we can believe in only by our faith. I believe that bread and wine realy turns in to Jesus flesh and blood,what else could it be.
So yes,if I beleive in that,what else do I wonder about? Nothing. And in the end fait is all that matters.

 

[Light1111]

Beautiful post, Totterman. I’ll remember you and your beloved dog in my prayers.

 

[Katholish]

The truism that human beings are uniquely spiritual because we have free-will and self-awareness is challenged by atheists, particularly atheist zoologists.

It is contested by some scientists that certain animals - chimpanzees, dolphins etc. - exhibit self-awareness: the unique concept of identity, an ‘I’ in ‘I am.’ This evidence is cited sometimes by polemicists to show that the religious concept of a spiritual soul is nonsense;

however, I would say that human spirituality is not shown by our mere self-awareness, rather, by the very awareness of our self-awareness: a ‘meta-awareness.’ It’s not just our cognition, but our Metacognition which demonstrates our spirituality.

Does this seem accurate?

The knowledge of the immateriality of the soul is derived from the possession of immaterial knowledge. Knowledge in turn is known to be immaterial in virtue of its universality. It is simple, but that is all that is needed.

Animals cannot know universals. They cannot abstract forms such as “triangle” and the relation of interior angles. Animals are capable of recognizing shapes because they have memory, but cannot separate the notion of triangularity from the matter of any particular triangular thing they perceive. Animals certainly have souls, as do all living things, but these are not immaterial souls which belong solely to intellectual beings. (Since the natural immortality of the soul is derived from its immateriality, man is naturally immortal whereas animals are not). Philosophically speaking, there is no reason that God could not “re-create” animals after the Parousia (Second Coming).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Totterman,
What you said is NOT stupid at all; I happen to share your sentiments. Some could call us cafeteria catholics for that; that’s cool with me. I am a huge animal-lover, feel they have the soul and the heart and the love and awareness you describe, they will be in the New Creation, and we should appreciate them and protect them as blessings from God.

Thanks for your post.

Jesus,our Lords peace be whit You.
I can ansver only one thing witch may explain it all. My earlier dog,my beloved rottweiler Linda,died in my arms one morning in december 2005,and the fear and the fight against death made me sure that animals both have a soul aswell as are awere of them self. And the peace I could see in her eyes when she wos gone,I know she went to heaven and are waiting for me there. Many will find this stupid,and maybe even “against the rules” but she is my biggest reason why I want to go to heaven aswell,and looking at my present dog,I am sure she knows who she is,and maybe even why.
We can look at things from 360 angles,and still not know nothing,and I think we don’t know,because if we would,we would change our lifes,and realy live as the Gospels tell us to. Science might by rigth in ever so many ways,but it can never explain the Trinity,or Jesus or heaven,that is something we can believe in only by our faith. I believe that bread and wine realy turns in to Jesus flesh and blood,what else could it be.
So yes,if I beleive in that,what else do I wonder about? Nothing. And in the end fait is all that matters.

 

[CradleCath]

Jesus,our Lords peace be whit You.

I can ansver only one thing witch may explain it all. My earlier dog,my beloved rottweiler Linda,died in my arms one morning in december 2005,and the fear and the fight against death made me sure that animals both have a soul aswell as are awere of them self. And the peace I could see in her eyes when she wos gone,I know she went to heaven and are waiting for me there. Many will find this stupid,and maybe even “against the rules” but she is my biggest reason why I want to go to heaven aswell,and looking at my present dog,I am sure she knows who she is,and maybe even why.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

The truism that human beings are uniquely spiritual because we have free-will and self-awareness is challenged by atheists, particularly atheist zoologists.

It is contested by some scientists that certain animals - chimpanzees, dolphins etc. - exhibit self-awareness: the unique concept of identity, an ‘I’ in ‘I am.’ This evidence is cited sometimes by polemicists to show that the religious concept of a spiritual soul is nonsense;

however, I would say that human spirituality is not shown by our mere self-awareness, rather, by the very awareness of our self-awareness: a ‘meta-awareness.’ It’s not just our cognition, but our Metacognition which demonstrates our spirituality.

Does this seem accurate?

I agree with you that self-awareness isn’t the criteria. But I think a definition is needed to make sense out of this. By one definition, even a computer could be “self-aware” if it “knows” things about itself. My computer can tell me its name and the part number of its CPU. That would be self-awareness by one valid definition. If the computer was aware of its own awareness of these properties, in this same sense, it wouldn’t make it any more impressive.

I think the key word in self-aware is “aware” not “self”. The distinction is what it means to be aware of something. It this awareness just a number in a computer memory, or some neurons in an animals brain, or is it actually experienced by someone? If a dog was aware of other dogs in the way that we are aware of other people, but not aware of itself as a dog, wouldn’t that be just as impressive?

 

[Light1111]

Thanks for all the beautiful contributions to this discussion. I’m a real animal lover, and am very moved by your posts!

I saw the documentary film “The Cove,” about the slaughter of dolphins in Japan – very sad story. Heartbreaking!

The film follows a dolphin animal trainer who was the head dolphin worker on the television show “Flipper.” He tells the story of how he came to become a dolphin rights activist, from his former position as their captor. He believed himself to be single-handedly responsible for the current torment of dolphins, as he developed the entertainment industry for dolphins.

What changed his life was that he believed one of his dolphins–one of the “Flippers”–committed suicide. He said that dolphins are not automatic breathers, unlike us. We breathe unconsciously, and it’s almost impossible for us to choose not to breathe. It’s beyond our control. But dolphins make a choice to take each and every breath.

He said that the dolphin was lifted a bit out of the water, pool-side, and was staring straight into his eyes. He watched the dolphin stop breathing; he said to him, it was apparent that the dolphin willfully stopped breathing. He also saw the moment when death clouded the dolphin’s eyes, and then watched as it slowly slid into the water, motionless. To his view, this dolphin willfully ended its own life, as it was so heartbroken to find itself captive. This changed his entire world view, and led him to become a dolphin rights activist.

Returning to this thread, he said that it is without doubt, in his mind, that dolphins are self-aware; capable of making choices about their own lives.

Very horrifying film. I hope we are able to shut down the Japanese dolphin trade soon.

 

[wanstronian]

The truism that human beings are uniquely spiritual because we have free-will and self-awareness is challenged by atheists, particularly atheist zoologists.

It is contested by some scientists that certain animals - chimpanzees, dolphins etc. - exhibit self-awareness: the unique concept of identity, an ‘I’ in ‘I am.’ This evidence is cited sometimes by polemicists to show that the religious concept of a spiritual soul is nonsense;

however, I would say that human spirituality is not shown by our mere self-awareness, rather, by the very awareness of our self-awareness: a ‘meta-awareness.’ It’s not just our cognition, but our Metacognition which demonstrates our spirituality.

Does this seem accurate?

By “spirituality” I presume you mean “a spiritual soul,” as mentioned in your post; and that you assume that this “soul” is separate from the physical brain?

Not that this is important actually, because no matter how you define it, you seem to be identifying a (admittedly valid) difference between our cognitive ability and that of animals… but then arbitrarily claiming that this difference is somehow an indicator of “spirituality.” You’re just creating a tautology.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Watching “Food Inc.” will definitely inform you about what’s wrong with the food/grocery industry and how animals AND the humans that deal with them in the food production system are mistreated and wronged…That’s a powerful documentary. It’s free on Youtube in 11 parts I think. It’ll change how you shop and what you eat!

Thanks for all the beautiful contributions to this discussion. I’m a real animal lover, and am very moved by your posts!

I saw the documentary film “The Cove,” about the slaughter of dolphins in Japan – very sad story. Heartbreaking!

The film follows a dolphin animal trainer who was the head dolphin worker on the television show “Flipper.” He tells the story of how he came to become a dolphin rights activist, from his former position as their captor. He believed himself to be single-handedly responsible for the current torment of dolphins, as he developed the entertainment industry for dolphins.

What changed his life was that he believed one of his dolphins–one of the “Flippers”–committed suicide. He said that dolphins are not automatic breathers, unlike us. We breathe unconsciously, and it’s almost impossible for us to choose not to breathe. It’s beyond our control. But dolphins make a choice to take each and every breath.

He said that the dolphin was lifted a bit out of the water, pool-side, and was staring straight into his eyes. He watched the dolphin stop breathing; he said to him, it was apparent that the dolphin willfully stopped breathing. He also saw the moment when death clouded the dolphin’s eyes, and then watched as it slowly slid into the water, motionless. To his view, this dolphin willfully ended its own life, as it was so heartbroken to find itself captive. This changed his entire world view, and led him to become a dolphin rights activist.

Returning to this thread, he said that it is without doubt, in his mind, that dolphins are self-aware; capable of making choices about their own lives.

Very horrifying film. I hope we are able to shut down the Japanese dolphin trade soon.

 

[tonyrey]

I agree with you, Neithan! We are clearly distinct from animals because we are morally responsible and they are not. This is because we have free will and also because we have rational insight. Even materialists who believe there is a self - and many don’t - have never defined the self satisfactorily in scientific terms. This is because we exist at a higher level than other forms of life on this planet. Yet that is not a reason for rejecting the rights of animals. They too are God’s creatures and have their place in the scheme of things. Without them we would not be here!

 

[edwest2]

What? We would not be here? The reason we are here is because God willed it.

God bless,
Ed

 

[tonyrey]

What? We would not be here? The reason we are here is because God willed it.

We are here because God wills it but that does not alter the fact that we would not be here if animals had never existed… One does not exclude the other.

 

[Neithan]

By “spirituality” I presume you mean “a spiritual soul,” as mentioned in your post; and that you assume that this “soul” is separate from the physical brain?

Not that this is important actually, because no matter how you define it, you seem to be identifying a (admittedly valid) difference between our cognitive ability and that of animals… but then arbitrarily claiming that this difference is somehow an indicator of “spirituality.” You’re just creating a tautology.

you’re right, it’s not a proof. I guess I’m just speculating whether our cognitive abilities are different in kind, or merely degree, from animals; but maybe I’m begging the question simply by searching for that distinction.

 

[wanstronian]

We are here because God wills it but that does not alter the fact that we would not be here if animals had never existed… One does not exclude the other.

That’s right - because we are animals - that has been scientifically shown to be true, the physiological and genetic evidence is conclusive. So by definition, if animals didn’t exist, the only life on this planet would be plant life.

Nevertheless, our cognitive distinction from other animals is not, objectively, sufficient reason to suspect the existence of an extra-corporeal “soul,” especially given the huge range of cognitive abilities apparent across all non-human animals. There’s no “them and us” - rather, a sliding scale, on which humans sit at the far right. There’s no evidence to suggest that we’re a “special case,” in terms of some supernatural bequest.

 

[Light1111]

Watching “Food Inc.” will definitely inform you about what’s wrong with the food/grocery industry and how animals AND the humans that deal with them in the food production system are mistreated and wronged…That’s a powerful documentary. It’s free on Youtube in 11 parts I think. It’ll change how you shop and what you eat!

Thanks for this post. I did see that documentary, and found it pretty chilling. There are a couple excellent documentaries about water you might enjoy. One is called “Blue Gold” and the other is called “Flow.” These documentaries explore the fact that water is soon to be (and has already become) “the new oil,” and multinational companies the world over are buying up our water supplies. The films caution the viewer, pointing out that this is a necessity for life and should not be traded on the free market – all require water; all need water whether they can afford it or not. Many activists fight for the 3rd World nations to be permitted to continue using their nation’s water supplies without interference from the corporations. There was an incident in Venezuela or Bolivia (sorry, my memory isn’t always so good!) where the people’s water was purchased, and even collecting rain water was punishable by law. The people rebelled and overturned the decision, and took their water back!!

 

[CradleCath]

The knowledge of the immateriality of the soul is derived from the possession of immaterial knowledge. Knowledge in turn is known to be immaterial in virtue of its universality. It is simple, but that is all that is needed.

Animals cannot know universals. They cannot abstract forms such as “triangle” and the relation of interior angles. Animals are capable of recognizing shapes because they have memory, but cannot separate the notion of triangularity from the matter of any particular triangular thing they perceive. Animals certainly have souls, as do all living things, but these are not immaterial souls which belong solely to intellectual beings. (Since the natural immortality of the soul is derived from its immateriality, man is naturally immortal whereas animals are not). Philosophically speaking, there is no reason that God could not “re-create” animals after the Parousia (Second Coming).

I was told, as a child, that animals could not “go to heaven” & I accepted that for many, many years. I don’t anymore. I believe that there are animals whose only purpose in the world is to love a human being. No, they may not have “immaterial” souls, they may not be able to know universals, but they give back to human beings what they’ve received from them. If dogs have been loved, they’ll return that love with a devotion that I’ve never seen in humans, loyalty that is beyond the imagination. I had a dog, my first Labrador Retriever…who risked his own life to save mine. We lived on the farm then & I was being attacked by a vicious animal. Without a second thought, my dog attacked him, wrestled the animal to the ground & went for his jugular vein. My Lab won the battle, but he was injured. Had it been neccessary, he would have given his life for me. Therefore, I believe that some of the higher animals, those that God put upon this earth just to love & protect us, will go to heaven. I don’t think that they’ll be asked to prove themselves as we must (since the Original Sin of mankind made this necessary), & I don’t believe that God will care what type of soul they have.

There is a great book about dogs, written by a man who writes for National Geographic. It’s called “Merle’s Door: Lessons from a Freethinking Dog.” It’s the best (& most scientific) book I’ve ever read about animals. The author’s name is Ted Kerasote.

 

[tonyrey]

We are here because God wills it but that does not alter the fact that we would not be here if animals had never existed…

I’m quite sure that you don’t treat your family and friends like animals! We are animals but we are also more than animals.

Nevertheless, our cognitive distinction from other animals is not, objectively, sufficient reason to suspect the existence of an extra-corporeal “soul,” especially given the huge range of cognitive abilities apparent across all non-human animals. There’s no “them and us” - rather, a sliding scale, on which humans sit at the far right. There’s no evidence to suggest that we’re a “special case,” in terms of some supernatural bequest.

The cognitive distinction between other animals and us **is **a sufficient reason for believing in the soul because our power of reasoning is necessary in order to understand intangible truths, distinguish and choose between good and evil, appreciate beauty, forgive our enemies, strive for justice, live at the spiritual level and be capable of unselfish love even to the extent of sacrificing our lives for those we have never met…

 

[Janet1983]

The truism that human beings are uniquely spiritual because we have free-will and self-awareness is challenged by atheists, particularly atheist zoologists.

It is contested by some scientists that certain animals - chimpanzees, dolphins etc. - exhibit self-awareness: the unique concept of identity, an ‘I’ in ‘I am.’ This evidence is cited sometimes by polemicists to show that the religious concept of a spiritual soul is nonsense;

however, I would say that human spirituality is not shown by our mere self-awareness, rather, by the very awareness of our self-awareness: a ‘meta-awareness.’ It’s not just our cognition, but our Metacognition which demonstrates our spirituality.

Does this seem accurate?

I really couldn’t say whether dogs (for example) have self-awareness. I know that some dogs are very intelligent though, but that doesn’t have to constitute self-awareness.
My step-mom used to have a dog named Dina. This dog was not allowed to go upstairs where all the bedrooms were and she knew that. One day the family was out and she sneaked upstairs and laid in one of the beds. All of a sudden she heard the vehicle turn into the driveway and she jumped up and ran down the stairs, fell (and it made a bump that could be heard outside) and then made her way to her dog bed where she laid down.
She tried to hide that she had been breaking the rules, but couldn’t hide it for long as the bump had been heard and as she was trying to cover up a limp while walking.
On another occasion she did something that she wasn’t supposed to do (poop inside the house) and she ran around with a really saddened look on her face and slightly limping… somewhere along the lines of don’t hurt me, I’m just a little hurt dog. We hadn’t even found the poop yet. It was too late to scold her anyways, so we didn’t do it. When she realized that we weren’t upset, she quit limping.
This dog knew how to read people and interact with her environment all the way up to trying to cover up her wrongdoings and trying to placate us even before we knew she had done something. She did all that, but she would also bark at herself in the mirror.

That is actually the main exercise that is used to determine whether a child has self-awareness. Put a little red dot of paint on their face and stand them in front of a mirror and ask them to clean the spot off. If they have self-awareness they will clean the spot off of their face. If they don’t they will try to clean the “child” in the mirror.

Another example of lack of self-awareness is my little dog. She is a little 7lb Havanese and she is a little princess. One day we were looking after a very playful young Pitbull (Melody) and we had to separate the two, because little Luna thought the Pit was a threat and tried to “protect” my husband from her. Not a good idea as the Pit is a lot bigger than her.
If I however take her and Spike (70lb Labrador Retriever/Staffordshire Bullterrier) for a walk and we happen to run into a little barking miniature Chihuahua (a.k.a. Foot Honk), she will pinch her tail and hide behind Spike (who is less than impressed and doesn’t care at all).
If she knew her own size she would run from the Pit and bark back at the Chihuahua.
Spike by the way always get’s that longing look on his face when I say “Lucky”. Lucky is my sister’s dog and he played with him on two weekend visits back in Germany (over a year ago)… They are buddies, so Spike misses him.

They might be intelligent, might have their own names and know them, might know their friends names and recognize them… That doesn’t however mean that they have any self-awareness.

 

[wanstronian]

I’m quite sure that you don’t treat your family and friends like animals! We are animals but we are also more than animals. [BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

I don’t treat my dog the same way I treat a spider. But they’re both animals. I treat my friends and family like human beings. Human beings are animals; just the most cognitively advanced animals.

The cognitive distinction between other animals and us **is **a sufficient reason for believing in the soul because our power of reasoning is necessary in order to understand intangible truths, distinguish and choose between good and evil, appreciate beauty, forgive our enemies, strive for justice, live at the spiritual level and be capable of unselfish love even to the extent of sacrificing our lives for those we have never met…

This is just an arbitrary distinction you are making to support your preconception. It is my suspicion that you haven’t identified the cognitive distinction and then methodically worked through a robust process to arrive at a conclusion of “soul,” you’ve started with a preconception of “soul” and then cherry-picked a cognitive distinction to support it. Your explanation (“good and evil,” “appreciate beauty” etc.) are not indicators of the existence of an extra-corporeal “soul,” it’s just a list of the cognitive deltas between ourselves and other animals. You’re just saying, “X is evidence of Y, because X is true.” I might just as easily (and just as incorrectly) say that talking to oneself is a sign of mental illness, because people talk to themselves.