Animal suffering

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Thanks for commenting I have read all the various Catholic rules on animals. I just wonder these were not rules given by God but made by the Church who also said salvery was ok.
Please enlighten us with a reference to where the RCC said “slavery was ok”.

But back to the OP:

The claim seems to be that factory farming = torture. Clearly, cruelty directed towards animals is forbidden in Catholic Theology. That begs the question as to if and if so what about factory farming is torture.

Impuning all large scale animal farming as torture goes too far. Perhaps it’s better to start with specifics about such farming techniques that the OP considers “torture”. On second thought, let’s first define “torture”.
 
This was a sarcastic comment I read on another post today, I am sure I could find plenty more if you’d really like. Vegans/Vegaterians or people who care about animals in general tend to be lumped in a liberals or as you can see here supporters of “planned parenthood”. They are treated as idiots for the most part on this website.

LIES LIES LIES!

Dump your car, buy a Prius
Go Vegan and join PETA
Don’t have children and support Planned Parenthood
Buy CFL’s
And Tax everything that walks and farts

…a message from the radical envrion-nuts
This is sadly true, sometimes. It is as if charity does not exist on threads related to animals. However, there are plenty of people here who thankfully, do know how to debate respectfully.
 
They maybe.** I know of one member who is not participating in this thread but is probably reading it, who is a member of some international organization whose goal is to prevent the suffering of some pigs while being transported in Europe, I forget what in the Middle East and the dolphins in Japan. I don’t think it is right to generalize. I am Catholic and I love animals and am very compassionate towards them. youtube.com/watch?v=x5NJowK9gn8**

"Catholic ethics has been criticized by some zoophilists because it refuses to admit that animals have rights. But it is indisputable that, when properly understood and fairly judged, Catholic doctrine — though it does not concede rights to the brute creation — denounces cruelty to animals as vigorously and as logically as do those moralists who make our duty in this respect the correlative of a right in the animals.

In order to establish a binding obligation to avoid the wanton infliction of pain on the brutes, it is not necessary to acknowledge any right inherent in them. Our duty in this respect is part of our duty towards God. From the juristic standpoint the visible world with which man comes in contact is divided into persons and non-persons. For the latter term the word “things” is usually employed. Only a person, that is, a being possessed of reason and self-control, can be the subject of rights and duties; or, to express the same idea in terms more familiar to adherents of other schools of thought, only beings who are ends in themselves, and may not be treated as mere means to the perfection of other beings, can possess rights. Rights and duties are moral ties which can exist only in a moral being, or person. Beings that may be treated simply as means to the perfection of persons can have no rights, and to this category the brute creation belongs. In the Divine plan of the universe the lower creatures are subordinated to the welfare of man.

But while these animals are, in contradistinction to persons, classed as things, it is none the less true that between them and the non-sentient world there exists a profound difference of nature which we are bound to consider in our treatment of them. The very essence of the moral law is that we respect and obey the order established by the Creator. Now, the animal is a nobler manifestation of His power and goodness than the lower forms of material existence. In imparting to the brute creation a sentient nature capable of suffering — a nature which the animal shares in common with ourselves — God placed on our dominion over them a restriction which does not exist with regard to our dominion over the non-sentient world. We are bound to act towards them in a manner conformable to their nature. We may lawfully use them for our reasonable wants and welfare, even though such employment of them necessarily inflicts pain upon them. But the wanton infliction of pain is not the satisfaction of any reasonable need, and, being an outrage against the Divinely established order, is therefore sinful. This principle, by which, at least in the abstract, we may solve the problem of the lawfulness of vivisection and other cognate questions, is tersely put by Zigliara:

The service of man is the end appointed by the Creator for brute animals. When, therefore, man, with no reasonable purpose, treats the brute cruelly he does wrong, not because he violates the right of the brute, but because his action conflicts with the order and the design of the Creator (Philosophia Moralis, 9th ed., Rome, p. 136)." More here: newadvent.org/cathen/04542a.htm
Thanks for that info. Yes it is wrong to generalise about Catholics, there is simply no shortage of that is there? The thing is, there are people who will insist that an animal is no different to a rock and that we should not be worrying about animal welfare at all when we should be worrying about crimes against humans, and that is where things start to get irrational.
 
I think it’s justified to subject a-rational beasts to these conditions when the goal of such is not in fact to subject them to these conditions, but to feed the mouths of hundreds of millions, even billions, of rational eternal beings whom God gives first priority over all other of his creations.

Would I purposefully make animals suffer with the intention of having them suffer? Of course not. But all Christians, not even just Catholics, should agree that human needs are top priority on this planet.

Amen Lord, I will subdue the Earth, as you commanded in the beginning.
 
I think it’s justified to subject a-rational beasts to these conditions when the goal of such is not in fact to subject them to these conditions, but to feed the mouths of hundreds of millions, even billions, of rational eternal beings whom God gives first priority over all other of his creations.
If this is the goal… to feed…then we should stop raising farm animals because there is more food produced in the world through plant only lifestyle than through high-protein animal based food.

“Livestock consumes 47% of the soy and 60% of the corn produced in the US.”
“In 2004, 120 million tons of food was used to feed factory farm animals.”
Source:
Gerba, Charles P., and James E. Smith, Jr. “Sources of Pathogenic Microorganisms and Their Fate during Land Application of Wastes.” Journal of Environmental Quality, 34:1 (2004) pp. 42-48.

Your comment is not in align with Pope Benedicts recent comments regarding factory farms. You come across uncharitable, non-understanding, and unsympathetic towards God’s creation.

Kindly,

James
 
If this is the goal… to feed…then we should stop raising farm animals because there is more food produced in the world through plant only lifestyle than through high-protein animal based food.

“Livestock consumes 47% of the soy and 60% of the corn produced in the US.”
“In 2004, 120 million tons of food was used to feed factory farm animals.”
Source:
Gerba, Charles P., and James E. Smith, Jr. “Sources of Pathogenic Microorganisms and Their Fate during Land Application of Wastes.” Journal of Environmental Quality, 34:1 (2004) pp. 42-48.

Your comment is not in align with Pope Benedicts recent comments regarding factory farms. You come across uncharitable, non-understanding, and unsympathetic towards God’s creation.

Kindly,

James
I agree but no one gets that Mac burger they so crave.
 
I live in rural America. As has been stated neglect and cruelty to animals equals no profit. Even this though is not why the farmers and ranchers I know take good care of there animals. It is because they truly care about ALL of God’s creatures. Many farmers and ranchers go without many things to provide good care for there animals. They are up in the middle of the night to check on cows that are calving or making sure the water and fans have not quit running due to power outages after storms. Even when they go to slaughter it is important to keep stress to a minimum so the taste of meat is not effected.
Before you assume animals on a farm are treated cruelly, go find a farmer and walk a day with him. You may be amazed how much his farm animals mean to him.

I’m sure there are some who mistreat there animals, but this is not the norm. Don’t judge all by the actions of a few.
 
I’m sure there are some who mistreat there animals, but this is not the norm. Don’t judge all by the actions of a few.
Unfortunately this is the norm, and I was talking specifically about factory farming - not about isolated farmers who raise their own cattle (though that has problems too). The paper I linked to a wealth of information about the cruelty that goes on in the factory farming system. I suggest you take a careful look.
 
I live in rural America. As has been stated neglect and cruelty to animals equals no profit. Even this though is not why the farmers and ranchers I know take good care of there animals. It is because they truly care about ALL of God’s creatures. Many farmers and ranchers go without many things to provide good care for there animals. They are up in the middle of the night to check on cows that are calving or making sure the water and fans have not quit running due to power outages after storms. Even when they go to slaughter it is important to keep stress to a minimum so the taste of meat is not effected.
Before you assume animals on a farm are treated cruelly, go find a farmer and walk a day with him. You may be amazed how much his farm animals mean to him.

I’m sure there are some who mistreat there animals, but this is not the norm. Don’t judge all by the actions of a few.
👍
 
Unfortunately this is the norm, and I was talking specifically about factory farming - not about isolated farmers who raise their own cattle (though that has problems too). The paper I linked to a wealth of information about the cruelty that goes on in the factory farming system. I suggest you take a careful look.
When I spoke of farmers being up in the middle of the night to check the fans and waterers this is in reference to factory farming. Since you did not realize this, I would assume you’ve never been to one personally. Don’t read what others say and even show in videos as the absolute truth. People can twist the truth to fit their agenda. Again, I’d suggest you see the truth for yourself by finding a farmer in your area who could show you how they live. If this is not possible for you maybe you could agree that you don’t have the whole truth.
 
When I spoke of farmers being up in the middle of the night to check the fans and waterers this is in reference to factory farming. Since you did not realize this, I would assume you’ve never been to one personally. Don’t read what others say and even show in videos as the absolute truth. People can twist the truth to fit their agenda. Again, I’d suggest you see the truth for yourself by finding a farmer in your area who could show you how they live. If this is not possible for you maybe you could agree that you don’t have the whole truth.
So your evidence of no cruelty comes from what some farmers have told you, but you would dismiss the mountains of evidence of cruelty available in the form of videos, peer-reviewed papers, well-researched reporting, and other verifiable and documented texts. The question is: which of us has the more accurate picture here? Perhaps I’m biased towards multiple corroborating sources (including video evidence), but I think I’ll take reliable, verifiable information over the opinion of people who have a financial stake in the factory farming industry.
 
So your evidence of no cruelty comes from what some farmers have told you, but you would dismiss the mountains of evidence of cruelty available in the form of videos, peer-reviewed papers, well-researched reporting, and other verifiable and documented texts. The question is: which of us has the more accurate picture here? Perhaps I’m biased towards multiple corroborating sources (including video evidence), but I think I’ll take reliable, verifiable information over the opinion of people who have a financial stake in the factory farming industry.
No. My evidence comes from what I have actually lived and seen. Once again I just ask you to find out for yourself by actually visiting a farm.
 
No. My evidence comes from what I have actually lived and seen. Once again I just ask you to find out for yourself by actually visiting a farm.
And I’m not denying that what you saw wasn’t accurate, but surely you must realize that your experiences don’t cover the larger picture of the factory farming system.
 
I appreciatate the fact that you don’t doubt my observations. Thank you. I do not realize that what I have seen is not the bigger picture though. I have been around it my whole life. I do believe that some people are cruel. Whether it be to animals or their fellow human beings. I do not think it is the norm.

My view of urban living is probably completely different from yours, (I may be wrong but I assume you do not live in a rural area). Do you think you would have a truer view than I would of urban living? Do you see the point I’m trying to make?
 
My view of urban living is probably completely different from yours, (I may be wrong but I assume you do not live in a rural area). Do you think you would have a truer view than I would of urban living? Do you see the point I’m trying to make?
I live in an urban area, and so I base what I know off of things I’ve read and seen via videos. The question here is who has the more accurate picture about factory farming practices. Perhaps my view isn’t entirely accurately, but the overwhelming evidence suggests systematic cruelty, and that evidence takes the form of numerous corroborating sources (including videos). Is it plausible that your first-hand experiences more accurately depicts the factory farming industry than (say) the various academic articles I’ve read? I don’t see how.
 
My hypothesis:

My guess would be that the church has lost a tremendous amount of manpower over the last 60 or so years.

Yes, we have a responsibility to protect animal life, but that responsibility is below our responsibility to human life. We have not been fulfilling our duty to humanity so we simply do not have the time for worrying about animals.
 
Then I guess the only thing left for me to do is to pray for God to give me wisdom to see things in the light of His Truth. I’m very sorry that you have such a bad feeling for animal agriculture and our way of life. I don’t believe I should let this issue take precedence over showing love to others so this is all I will post on this subject.

May God Bless you and yours
 
This is absurd. I did not finish reading it. Don’t have the time. You cannot equate the suffering of 6 million people in the Holocaust to the suffering of farm animals.

The author does not understand human dignity and equates humans to animals. We cannot compare a man to a dog. We have a responsibility to take care of animals and treat them well and with care, but, to compare animals to humans it’s off the top.

I love animals and I am all for protecting and caring for them, but the discussion needs to take place in a sensible context.
Why you can’t?
You are not talking about an election to presidency to say that we can’t compare the ability of a dog to a man for that position, we are talking about the ability for suffering, and to both humans and animals it’s the same.
 
My hypothesis:

My guess would be that the church has lost a tremendous amount of manpower over the last 60 or so years.

Yes, we have a responsibility to protect animal life, but that responsibility is below our responsibility to human life. We have not been fulfilling our duty to humanity so we simply do not have the time for worrying about animals.
It doesn’t require a lot of manpower to stop eating meat, something that the church could easily promote (in addition to worrying about human concerns).
 
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