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JKsoren
Guest
I agree!
- Status
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JCnMe
Guest
Jksoren…if you go back and read your posts you will see the irrational diatribe you threw out-it reminded me of a child’s tantrum-your attempt at this point to rehash what has basically been chewed and rechewed while playing the victim(?) and accusing me of…(oh mygoodness!)… blessing you-(which i did from my heart)-convinces me even more that you just like to argue…I think you and I have had this conversation once before- the scenario goes like this-I wish you God’s blessing and you act like you have been cursed…I can only surmise you feel you are unworthy because I am sincere…only His blessing and intervention can open your eyes to the pain you might have caused while disregarding the purpose of this thread to begin with- you offered no compassion for the situation and nothing of value to anyone seeking comfort after such a loss…my blessing to you could be translated in a different way…Father, forgive them for they know not what they do…
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JKsoren
Guest
With all do respect, I have never heard of Father Hardon until this week. I am sure he is a good theologian/scholar but as a student of theology at a Catholic University I have to say that his name has never come up, that I can remember.
As for your first objection, you have to realize that though Catholics are not sola scriptura, that our faith and doctrines can nevertheless never contradict scripture. Scripture is a necessary anchor for all of the church’s teachings. The CCC basically calls Sacred Scripture along with Sacred Tradition two sources in harmony that flow from the one Holy Spirit. Also, my own particular arguments have not been so much from the bible, though I found some passages that imply heavily that salvation/sanctification via grace is for humanity alone despite claims to the contrary, my arguments rather have been from Tradition and scholastic philosophy. (Truth does not contradict tuth…though I know many today do not value scholastic philosophy these days).
We are not putting a limit on God necessarily by saying that animals do not go to heaven. In the sense that you mean it, it is interesting how we all “put limits on God” that are not really “limits” at all…do you limit God when you limit him to being Love? I mean wouldn’t we also want to say that God is a “god of hate”? Or if we “limit God” by saying he is a God of Life why not say, in total contradiction to the Words of Christ, that God is a “god of death”? So by affirming any positive claim about the divine nature, we are in the typical sense “limiting God”…but the truth is that if God were any of those lesser/evil things in any sense, he wouldn’t be God!
So we have to be very careful about attempting to shut down any positive/negative affirmation concerning God and what he has revealed to us…remember Scripture is a very specific revelation, and that we have a teaching Church for a reason…because God willed for us to know and utilize in accord with our nature some very specific things about himself. This isn’t bad, but good. otherwise we wouldn’t really know God at all. Thanks to Christ now we have a way to know God intimately…because he came and shared in our human nature and died for our sins. Anyway. There you go.
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JKsoren
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JKsoren
Guest
All living things have souls. Every last one. The Church has taught this for centuries. However not all living things have an immortal/rational soul.LOL…I haven’t heard anything about flies and other insects having souls…but “praying mantis” may be working on it…
Only a person can reflect upon God, think about God, love God. Animals though endowed with a kind of intelligence do not have an intelligence that can reflect upon divine realities. Only human beings ask themselves “why?” “how?” and search for Truth in the most transcendental sense of the word. Dolphins, chimpanzees, etc while all displaying sometimes highly complex (for animals) behaviors and even having the ability for some degree of abstraction, cannot reach these immaterial human heights. And how is it that we can? Because there is something “immaterial” within us, something that is spiritual and thus immortal.
Also only human beings have a moral life that seeks to be in accord with the divine will. It would be pretty silly if we put dogs on trial for being naked in public wouldn’t it? After all, if they are spiritual animals too, have they no shame? How do they know that other dogs aren’t going to see them exposed! Also, wouldn’t it be absurd if we thought ill of a lion for killing a zebra and eating it? But notice how to kill a human being, including the unborn, is nothing more than murder! Animals do not partake in this, they only live as they were created to be.
Notice how we speak of being the best, holiest, person that we can be…hopefully a saint! but that we never say this of animals. That’s because animals already are doing all that they can and are meant to do as God created them, unlike us, they cannot transcend their particular natural condition…where as we can be divinized and we can partake in the Eucharist!
Have you ever heard of a dog, cat, llama, shark, grizzly bear, sparrow, being canonized as a saint? No, and you never will. Animals will not partake of the beatific vision.
Remember how Christ told his disciples that God cares for the birds and the flowers…but how much more immensely God loves them. This was Jesus recognizing that human beings have an exalted dignity and that God loves them in a particular and exalted way.
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JCnMe
Guest
…I did read this-and I find it amazing that you would believe this man’s perspective and opinion(and that is all it is) who proclaims himself to be an"expert"(?)-and yet you deny scripture
1John4:7-8
Dear friends,let us love one another,for Love comes from God.Everyone who Loves has been born of God and knows God.
…Whoever does not Love, does not know God,because
God is Love.
1John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the Love God has for us.
God is Love. Whoever lives in Love lives in God, and God in him.
1John4:7-8
Dear friends,let us love one another,for Love comes from God.Everyone who Loves has been born of God and knows God.
…Whoever does not Love, does not know God,because
God is Love.
1John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the Love God has for us.
God is Love. Whoever lives in Love lives in God, and God in him.
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JCnMe
Guest
…Jksoren…now you are being silly… there would be no need for souls if all but man ceased to exist upon death…the soul is the connection to God…even physics 101 will tell you that energy never dies-so if every living thing has a soul- it never dies and retains it’s connection to God…animals have no sin-and that is why they know God on a different level and are not judged as such…as many have pointed out-but you, of course ,refuse to listen- animals did not fall in Eden- man did…and whether you like it or agree with it or not-people will see their beloved animals in Heaven-Love is the connection that never dies…God is LOVE…and you don’t know God if you don’t know that…God Bless your inquiring mind-may it be open to truth when it hears it.
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JKsoren
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May I ask you a question…by any chance are you a vegetarian?
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JCnMe
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…by the same token- do you eat animal flesh because of your revulsion of animals or lack of concern? Do you abhor the salad bar because all are living things? Being a vegetarian is still using other life for personal sustenance…on the other hand God has allowed what is given for food -hopefully everyone- vegetarian or omnivore-understands the sacrifice of the life taken and prays over it…as in everything-the sin is in the intent…would I kill an animal or eat a vegetable for anything other than the necessity of food- no -and would I ever allow a beloved pet to be used in this manner?- I would protect them with my life… would you?
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Stella_Matutina
Guest
Humans don’t kill animals for the necessity of food (at least I don’t in the luxury of the USA.) I buy meat from the store because it tastes good. It’s not a necessity. I could survive on other plentiful non-animal sources of protein. I have pets but I would not die for them. I would even go far as to say I love them. But I also love ice cream and flip flops. I don’t love my pets the same way I will love my children. Man has dominion over animals. That doesn’t mean we can be cruel and abuse them but that also doesn’t mean we should love them as human beings. Doing that minimizes the unique gift we have as human beings being made in the image of God.
It’s okay to love animals- that just means you gotta love humans that much more.
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Schultzz
Guest
I believe this too. What about the birth of Christ? The King of Kings was surrounded by “beasts” when He came into this world. Pets are a gift from God for many of us. They too have souls. Are their souls immortal? I don’t know but I do believe that God has a special place for animals in Heaven, and a special grace for those who are kind to them.I believe 100% that our pets and other animals are in Heaven. Animals didn’t fall in the Garden of Eden. Man did. I believe Jesus came on earth to save humans after the fall and because animals didn’t fall He didn’t need to come to save them.
It’s hard for me to imagine Heaven without my beloved deceased dog that I grew up with in particular but also other deceased animals aswell.
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JCnMe
Guest
((((Stella)))- You sound very naive-where do you think the meat comes from that you buy in the store?-so although you personally don’t go out and kill the animal- you are taking part in its slaughter and death process-perhaps you would have more appreciation for what animals go through to feed you if you visited a slaughterhouse…even with all the abundance of packaged meat in the USA-there are still many MANY who view the killing of animals as sport and eat what they have killed…it’s slaughter for our personal enjoyment…and you obviously missed the point of my reply-all things have life- produce has life-animals have souls-they are kindred to us-they form deep friendships with us- they return a pure,unconditional and innocent love that we can only aspire too-… I agree man is different…man is the only animal that cannot assimilate into the environment without changing it or destroying it- and only humans would be so simple that they would compare the life of an animal to ice cream and flip flops-we have alot to learn…Thank God for the animals…God Bless
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JCnMe
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((((((Schultzz))))))
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Stella_Matutina
Guest
I am fully aware of where the meat comes from. That is why I mentioned it in the first place. I have caught many fish, cleaned them, cooked them, and eaten them myself. I have also shot a quail with a shotgun and eaten it. And YES- it was for sport and entertainment. I didn’t need to eat the quail to survive.
This may sound sadistic to you but I still consider myself someone who supports humane and moral treatment of animals. Had I captured the quail and tortured it for hours for the mere pleasure of causing a creature pain- I would consider that immoral and sick in the head. Animals are great. We can learn a lot from them. But the moment you start loving animals as much or more than humans- that’s where we run into problems and heresy. When Jesus asked the disciples to cast their nets and they pulled out so many fish, was Jesus wrong to encourage murder of little fishies just to prove His point that He can perform miracles? When a house cat hunts a field mouse outside and brings it to your doorstop to show you his accomplishment but does not eat it, is your cat doing something wrong?
Take your quote from above for example, I’m glad you admitted man is different, but not for the reason why. Is that the only difference you could come up with? FIrst of all any animal assimilated to a new environment changes it. Also, there are far deeper discrepencies between man and beast. When God created man, He created him in His own image and likeness. He “breathed” on man to give him life. No other creature had this distinction.
Your statement above leads me to believe that you have an anti-human-life mentality and that you respect animals more than human beings. I’m hoping for your loved ones around you that I am mistaken.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
I believe 100% that our pets and other animals are in Heaven. Animals didn’t fall in the Garden of Eden. Man did. I believe Jesus came on earth to save humans after the fall and because animals didn’t fall He didn’t need to come to save them.
It’s hard for me to imagine Heaven without my beloved deceased dog that I grew up with in particular but also other deceased animals aswell.
Would an ALL-just God give animals a free pass to heaven without any danger of going to hell and not extend the same benefit to mankind who He made in His own image and declared us to be His adopted sons and daughters?
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JCnMe
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((Stella))… again- you sound naive…there were no grocery stores when the disciples were casting nets upon the water-they didn’t have the same options as you do…and as far as you torturing quail instead of shooting it outright-you forget the third option-let it LIVE…there are still men who cast their nets upon the water to make a living and bring food to your table…there is no sin in this- sin is in the intent…sport is not necessity… a cat chasing down a mouse and not eating it and gives it to you-shows how much the cat loves you-it puts you before himself… again it is the intent- I doubt if you would return that kind of love to the animal- its obvious you don’t recognize it…God may have created us in His image- but we are far from God in our love and mercy-nor does man recognize that God made all things and we should see God in everything and cherish it…not recognizing God in the preciousness of the animals and their love for us-and only seeing God in those who are like yourself minimizes everything God is-and that alone says we have a long way to go before we “claim” to be God’s Image…in fact it shows we don’t recognize Him at all…there’s a big difference between being in God’s image - and being like God-His Love, mercy and understanding seem to be missiing in many that purport to be in His image- …those that crucified Christ were 'in His image"…but yet did not recognize His voice- their own ego, believing God would be more like them,got in the way…try not to judge someone as heretical when your own words say you don’t recognize God in anything but yourself and those who are like you…animals have souls too and but for the grace of God- you could have been that quail…God Bless
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JCnMe
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Sir Knight…animals didn’t fall from Grace-man did-… it was our free will and there were consequences…we can still get there-Christ gave us all that free pass back- our job at this point is to keep from throwing it back in His face through our stupidity and free will again…it is Love that opens the door to Heaven-it is through God’s Love that we have direction…don’t be surpised when you pass if you see many dogs and cats walking with their loved ones up that stairway to Heaven…pure love leads the way everytime
Ecclesiastes 3:19,20…says that we are no different-that we all go to the same place…
The difference of course is if we know God through His Son, His Love for us…while animals have that purity of God’s unconditional Love to share with us-we still have to make the choice to recognize it for what it is(God)…God is Love- if we know Love we know God…so quite possibly recognizing the Love in our pets is one more aspect of seeing God’s face…as Jesus promised in the Beatitudes-Blessed are the pure of Heart-for they shall see God…it would be a shame to make it to Heaven and never see God’s face…but if we can’t see it and recognize Him here- we’ll never see Him and recognize Him there…So above-so below…God Bless
Ecclesiastes 3:19,20…says that we are no different-that we all go to the same place…
The difference of course is if we know God through His Son, His Love for us…while animals have that purity of God’s unconditional Love to share with us-we still have to make the choice to recognize it for what it is(God)…God is Love- if we know Love we know God…so quite possibly recognizing the Love in our pets is one more aspect of seeing God’s face…as Jesus promised in the Beatitudes-Blessed are the pure of Heart-for they shall see God…it would be a shame to make it to Heaven and never see God’s face…but if we can’t see it and recognize Him here- we’ll never see Him and recognize Him there…So above-so below…God Bless
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Sir_Knight
Guest
What you are saying is neither biblical nor supported by church teaching.
Animals did not fall from grace because they were not put to the test in the same manner that mankind was.
Not only were we put to the test but we are tested every day of our lives. Satan and his demons are constantly looking for ways to snatch souls.
I ask again, where is the justice in giving animals a free pass to heaven without any danger of going to hell and not extending that same benefit to mankind who He made in His own image and declared us to be His adopted sons and daughters?
Jesus was talking about people – not animals. In a number of places He talks about PEOPLE entering heaven. Nowhere does the bible make reference to animals entering heaven.
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Stella_Matutina
Guest
This is a quote from one of This Rock’s Letter to the Editor replies.
Jesus didn’t tell the disciples to cast the nets because he was hungry, but rather to show the graciousness and abundance of God.
And I never said I only see God in humans and not the rest of creation. I love animals! I said that before. I even said we can learn from them. I’m also just saying that there is a hierarchy in creation and that man has dominion over animals. And I am also saying that I could not have been that quail. I am a unique, unrepeatable human being created to live eternally with God in Heaven to worship Him and live in His love forever.
Animals are creatures. Animals can be loyal and loving. But they are not persons. They cannot receive sacraments for example. You cannot feed your dog Holy Communion. If you did, he would truly be consuming the body and blood of Jesus, but he would not be “receiving communion” because there would be nothing to commune with. Living things have souls but only man has a soul created specifically for eternal communion with God.
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JCnMe
Guest
SirKnight…Everything I said is Biblical-with the exception of the possiblility of you not being surprised by seeing dogs and cats walking with their loved ones-are you saying you wouldn’t be surprised?..
…and you missed the point entirely when I referred to the Beatitudes-read it again-it is totally about PEOPLE.(sorry-but since you felt the need to “yell” it out-I assume that’s the word you have trouble hearing) animals did not need to be saved-they did not disobey God
…and as far as snatching souls- they have no power in your life unless you give it to them…fear- gives it to them
1John 4:16-18…-you cannot be made complete God’s Love if you fear such things-you choose who you focus on- choose God and His Angels :getholy: God bless
…and you missed the point entirely when I referred to the Beatitudes-read it again-it is totally about PEOPLE.(sorry-but since you felt the need to “yell” it out-I assume that’s the word you have trouble hearing) animals did not need to be saved-they did not disobey God
…and as far as snatching souls- they have no power in your life unless you give it to them…fear- gives it to them
1John 4:16-18…-you cannot be made complete God’s Love if you fear such things-you choose who you focus on- choose God and His Angels
:getholy: God bless- Status