Animals understand universal

[STT]

The evangelical call to the world is founded on the expectation of conforming the will to the supreme good. Those categorizes which are earthly will pass with the earth. The universals will not pass but will be judged in the supreme good. Five universals mentioned in the writings attributed to Plato are useful in the prudence of the mind and the justice of the will: (1) perfect knowledge/truth, (2) perfect love, (3) perfect justice/goodness, (4) perfect beauty, and (5) perfect home/being

The natural world cannot obtain the sublimity of the universal. For the natural world, would cease to be natural if it could. And the first cause, out of nothing, provided the context of the universal betwixt the natural world. That is our Catholic faith. That God made the world and called it good. Good, that it may be sublime in universality, if only by obedience to the cause that made it.

After disobedience, minds of men were darkened, yet they reached for the universal by means of idols. They were dark as was their meaning with the idols. But God brought truth to their wills by the light of truth. Animals have no part in this confusion for it does not pertain to them. To say that a lion or a chimp desires perfect truth, perfect love, perfect justice etc. is an obvious falsehood and utterly ridiculous. Those who claim these things, and build their claim are those of dark minds of whom made the idols of the past, and still to this day.

All I am saying is that animals can categorize things therefore they understand universal. Their brains of course are not as complicated as ours. Needless to say that they understand beauty, love and good being. They are knowledgeable and can judge situation too. Perfection is one of those word which they probably don’t understand but for sure they understand the difference between better, good, bad and worst.

The rest of your post about fall of man is off topic.

 

[STT]

Actually, I don’t think that’s true. Cats often eat grass to help them throw up hairballs. I believe this is true of all cats.

But what is your point anyway? Birds eat seeds and worms, horses eat hay, cows eat grass, dogs eat absolutely anything, including their own vomit. What are you proving by examining the diet of different animals?

All I am trying to say is that animal contrary to the church teaching understand universal therefore they have a soul with intellect as faculty.

 

[Bonnie]

All I am saying is that animals can categorize things therefore they understand universal. Their brains of course are not as complicated as ours. Needless to say that they understand beauty, love and good being. They are knowledgeable and can judge situation too.

If they could understand, they could learn. Very few do. I live in an area that has an abundance of deer. They do NOT learn about cars, in spite of many being injured & killed. They avoid humans that aren’t in cars because for a deer, any large animal is a predator.

As much as I would like to believe that animals experience love, I have to say there is no proof of that. It’s wishful thinking.

 

[Wesrock]

A Lion understands the difference between pray and plant. He never attack plant in order to hunt.

This is not a demonstration of understanding universals.

 

[Wesrock]

All I am saying is that animals can categorize things therefore they understand universal.

Being able to behaviorally categorize things in such a way is not “undersranding universals.” Animals are conscious beings. No moderate realist Thomist would deny that.

 

[STT]

If they could understand, they could learn. Very few do. I live in an area that has an abundance of deer. They do NOT learn about cars, in spite of many being injured & killed. They avoid humans that aren’t in cars because for a deer, any large animal is a predator.

This is one of many examples which shows that animal can learn, use tools to solve a problem.

As much as I would like to believe that animals experience love, I have to say there is no proof of that. It’s wishful thinking.

How do you describe this?

 

[STT]

This is not a demonstration of understanding universals.

What is it?

 

[STT]

Being able to behaviorally categorize things in such a way is not “undersranding universals.” Animals are conscious beings. No moderate realist Thomist would deny that.

Their action is not merely behavioral. They can solve problems which means that they can reason and understand universal. Please check this video to see that a craw is able to use tools, which requires the ability to create and imagine and reason the idea of using tools. They of course understand universal otherwise they could not reason.

 

[Bonnie]

This is one of many examples which shows that animal can learn, use tools to solve a problem.

How do you describe this?

I’m unable to watch you tubes.

 

[animalis]

All I am trying to say is that animal contrary to the church teaching understand universal therefore they have a soul with intellect as faculty.

As far as this forum allows, I appreciate your scrutiny of my post. You said I was off topic. But perhaps take a second look. I agree with Wesrock’s observation of your apparent display of universals. I would say, if you are in need of understanding, humble people seek this often - then meet it with more study on what makes a thing universal.

As for my somewhat lengthy post, in a concise way, I showed the inadequacy of man to obtain the life ordered to the universal truths. “Two orders of reality that too frequently tend to be placed in opposition as though they were antithetical: the search for truth, and the certainty of already knowing the fount of truth.” (Pope St. John Paul II, Ex corde ecclesia, 1) The man is renewed in light of truth to the certainty of the source, and thus the universal desire is met. Yet the man in his framework has to search. Animals do not do this. Please, I beg your pardon, but all that I said was for your benefit. You have the potential to increase your wisdom, and all I have written was to edify that potential.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

All I am trying to say is that animal contrary to the church teaching understand universal therefore they have a soul with intellect as faculty.

How you draw this conclusion from their diets is beyond me!!!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Their action is not merely behavioral. They can solve problems which means that they can reason and understand universal. Please check this video to see that a craw is able to use tools, which requires the ability to create and imagine and reason the idea of using tools. They of course understand universal otherwise they could not reason.

I know that you mean a crow, not a craw! Yes crows are one of the smartest animals. But I don’t think they understand universals. How many humans understand universals?

 

[MPat]

A Lion understands the difference between pray and plant. He never attack plant in order to hunt.

This is not a demonstration of understanding universals.

What is it?

It is a demonstration that animals are able to simulate understanding of universals to some extent.

It does not prove that a lion cannot just use a set of rules that depend on accidents. For example, “if we have a spot that has four ‘columns’ below it and moves fast, eat it”, “if we have a spot that has one ‘column’ below it and does not move fast, do not eat it”.

We can approximate finding such rules with an artificial neural network (or some other tool of “computational intelligence”). And ANNs do not understand anything.

On the other hand, the extent to which animals are capable to simulate understanding of universals (for example, horses or dogs that can simulate understanding of arithmetic by noticing subtle changes of behaviour of humans) is worthy of admiration (would we be able to do anywhere as well without actually understanding universals?). And a good reason to praise God who created them.

How do you describe this?

Perhaps you would have made a better case presenting a video with dog’s reaction to its master’s return or something…

Anyway, perhaps in such case we could say that the word “loves” in sentences “Dog loves its master.” and “Husband loves his wife.” is used not univocally and not equivocally, but analogously.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Their action is not merely behavioral. They can solve problems which means that they can reason and understand universal. Please check this video to see that a craw is able to use tools, which requires the ability to create and imagine and reason the idea of using tools. They of course understand universal otherwise they could not reason.

Animals utilise what they need to survive, function, find food water shelter.
Look at a kelpie. Its an Australian sheep/ cattle herding dog. So what does it do?
At first glance- round up sheep?

Why does it do this?
Kelpies/ dogs are prey animals-carnivores. They work in a pack- either with other dogs , or people.
What does the dog do while rounding up sheep?

1. Utilises its prey drive . What’s that? A process - hunt for food (prey) , gather up ( chase) that food working in balance with its pack, the kelpies , any dog, if undisciplined, working alone, or not listening will take this hunt and chase to a bloody end- kill the prey.

We teach them to bring the prey to us ( hoping we will kill it). Yes we reward the dog.

Look at pigs - everyone complains how they destroy. What are they doing in reality? Using a tool- an amazing hard snout to dig up ground, find underground food, dig up holes they can make into pools for their skin.

Pigs are the 4th most intelligent animal. Primates - dolphins- can’t remember this one but its not a dog- then pigs.
I can teach a pig to sit in 5 mins, teach it once, it remembers. They have the intelligence and emotional response of a 4yo.

It takes longer, with more reps to teach a kelpie to sit. It takes about 5 min to start kelpie on sheep. Then about 12 mths to form a good worker.

So once a kelpie is working we want it to think for itself, to solve problems in order to bring a mob of sheep in. We want to send it off on its own to find and bring sheep home to us. Kelpies are extremely independent. We breed that trait into them.

Look at another dog breed- the Belgian Shepherd. Its used in the military and in law enforcement. A Belgian shepherd brought down that guy who headed Al Queda. They jump out of helicopters with their handlers, they seek bombs, they attack the bad guy, they will fly through car windows, jump out of planes, crawl through swamps if asked. How do you get a dog to do this?
A Belgian Shepherd is an independent thinker too. Its extremely high energy, pretty unstoppable dog if bred and trained right. And these qualities are bred into it. Its also the breed that has been least changed, transformed over the years. Basically because it’s too much dog as a pet dog. Its a true working dog.

None of this validates your original premise.

Educate yourself on prey drive. And please don’t quote inaccurate and invalid studies like the wolf one.

I can guarantee you will think a kelpie can count. Doesn’t leave one sheep!

A horse can be conditioned by behavioural training to simulate ‘counting’. That’s not what it’s doing though, not what it’s responding too.
A belfgian shepherd is just ecstatic to respond to anything it’s handler wants. 5 crooks need catching? How does it count them - by scent . It smells differing scents. Follows them all to its reward of what it sees as a serious duty- guarding its person. Yes they are trained to kill in the military. What’s that though? Just the final step in the Prey Drive behaviour. Nothing more.

They don’t say I will kill this bad person because he is bad. They say me and my handler are going hunting! I got this , hunt chase kill . Next!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

It is a demonstration that animals are able to simulate understanding of universals to some extent.

It does not prove that a lion cannot just use a set of rules that depend on accidents. For example, “if we have a spot that has four ‘columns’ below it and moves fast, eat it”, “if we have a spot that has one ‘column’ below it and does not move fast, do not eat it”.

We can approximate finding such rules with an artificial neural network (or some other tool of “computational intelligence”). And ANNs do not understand anything.

On the other hand, the extent to which animals are capable to simulate understanding of universals (for example, horses or dogs that can simulate understanding of arithmetic by noticing subtle changes of behaviour of humans) is worthy of admiration (would we be able to do anywhere as well without actually understanding universals?). And a good reason to praise God who created them.

Perhaps you would have made a better case presenting a video with dog’s reaction to its master’s return or something…

Anyway, perhaps in such case we could say that the word “loves” in sentences “Dog loves its master.” and “Husband loves his wife.” is used not univocally and not equivocally, but analogously.

Yes or a dog given a sausage - dogs love food!!

 

[friardchips]

That is not correct. Please read this article.

Not all part of their behavior is based on instinct.

I agree with your premise that animals are intelligent and understand “universal” but in a more natural way.

The arrogance of man and the scientific theories of the secular world would have even human beings behave according to predictable patterns of behaviour i.e:- instinct alone, if they could get away with it.

While we are masters of the earth, we are to treat the earth relationally.

St. Thomas Aquinas said that the soul of an animal has two aspects compared to the three of a human being.

The first is vegetative - the same as plants and trees etc…and the second is emotional intelligence. This is not to be underestimated. Animals are very sensitive creatures. Most if not all are capable of living tamely alongside humans. Horses are known to have a memory whereby all horses have some innate recollection of being mistreated by humanity i.e:- in wars, and other ways. Nature is innately aware.

The universal understanding of animals comes with sensing/knowing that they are part of creation in a unified way but not to the point of questioning their own existence.

They can be very clever i.e- youtube.com/watch?v=ym1N3WZYk4w

(I saw the original video showing the goose go and peck on the car window).

Animals love but don’t have reason to understand love. They are just loving. They feel love. The sad thing is, is that they all, innately, probably expect all humans to be loving back.

They seem connected in some way but without being able to question why.

Animals enjoy life. And they communicate and express themselves in emotionally intelligent and sensitive ways.

They would probably be aware of the supernatural world without understanding it. Living at a higher frequency in some respects. Naturally ‘in tune’ on a universal scale moreso than most humans.

They do have their own characteristics.

 

[Wesrock]

Their action is not merely behavioral. They can solve problems which means that they can reason and understand universal. Please check this video to see that a craw is able to use tools, which requires the ability to create and imagine and reason the idea of using tools. They of course understand universal otherwise they could not reason.

That is not understanding universals. Imagination is a material function. A dog hears keys jingle on the lock and perhaps has a mental image of his owner coming through the door, or smells food and can imagine the taste. Creative actions in puzzle solving are perfectly possible. Dogs, cats, crows, have demonstrated no capacity for language, the ability to really know concepts in a universal sense. Certainly they can make associations with sensory cues, perhaps imagine appropriate responses, rewards, punishments… expectations, but that does not mean they truly understand the what of a thing or a concept in itself. And until they display such evidence by using language, composing sonnets and music, writing stories with themes, or engaging in philosophical/scientific/ethical debates, there’s no reason to claim they understand universals.

 

[STT]

I’m unable to watch you tubes.

. Well the first video shows how a crow uses tools and solve multiple puzzle to reach to food. The second video is about how animal love each other.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

. Well the first video shows how a crow uses tools and solve multiple puzzle to reach to food. The second video is about how animal love each other.

What is your definition of “understanding universals”? Perhaps that’s what I am not understanding.

 

[STT]

As far as this forum allows, I appreciate your scrutiny of my post. You said I was off topic. But perhaps take a second look. I agree with Wesrock’s observation of your apparent display of universals. I would say, if you are in need of understanding, humble people seek this often - then meet it with more study on what makes a thing universal.

I meant that your post regarded to fall of man is off topic. I am also open to understand more.

As for my somewhat lengthy post, in a concise way, I showed the inadequacy of man to obtain the life ordered to the universal truths. “Two orders of reality that too frequently tend to be placed in opposition as though they were antithetical: the search for truth, and the certainty of already knowing the fount of truth.” (Pope St. John Paul II, Ex corde ecclesia, 1) The man is renewed in light of truth to the certainty of the source, and thus the universal desire is met. Yet the man in his framework has to search. Animals do not do this. Please, I beg your pardon, but all that I said was for your benefit. You have the potential to increase your wisdom, and all I have written was to edify that potential.

In metaphysics, a universal is what particular things have in common, namely characteristics or qualities. Like dogs, cats, etc which each belong to same category. I of course think that animal do not seek truth as we do. All I am saying is that they are capable of solving problem, making reason, distinguishing things, categorizing things, etc. I supported my claim by several videos and scientific evidences. For example please look at the this video to see how a crow solve a complex puzzle. No need to say that the crow learn by itself since we could not make verbal communication with him.