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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Do you have any interaction with animals?I thought about it.
Simple task like chasing food has a lot to tell us. They have an idea of distance, speed (both value and direction) how to get close to prey without being observed, etc. All these tasks require imagination and solving problem. Animal are not simple machine which just function.
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STT
Guest
They are able to create abstract idea about using tools. They need to do this first in order to use tools.What sort of abstract ideas does an animal form?
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STT
Guest
Yes. A little.Do you have any interaction with animals?
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
A tool is not an abstract idea.They are able to create abstract idea about using tools. They need to do this first in order to use tools.
Abstract ideas are nonmaterial concepts that are detached from our human senses; they cannot be felt, heard, seen, touched, tasted, smelled, and yet they are significant aspects of human cognition and human culture. Examples include the ideas of love, democracy, freedom, history, government, and even the idea of an idea or of the mind itself. Because these concepts are disembodied from the empirical world, we can only test them indirectly.
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friardchips
Guest
Sorry, I missed this response to my post.What is the third aspect that we don’t share with animal?
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a1.htm
*‘1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul,5 the human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake."6 From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.’
‘1705 By virtue of his soul and his spiritual powers of intellect and will, man is endowed with freedom, an "outstanding manifestation of the divine image.*"8’
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm
*'I. THE NATURAL MORAL LAW
1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.5
1955 The “divine and natural” law6 shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one’s equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called “natural,” not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:
Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring.7 The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.8’*
Catechism reference: ‘1705 By virtue of his soul and his spiritual powers of intellect and will,’ would possibly be more accurately written as: ‘By virtue of his soul with its spiritual powers of intellect and will…’ as this ties in better with '*‘1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul,…’
If so, the third aspect to the soul seems to be the Intellect that allows higher reasoning, and a will which is capable of choosing the moral good, and this combination is the spiritual and immortal aspect to the soul made in His image, and is in direct connection with God having created within us the Natural Moral Law in order to use these spiritual and immortal faculties.*
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STT
Guest
I didn’t say so. I said discovering how to use a tool is an abstract idea.A tool is not an abstract idea…
S
STT
Guest
Sorry, I missed this response to my post.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a1.htm
'1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul,5 the human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake."6 From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.’
‘1705 By virtue of his soul and his spiritual powers of intellect and will, man is endowed with freedom, an "outstanding manifestation of the divine image."8’
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm
*'I. THE NATURAL MORAL LAW
1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him* to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.5
1955 The “divine and natural” law6 shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one’s equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called “natural,” not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:
Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring.7 The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.8’
Catechism reference: '1705 By virtue of his soul and his spiritual powers of intellect and will,’ would possibly be more accurately written as: ‘By virtue of his soul with its spiritual powers of intellect and will…’ as this ties in better with ‘'1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul,…’
If so, the third aspect to the soul seems to be the Intellect that allows higher reasoning, and a will which is capable of choosing the moral good, and this combination is the spiritual and immortal aspect to the soul made in His image, and is in direct connection with God having created within us the Natural Moral Law in order to use these spiritual and immortal faculties.
Thank you.
As far as I can see animal also have intellect and will. I have problem with soul since it leads to mind-body problem.
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Wesrock
Guest
None of this indicates understanding universals.I agree with what you stated but my initial argument was about universal rather than solving problem. Animal don’t eat tools instead they use it to get food. This means that they are able to distinguish between food and tools therefore they understand universal.
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STT
Guest
Do you need reason when you solve a problem? Yes. Do you need imagination and creativity to make a mental concept which is related to using tools? They are able to consider tool as an abstract concept like tool in their mind. They don’t mix this concept with other things. This means that they understand universal.None of this indicates understanding universals.
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Wesrock
Guest
Imagination and creativity is not the same as understanding universals. No Thomist, for example, would deny that animals have imagination.Do you need reason when you solve a problem? Yes. Do you need imagination and creativity to make a mental concept which is related to using tools? They are able to consider tool as an abstract concept like tool in their mind. They don’t mix this concept with other things. This means that they understand universal.
To imagine that “this long narrow thing” is not edible doesn’t require understanding universals. To imagine and put together that “this long narrow thing” placed in “dark hole” often results in “things that taste good” doesn’t demonstrate that they understand tools as such as some type of separate concept than the specific things they’ve encountered. A creature might recognize the color white, they might remember multiple things as being white, they might have associations with the color white, but it doesn’t mean they contemplate whiteness in itself and are ready to go all Herman Melville about the color. And this whole scenario I’ve described with language and words anyway.
You’re anthropomorphizing animal behavior. To believe they can understand universals as such should mean we have evidence of the type of anstract consideration of these universals, language, etc…
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Wesrock
Guest
Here’s a couple of blog posts by Thomist and Prof. Edward Feser on the topic.
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/04/animal-souls-part-i.html?m=1
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/08/animals-are-conscious-in-other-news-sky.html?m=1
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/04/animal-souls-part-i.html?m=1
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/08/animals-are-conscious-in-other-news-sky.html?m=1
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STT
Guest
A lion for example at least could categorize between prey and non prey, family and enemy, kid and adult etc.Imagination and creativity is not the same as understanding universals. No Thomist, for example, would deny that animals have imagination.
What I am saying is that you cannot reason without understanding universal. Treating family good and enemy bad. They understand these things.To imagine that “this long narrow thing” is not edible doesn’t require understanding universals. To imagine and put together that “this long narrow thing” placed in “dark hole” often results in “things that taste good” doesn’t demonstrate that they understand tools as such as some type of separate concept than the specific things they’ve encountered. A creature might recognize the color white, they might remember multiple things as being white, they might have associations with the color white, but it doesn’t mean they contemplate whiteness in itself and are ready to go all Herman Melville about the color. And this whole scenario I’ve described with language and words anyway.
You’re anthropomorphizing animal behavior. To believe they can understand universals as such should mean we have evidence of the type of anstract consideration of these universals, language, etc…
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STT
Guest
Thanks for the articles. I will read them later.Here’s a couple of blog posts by Thomist and Prof. Edward Feser on the topic.
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/04/animal-souls-part-i.html?m=1
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/08/animals-are-conscious-in-other-news-sky.html?m=1
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Wesrock
Guest
It doesn’t mean they understand the concept of family as such. Or prey. Etc…A lion for example at least could categorize between prey and non prey, family and enemy, kid and adult etc.
What I am saying is that you cannot reason without understanding universal. Treating family good and enemy bad. They understand these things.
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STT
Guest
What is the use of brain if you don’t understand the subject matter? Animals are not unconscious machine.It doesn’t mean they understand the concept of family as such. Or prey. Etc…
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friardchips
Guest
What is the use of brain if you don’t understand the subject matter? Animals are not unconscious machine.
Thank you.
As far as I can see animal also have intellect and will.
Animals have memory, instinct, and emotions, to aid them in solving problems. Not Reason (Intellect) and Will.Do you need reason when you solve a problem? Yes. Do you need imagination and creativity to make a mental concept which is related to using tools? They are able to consider tool as an abstract concept like tool in their mind. They don’t mix this concept with other things. This means that they understand universal.
Reason is the ability to understand the meaning behind why, and not just perceive the active-cause of how, something is effectively and consequentially good or bad; to grow in conscience of the moral good.
The Will, is the ability to choose and act from one’s reasoned choices, toward a moral end.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a4.htm
‘1751 The object chosen is a good toward which the will deliberately directs itself. It is the matter of a human act. The object chosen morally specifies the act of the will, insofar as reason recognizes and judges it to be or not to be in conformity with the true good. Objective norms of morality express the rational order of good and evil, attested to by conscience.’
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
It is instinct. God gave animals instinct, humans have developed minds. Does a lion understand government, religion, capitalism, etc.? No he does not. He knows how to get food, reproduce, defend against enemies and protect it’s pride. That is NOT abstract thinking. As for the crow, he has learned that a tool will work to get food. That is practical thinking, not abstract thinking. You are way off base on your definition of understanding universals.A lion for example at least could categorize between prey and non prey, family and enemy, kid and adult etc.
What I am saying is that you cannot reason without understanding universal. Treating family good and enemy bad. They understand these things.
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friardchips
Guest
Just to answer the same post as the previous poster but the second part instead:Treating family good and enemy bad. They understand these things.
No, animals do not understand these things. They feel these things. Animals can see how one thing affects something else and whether it is an effect that produces a nice feeling or not, and it can also remember the same of past instances, and build a pattern of instances, but it cannot understand the moral good in the way humans can. It can, as the previous poster just said, instinctively feel that something is good or bad, and be able to tell by its natural emotions, but this is different to a human being, who is able to reason and make a meaningful choice based on something more than a feeling.
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friardchips
Guest
In terms of creativity. Animals appear to have a creative soul. Take the example of cats, which always seem to do something unexpected. Yet, they are not playful in the reasoned way, that humans play. Creation itself is Creation-made-good; it is made delightfully and therefore everything in creation delights. Animals naturally take delight in the things around them because they are God’s creatures. But the delight which an animal experiences in its existence is not a reasoned delight whereby the animal can understand its own delight. It can know what the event or cause is, the action or object, that causes the feeling, but it cannot explain why, or find the meaning behind it.
So the next question might be: if all of creation is to delight then have we not common ground. Yes, as explained, on the vegetative and emotional level. But not anything above that. However, humans souls are still different, because we are not made of three souls, two of which have the same aspects as animals. We each have a unique soul different to that of animals. So instincts, memory, and feelings are across the board. Yet our ability to reason and to make and act upon reasoned choices deepens our sensitivity to far beyond that of any animal. Or can do. If we make the right choices!
So the next question might be: if all of creation is to delight then have we not common ground. Yes, as explained, on the vegetative and emotional level. But not anything above that. However, humans souls are still different, because we are not made of three souls, two of which have the same aspects as animals. We each have a unique soul different to that of animals. So instincts, memory, and feelings are across the board. Yet our ability to reason and to make and act upon reasoned choices deepens our sensitivity to far beyond that of any animal. Or can do. If we make the right choices!
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