Animals You Eat: Bad Meat!

[That_one_guy]

Bird-flu/Global Warming/Factory Farming
posted by wordster on 09 Feb 2007 at 11:54 am

According to the world’s scientific authorities, factory-farms like Bernard Matthews are the main culprits in bird-flu (not wild birds) and also a major villain in global warming (more than autos and transport).
medicalnewstoday.com/youropinions.php?opinionid=13996

 

[Abbadon]

No.At least not for me, anyway. You see, I’m pro life.
I want a sustainable planet with clean air and clean water. Food that is untainted and abundant enough for everybody. If and/when the pro life movement is victorious, then we are going to need these things for or children and our grand children, etc so on and such…

What do you mean by life? define life. Because for me plants fit under my definition of life, as do bacteria and viruses (kind of).

Right now we are using up and polluting our resources at such a rate that in theory we could be out of everything within a few generations.

Polluting yes, running out no. Think about it where are all the resources going? Lets consider copper possibly in the future to become one of the most valuable metals. We are using copper at an exponential rate. However it is stil available for us to use it just may require more energy to extract or be more difficult to locate. Ideally we start collecting and maintaining required metals for recycling when it becomes cost effective. But we will never “run out” of anything.

Of course, I also believe that the amount of food that is wasted feeding crop animals could feed so many more humans than cows can. I am sure you will question this so I am on top of my resources to be ready when you do.

Nope I completely agree with you plants are far more sustainable that animals, for the most part. Also farming converts alot of CO2 into sugars which is great, where as animals if anything produce alot more greenhouse gasses.

However I think even animals can be harvested for meat sustainably. I was reading something about in Australia the push to eat kangaroo and ostrich meat, because of the ratio of feed to meat produced is something insanely low, like 1/50th of cattle. Of course cattle farmers are not happy.

Also I will continue to bring this up, because I love it and think it is the future. If we are directly supplying muscle cells with the nutrients they require it will be insanely efficient as there is no need of all the energy required to power energy intensive things like brain and bone growth and digestion etc… Everything that an animal requires to power to grow.

ps-did I mention I don’t care if you eat meat?

And I don’t care that your a vegetarian. But I am intrested in why.

So for you it’s more a question of what is most sustainable then?

 

[Abbadon]

in that case you’d be talking about plants

So that is a roughly a yes then? Also plant death is not instant, you eat fresh vegetables while they are still alive…

 

[That_one_guy]

What do you mean by life? define life. Because for me plants fit under my definition of life, as do bacteria and viruses (kind of).

You are bored aren’t you. You know what I mean.

.
Nope I completely agree with you.

Well, you’re no fun
Just kidding.

And I don’t care that your a vegetarian. But I am intrested in why.

So for you it’s more a question of what is most sustainable then?

Yes.And no, not entirely. It covers a number of topics. I don’t personally like the idea of having to kill an animal for food. But, I understand it. I was raised an omnivore. I’ve hunted white tail, javelina, dove , quail, duck; raised and slaughtered my own chickens; used to east uncooked hotdogs straight out of the package,… with mustard.I loved them to death. My health has improved tremendously. I eat better. I have been forced to educate myself on nutrition, and I am pleased at what I have found. I am probably about 160# at 5’11". I used to be 175#. With a slender frame it looks disproportional to be heavier than I am now.
There are a lot of benefits. But, none of the issues which concern me are about whether God wants us to eat or not eat meat. I will admit, however,(much to my embarrassment) that I went through a short phase of thinking that eating meat was somehow demonic in origin. But, that didn’t last long.

 

[cathybramble]

So that is a roughly a yes then? Also plant death is not instant, you eat fresh vegetables while they are still alive…

well… if you let an animal know you want to kill it, it will generally try to get away. we generally consume prey animals, and they have defense/flight mechanisms to help them survive. this indicates to me that it prefers to live rather than die. plants just let you walk right up and pick them. this indicates to me that they don’t have any serious objection to being eaten. some plants are poisonous, so you don’t eat them, some have thorns or whatever but in any case the plants don’t bolt when they see you coming.

and from a botanists perspective, it makes sense. if you eat a plant, you enhance its environment when the waste comes out - and if you eat a seeded fruit, you are actually helping the plant reproduce by taking the fruit from where the plant left it, consuming it, walking around, and excreting the seed in a ready-made pile of fertilizer in some other location. granted, most seeds won’t grow in city sewers, but there is no doubt of God’s glory in His designs - it is completely symbiotic and harmonious. no screaming, no blood, no orphaned offspring that will die in a nest somewhere now that we’ve eating its mother.

carnivores in the wild do serve a purpose in culling herds - removing sick and old. but when humans hunt animals, they generally go after the young, healthy animals. only in very limited cases is this type of culling beneficial to the herd. of course it is not healthy to be eating sick animals, which is one thing that makes me believe that this relationship is a disordered one. if God really meant for us to do this, it would be of benefit to His creatures as well as to humans - the kind of symbiotic relationship that humans have with plants. but of course this is my opinion, based on what i know about wildlife population models and plant life. i still do believe that instantaneous, painless killing of an animal might not be the best thing for the environment or the herd.

so to me, if i don’t have to kill or harm an animal to satisfy my appetite or nutritional needs… why would i do it? God has a purpose for all His creation - that purpose doesn’t have to be all about me - my comfort, my tastebuds, my wants, or my vanity.

 

[Abbadon]

You are bored aren’t you. You know what I mean.

Nope I’m absolutely serious. You have to define what you mean by life, because most people have differing definitions of what they mean when they say that. I just want to know what your specific definition is.

Well, you’re no fun
Just kidding.

Yes.And no, not entirely. It covers a number of topics. I don’t personally like the idea of having to kill an animal for food. But, I understand it. I was raised an omnivore. I’ve hunted white tail, javelina, dove , quail, duck; raised and slaughtered my own chickens; used to east uncooked hotdogs straight out of the package,… with mustard.I loved them to death. My health has improved tremendously. I eat better. I have been forced to educate myself on nutrition, and I am pleased at what I have found. I am probably about 160# at 5’11". I used to be 175#. With a slender frame it looks disproportional to be heavier than I am now.
There are a lot of benefits. But, none of the issues which concern me are about whether God wants us to eat or not eat meat. I will admit, however,(much to my embarrassment) that I went through a short phase of thinking that eating meat was somehow demonic in origin. But, that didn’t last long.

Uncoocked hotdogs… and out of packagin… eagh… gross… To death is the right use of term there…

Well since I am unconvinced that any sort of gods exist I would not put that into the realm of my ehtical decision making. I would have to figure out which god before I make the next step of working out it;s morality.

But from memory the biblical god himself enjoys the smell of sacrificed animals on the alter if i recall reading that correctly. However he did not seem to very much like the pig.

Aside from that I’m sure you would understand that not everyone would have issues about killing animals for food as you would.
Personally the sustainable argument is a very good one for at least reducing the quantity of ones consumption of meat.

 

[Abbadon]

well… if you let an animal know you want to kill it, it will generally try to get away. we generally consume prey animals, and they have defense/flight mechanisms to help them survive. this indicates to me that it prefers to live rather than die. plants just let you walk right up and pick them. this indicates to me that they don’t have any serious objection to being eaten. some plants are poisonous, so you don’t eat them, some have thorns or whatever but in any case the plants don’t bolt when they see you coming.

and from a botanists perspective, it makes sense. if you eat a plant, you enhance its environment when the waste comes out - and if you eat a seeded fruit, you are actually helping the plant reproduce by taking the fruit from where the plant left it, consuming it, walking around, and excreting the seed in a ready-made pile of fertilizer in some other location. granted, most seeds won’t grow in city sewers, but there is no doubt of God’s glory in His designs - it is completely symbiotic and harmonious. no screaming, no blood, no orphaned offspring that will die in a nest somewhere now that we’ve eating its mother.

Well there are parasites that require the death of it’s stage 2 host to complete it’s life cycle. It actually weakens the animal so it is easier for its’s stage 1/3 host to hunt and consume As there are other animals that lay their eggs inside paralyzed animals and the progeny hatch and consume the host from the inside while it is still alive, there is definitely no screaming because it is paralyzed. Nature is full of screaming and blood…

I doubt the evolution of seeded plants factored in the fact that you would go to a toilet with a working sewage system. Also when we consume virtually all of the plants we do we do not help in thier life cycle we end it.

carnivores in the wild do serve a purpose in culling herds - removing sick and old. but when humans hunt animals, they generally go after the young, healthy animals. only in very limited cases is this type of culling beneficial to the herd. of course it is not healthy to be eating sick animals, which is one thing that makes me believe that this relationship is a disordered one. if God really meant for us to do this, it would be of benefit to His creatures as well as to humans - the kind of symbiotic relationship that humans have with plants. but of course this is my opinion, based on what i know about wildlife population models and plant life. i still do believe that instantaneous, painless killing of an animal might not be the best thing for the environment or the herd.

Well if you understand population models you would know that predator populations decline alongside prey populations. But what happens when you heard and raise your prey? We have altered population models and have altered the environment to suit our own needs and as a result we have prospered

so to me, if i don’t have to kill or harm an animal to satisfy my appetite or nutritional needs… why would i do it? God has a purpose for all His creation - that purpose doesn’t have to be all about me - my comfort, my tastebuds, my wants, or my vanity.

Like I said about I do not know which god I would even be thinking about since I’m unconvinced of any of thier existances. So this is not something I consider. I see life and I understand life, but a mosquito has no purpose, it just is…

 

[cathybramble]

Well there are parasites that require the death of it’s stage 2 host to complete it’s life cycle. It actually weakens the animal so it is easier for its’s stage 1/3 host to hunt and consume As there are other animals that lay their eggs inside paralyzed animals and the progeny hatch and consume the host from the inside while it is still alive, there is definitely no screaming because it is paralyzed. Nature is full of screaming and blood…

I doubt the evolution of seeded plants factored in the fact that you would go to a toilet with a working sewage system. Also when we consume virtually all of the plants we do we do not help in thier life cycle we end it.

Well if you understand population models you would know that predator populations decline alongside prey populations. But what happens when you heard and raise your prey? We have altered population models and have altered the environment to suit our own needs and as a result we have prospered

Like I said about I do not know which god I would even be thinking about since I’m unconvinced of any of thier existances. So this is not something I consider. I see life and I understand life, but a mosquito has no purpose, it just is…

well you’re on a catholic web site, discussing this with a catholic person, so you got a catholic perspective

but you are wrong when you say we don’t help plants by consuming them - again it is symbiotic. humans and animals require plant fiber for healthy digestion… the end of digestion of course results in plant fertilizer. so even if some plants die when we eat them, their habitat (soil) is enhanced by participating in our digestion.

while nature might be full of screaming and blood, we as humans are higher than that. at least that is what i keep hearing. we are more evolved, more intelligent… all the more reason why it is beneath us to behave like wild animals.

 

[cathybramble]

Well if you understand population models you would know that predator populations decline alongside prey populations. But what happens when you heard and raise your prey? We have altered population models and have altered the environment to suit our own needs and as a result we have prospered

the current model under which we operate does not cause prosperity to everyone though. one person’s prosperity often causes another person’s poverty - so i don’t think you’re making a fair claim about prosperity. in developing nations, it would be enough to grow crops to feed hungry people, but they are encouraged to grow cash crops to export to us (we import a lot of grain to feed livestock). the result is low wages and critical food shortages for them and more profits and convenience for us. “prosperity” is something these people never see.

 

[Abbadon]

well you’re on a catholic web site, discussing this with a catholic person, so you got a catholic perspective

but you are wrong when you say we don’t help plants by consuming them - again it is symbiotic. humans and animals require plant fiber for healthy digestion… the end of digestion of course results in plant fertilizer. so even if some plants die when we eat them, their habitat (soil) is enhanced by participating in our digestion.

Human manure is poor fertilizer. But I can understand what you envisage a symbiotic relationship to be, however you use the term incorrectly, never mind. IF we were to live in the wild then yes perhaps we would if nothing else cause no great harm to the fulfillment of reproduction of plants. But when we eat fruits their seeds cannot grow when they come out, in other animals perhaps, but not so effectively in us. You have to understand that evolutionarily these things evolved alongside species, they did well because it helped them survive. BUT now we live in an age of plumbing and sewage management plants. So that symbiosis is different. Now plants survive on how much we desire to cultivate them.

while nature might be full of screaming and blood, we as humans are higher than that. at least that is what i keep hearing. we are more evolved, more intelligent… all the more reason why it is beneath us to behave like wild animals.

More evolved is a poor term. You are as equally evolved as any species alive today. More intelligent sure. I’m sure I behave rather differently to wild animals in several aspects, and I’m sure I share similarities in others.

 

[Abbadon]

the current model under which we operate does not cause prosperity to everyone though. one person’s prosperity often causes another person’s poverty - so i don’t think you’re making a fair claim about prosperity. in developing nations, it would be enough to grow crops to feed hungry people, but they are encouraged to grow cash crops to export to us (we import a lot of grain to feed livestock). the result is low wages and critical food shortages for them and more profits and convenience for us. “prosperity” is something these people never see.

I never said anything about prosperity for everyone. That is a very good and nobel aim. And one that I would like to see us strive for.

Well perhaps they should realize that they should grow crops to feed themselves instead… You can’t encourage someone to starvation… thats just ridiculous

 

[Marfran]

“Animal Rights” vs. Human Rights

October 1, 2006. Sometimes sincere people concerned with protecting innocent human life will express sentiments along these lines: “Animal rights advocates are eager to protect all kinds of animal life, but seem to ignore the most important animal of all, the human animal. They are willing to save the whales, but abort the humans. Protecting animals can never be as important a task as protecting young humans from abortion, embryonic stem cell research or other forms of experimentation.” Such a viewpoint, though fundamentally correct, should not be taken to signify that animal abuse in our society is an ethical issue that we can forget about. Rather, concern for exercising proper stewardship over animals ought to be a balanced part of a broader concern to avoid exploiting the vulnerable, wherever they are encountered.

The Catholic Church recognizes how man holds a special place in creation, while remaining an integral part of that creation. Made uniquely in God’s image and likeness, he still belongs to the animal kingdom. Feet on the ground, head looking up to the stars, man exercises a limited dominion over the world and over the remainder of creation, including the animal kingdom. He perennially faces the question of how to properly exercise that dominion, which is not an absolute right of domination over God’s creation. He is called to reasonably use, rather than abuse, the powers he has received.

To be precise, we should not speak of animal rights but of animal welfare. Animals do not have rights in the way that humans do. Animal welfare means that we recognize that animals can be used for reasonable purposes, but should not be abused.

more at

ncbcenter.org/FrTad_MSOOB_16.asp

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Completely fabulous post!!! Right on brother!!!

 

[Marfran]

No.At least not for me, anyway. You see, I’m pro life.
I want a sustainable planet with clean air and clean water. Food that is untainted and abundant enough for everybody. If and/when the pro life movement is victorious, then we are going to need these things for or children and our grand children, etc so on and such…

Right now we are using up and polluting our resources at such a rate that in theory we could be out of everything within a few generations.

Of course, I also believe that the amount of food that is wasted feeding crop animals could feed so many more humans than cows can. I am sure you will question this so I am on top of my resources to be ready when you do.

ps-did I mention I don’t care if you eat meat?

Right on brother!!!

 

[Marfran]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon
…] If there was no suffering and death was instant an painless what then?

in that case you’d be talking about plants

Right on sister!!!

 

[Marfran]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon
Well if you understand population models you would know that predator populations decline alongside prey populations. But what happens when you heard and raise your prey? We have altered population models and have altered the environment to suit our own needs and as a result we have prospered

the current model under which we operate does not cause prosperity to everyone though. one person’s prosperity often causes another person’s poverty - so i don’t think you’re making a fair claim about prosperity. in developing nations, it would be enough to grow crops to feed hungry people, but they are encouraged to grow cash crops to export to us (we import a lot of grain to feed livestock). the result is low wages and critical food shortages for them and more profits and convenience for us. “prosperity” is something these people never see.

Right on sister!!!

 

[Sair]

Having just chowed down on a magnificent pumpkin and pea risotto (not vegan, I’m afraid, but definitely vegetarian), which I thoroughly enjoyed cooking, and my husband and I heartily savoured, I’m feeling inspired to post some thoughts about the attitudes and mindsets related to vegetarian and vegan eating.

At the most basic level, it comes down to one’s own conscience. Broadly speaking, there seem to be two ‘types’ of conscience represented on this thread and others that have dealt with issues related to the farming and eating of meat.

Simply put, either you feel that other animals are worthy of moral consideration, or you don’t.

I am proud to be among the former category, and I also feel fortunate that I am in a position to choose organically-produced meat, when I feel the desire to eat meat. However, I also know that if I were not in such a position, I could happily exist on a meat-free diet and not feel any sense of loss. Cooking can be a highly creative endeavour, and I feel incredibly satisfied when enjoying the fruits of my labour, whether they contain meat or not.

For me, and I suspect for many others posting to this thread, dietary choices are a matter of respect - respect for one’s own body, respect for the environment, and for those of us who choose to eat meat, respect for the animals that provide it.

I know there are some who would say, “What does it matter how we treat animals if they’re just going to be killed anyway?” I would say that it’s worth remembering that even in pagan cultures where human sacrifice was part of their tradition, the individual being sacrificed was often highly respected and valued, even revered as an integral part of the community’s commitment to their gods. Bear in mind, also, that when animals were sacrificed to God in the Old Testament, they were always the best of the flock - I doubt that it would have been a sign of respect for God to present Him with a maltreated animal.

So, yes, it is possible to have a high regard for animal welfare and still eat meat - you just have to make appropriate choices about where your meat comes from.

 

[Marfran]

Having just chowed down on a magnificent pumpkin and pea risotto (not vegan, I’m afraid, but definitely vegetarian), which I thoroughly enjoyed cooking, and my husband and I heartily savoured, I’m feeling inspired to post some thoughts about the attitudes and mindsets related to vegetarian and vegan eating.

At the most basic level, it comes down to one’s own conscience. Broadly speaking, there seem to be two ‘types’ of conscience represented on this thread and others that have dealt with issues related to the farming and eating of meat.

Simply put, either you feel that other animals are worthy of moral consideration, or you don’t.

I am proud to be among the former category, and I also feel fortunate that I am in a position to choose organically-produced meat, when I feel the desire to eat meat. However, I also know that if I were not in such a position, I could happily exist on a meat-free diet and not feel any sense of loss. Cooking can be a highly creative endeavour, and I feel incredibly satisfied when enjoying the fruits of my labour, whether they contain meat or not.

For me, and I suspect for many others posting to this thread, dietary choices are a matter of respect - respect for one’s own body, respect for the environment, and for those of us who choose to eat meat, respect for the animals that provide it.

I know there are some who would say, “What does it matter how we treat animals if they’re just going to be killed anyway?” I would say that it’s worth remembering that even in pagan cultures where human sacrifice was part of their tradition, the individual being sacrificed was often highly respected and valued, even revered as an integral part of the community’s commitment to their gods. Bear in mind, also, that when animals were sacrificed to God in the Old Testament, they were always the best of the flock - I doubt that it would have been a sign of respect for God to present Him with a maltreated animal.

So, yes, it is possible to have a high regard for animal welfare and still eat meat - you just have to make appropriate choices about where your meat comes from.

Right on sister!!!

 

[Abbadon]

Having just chowed down on a magnificent pumpkin and pea risotto (not vegan, I’m afraid, but definitely vegetarian), which I thoroughly enjoyed cooking, and my husband and I heartily savoured, I’m feeling inspired to post some thoughts about the attitudes and mindsets related to vegetarian and vegan eating.

At the most basic level, it comes down to one’s own conscience. Broadly speaking, there seem to be two ‘types’ of conscience represented on this thread and others that have dealt with issues related to the farming and eating of meat.

Simply put, either you feel that other animals are worthy of moral consideration, or you don’t.

Agreed. Most eukarya are for me personally not worth my moral consideration in terms of me consuming them. However all species that are not my food or do not cause me any harm, I simply leave be. From unicellular to multicellular life…

I am proud to be among the former category, and I also feel fortunate that I am in a position to choose organically-produced meat, when I feel the desire to eat meat. However, I also know that if I were not in such a position, I could happily exist on a meat-free diet and not feel any sense of loss. Cooking can be a highly creative endeavour, and I feel incredibly satisfied when enjoying the fruits of my labour, whether they contain meat or not.

well good for you

For me, and I suspect for many others posting to this thread, dietary choices are a matter of respect - respect for one’s own body, respect for the environment, and for those of us who choose to eat meat, respect for the animals that provide it.

Again good for you.

I know there are some who would say, “What does it matter how we treat animals if they’re just going to be killed anyway?” I would say that it’s worth remembering that even in pagan cultures where human sacrifice was part of their tradition, the individual being sacrificed was often highly respected and valued, even revered as an integral part of the community’s commitment to their gods. Bear in mind, also, that when animals were sacrificed to God in the Old Testament, they were always the best of the flock - I doubt that it would have been a sign of respect for God to present Him with a maltreated animal.

Yes well since I neither believe in human sacrifice or Yahwey, for me that is just a complete waste of good meat. However I think the point of we should not cause undue harm to be a good one.

So, yes, it is possible to have a high regard for animal welfare and still eat meat - you just have to make appropriate choices about where your meat comes from.

I do not think you need to have a high regard for animals. Just a desire to cause no undue harm to anything. IF one day I found out that plants actually do have some form network feeling of pain, it would drastically change the way I eat. IF one day I found out that rabbits thought at a sentient level to the point of abstract thought and complex thought, I would again drastically change the way I eat. IF i found out that one day animals have no soul and as a result feel no pain that would also change my position.

I’m sure I agree with many points the vegans and vegetarians make. However for different reasons and far less emotionally.

 

[StephenFrancis]

The resurrected Christ, who did not need to eat at all, cooked a nice fish breakfast for his friends in the Gospels. To avoid animal cruelty, great (ie free range meats, etc when possible). To become vegetarian? Not happening.

Now where is my steak and eggs???

 

[That_one_guy]

1 Yahweh sent the prophet Nathan to David. He came to him and said: In the same town were two men, one rich, the other poor.
2 The rich man had flocks and herds in great abundance;
3 the poor man had nothing but a ewe lamb, only a single little one which he had bought. He fostered it and it grew up with him and his children, eating his bread, drinking from his cup, sleeping in his arms; it was like a daughter to him.
4 When a traveler came to stay, the rich man would not take anything from his own flock or herd to provide for the wayfarer who had come to him. Instead, he stole the poor man’s lamb and prepared that for his guest.
5 David flew into a great rage with the man. ‘As Yahweh lives,’ he said to Nathan ‘the man who did this deserves to die.
6 For doing such a thing and for having shown no pity, he shall make fourfold restitution for the lamb.’
7 Nathan then said to David, 'You are the man!..