Animals You Eat: Bad Meat!

[4elise]

For the animals, for peace, for the poor(but not really), for my health, why doesn’t God play must of a larger role in this train of thought? It’s more about what makes “me” feel good about myself.

I understand the frustration - the same points - the same baseless arguments - it is all about ‘me’ -------- we are populated with the ‘me’ ‘me’ ‘me’ ‘me’ ------ and I really thought on a Catholic forum we would find more of the ‘us’ 'us ’ us = gee maybe the occasional charitable ‘them’ — Peace – praying for you - don’t hit your head too hard!

 

[Cracker_Mom]

you ra moron.
so ban me.

Well, as I guessed, only folks working for the meat industry could put out such bad PR for vegetarians. This demonstration of courtesy & eloquence could make potential vegans jump right off the fence.And head down the road for a nice burger & fries,

 

[Abbadon]

I still want to get to the ethical core of the problem

I will agree that eating vegetables (non-organic) is more sustainable and resource heavy than animal breeding.
I would disagree that eating meat is unhealthy for you or that vegetables are healthier, your body doesn’t care where you get your nutrients from, it only cares what and how much of it you get…

But the main issue seems to be cruelty to animals and even the eventual killing of animals for our nutritional requirements (which happens no where else in nature ).

Now I want to envisage two hypothetical scenarios and for vegans/vegetarians to tell me if in these scenarios eating meat is acceptable, if not why not?

Scenario 1
The replicator, meat is made atom for atom, with no side effects and no animal is used, it is exactly the same as meat minus the brain usually required to grow it. It is made by restructuring atoms to make up meat. This is a non-existent technology and is purely science fiction, for now.

Scenario 2
Freerange Farming, If animals were not stressed and lived in peace and harmony (more so than can be said for their counterparts in the wild) being fed well and living well. Up till the point where they are killed instantaneously without ever feeling pain. All of this is done with the purchase of carbon credits to balance out any additional carbon produced as a result and the methane is collected and used for fuel.

 

[Agatina]

I don’t like to be extreme. I’m an omnivore but I eat less meat than many. I love veggies.
I love pots of soup & stews & stir frys rather than a steak or large piece of meat.
All things in moderation.

 

[Dtmccameron]

I’ve a dietary idea. Based on what God gave us. Our teeth.

Think about it. We’ve got, what, 30? Few more, few less, point is, of them, we’ve

4 pointy ones.
8 snippy ones.
20 crunchy ones.

Thereby, 4/32 of our diet, or 1/8 ought to be meats.
1/4 oughta be grassy, fruity, leafy things.
and 5/8 oughta be crunchy stuff. Nuts and things.

Alternatively, 1/8 on cake, 2/8 on brownies, and 5/8 on chips and cookies.

Animals are plenty sustainable. And once we get the robots (solar powered tractors!) to do our farming for us (mostly wheat, for flour, flour for cakes, cookies, and brownies) our animals can free range all they want, and we can have BBQs ever so often as we lounge about in togas eating grapes and strumming on lutes all day.

Yup, with food taken care of, we can just sit around, think up bad poetry, sing, dance, pray, and the smart ones can spend all the time they want thinking up new medicines and whether or not Pluto should be a planet.

(My idea of utopia)

 

[Abbadon]

I’ve a dietary idea. Based on what God gave us. Our teeth.

Think about it. We’ve got, what, 30? Few more, few less, point is, of them, we’ve

4 pointy ones.
8 snippy ones.
20 crunchy ones.

Thereby, 4/32 of our diet, or 1/8 ought to be meats.
1/4 oughta be grassy, fruity, leafy things.
and 5/8 oughta be crunchy stuff. Nuts and things.

Alternatively, 1/8 on cake, 2/8 on brownies, and 5/8 on chips and cookies.

Cute, but I don’t think nutritional requirements quite work like that… hehehehe

Animals are plenty sustainable. And once we get the robots (solar powered tractors!) to do our farming for us (mostly wheat, for flour, flour for cakes, cookies, and brownies) our animals can free range all they want, and we can have BBQs ever so often as we lounge about in togas eating grapes and strumming on lutes all day.

Yup, with food taken care of, we can just sit around, think up bad poetry, sing, dance, pray, and the smart ones can spend all the time they want thinking up new medicines and whether or not Pluto should be a planet.

(My idea of utopia)

Sounds like a plan…

 

[Abbadon]

No vegans in the house?

 

[Michaeljc4]

1. I am a vegetarian, or rather, a mostly-etarian. About 95% of what I eat is either vegetables or dairy. This is a work in progress for me.
   
   a. This is imperfect, however, since dairy animals can be treated quite harshly as well, and suffer some of the same problems as beef, pork, chicken, and farmed fish. We (my wife and I) try to buy organic milk, and we get eggs from a nearby chicken farm where the birds aren’t living in cages. Likewise, someone pointed out yesterday that vegetables are often grown by the poor and the mistreated (like migrants). This is a real issue. Sadly, since I am not a farmer…I do the best I can.
   
   b. My problem isn’t with meat per se, it’s with how meat is produced in this country (and around the world). In my opinion, factory farmed meat is morally unjustifiable, and I will not participate. There are “free range” and organic alternatives available, and I find myself using them when my wife–who is not a vegetarian–wants to eat meat. Again, we get the chicken from the little chicken farm, and we are looking into buying a share of a happy-cow: one that is not tortured before being slaughtered, or filled with drugs/antibiotics, and which hasn’t been fed with grain imported from overseas. Not a perfect solution, but better than the alternative mindlessness with which I ate before thinking about all of these issues. Knowing what I now know about how the majority of meat is made in the US, I just can’t eat it in good conscience. That’s not because I don’t like it: I do, very much. But…I just can’t do it.
   

      i. If someone invites me to their home for dinner, I eat whatever they are making. I find it incredibly rude to try and dictate what someone cooks for you, unless you have some sort of health issue.

   c. Not eating meat at all, as a way to be peaceful (i.e. not eating animals because they have been killed for our consumption) is a whole different ball of wax. I, personally, like the spiritiual discipline that comes along with being a vegetarian because it forces me to give up something I enjoy for a greater good (it’s sort of like Lent…every time I sit down to eat). Eating meat is not immoral, in my view. I think there are smarter ways to produce it, and the costs of eating meat–as it is generally produced in this country–is far higher than the price tag on the package. In and of itself, though? Bon appetite.

Does all of this seem complicated? It is. Has not eating meat, for the most part, been a good thing for me? It has, on many levels: economic (we save a lot of money), enviromental (meat production is bad for the environment), health (lost weight, less drugs and hormones in my body), spiritual (forces me to sacrifice and be mindful about my priviliges vs. the reality of those who are poor). Is eating meat a sin? Of course not.
*Is thinking hard about how our choices impact the world around us a good thing to do, and changing our behavior if we find a gap between our ideals and our actions? *

You tell me.

“Be the change you wish to see in the world.” -Gandhi

 

[Sean_Boyle]

1. I am a vegetarian, or rather, a mostly-etarian. About 95% of what I eat is either vegetables or dairy. This is a work in progress for me.
   
   a. This is imperfect, however, since dairy animals can be treated quite harshly as well, and suffer some of the same problems as beef, pork, chicken, and farmed fish. We (my wife and I) try to buy organic milk, and we get eggs from a nearby chicken farm where the birds aren’t living in cages. Likewise, someone pointed out yesterday that vegetables are often grown by the poor and the mistreated (like migrants). This is a real issue. Sadly, since I am not a farmer…I do the best I can.

It sounds like you consume food just like the rest of us, in moderation and with a eye to the impact of your discisions.

 

[Michaeljc4]

No worries, Sean.

I am often taken aback by how…strongly people feel about this issue.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

keep repeating it to yourself, “my choices have nothing to do with what is happening in the world.” and maybe it will become true.

you’ve missed the answer to your point. People are starving in the world because of greed not the occasional consumption of meat in the world. There is already enough food in the world to feed everyone, meat or no meat. I believe you’ve fallen off track a little bit, here.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Noody hunts because they HAVE TO anymore. It is considered a sport.a vacation. for a trophy of antlers, gamey meat and bragging rights.

Your generalizations and conclusions are unfounded and baseless. I know many three deer a year families. They hunt to put meat on the table.

I believe that you’ve lost tough with parts of our society.

 

[Marfran]

I still want to get to the ethical core of the problem

I will agree that eating vegetables (non-organic) is more sustainable and resource heavy than animal breeding.
I would disagree that eating meat is unhealthy for you or that vegetables are healthier, your body doesn’t care where you get your nutrients from, it only cares what and how much of it you get…

But the main issue seems to be cruelty to animals and even the eventual killing of animals for our nutritional requirements (which happens no where else in nature ).

Now I want to envisage two hypothetical scenarios and for vegans/vegetarians to tell me if in these scenarios eating meat is acceptable, if not why not?

Scenario 1
The replicator, meat is made atom for atom, with no side effects and no animal is used, it is exactly the same as meat minus the brain usually required to grow it. It is made by restructuring atoms to make up meat. This is a non-existent technology and is purely science fiction, for now.

Scenario 2
Freerange Farming, If animals were not stressed and lived in peace and harmony (more so than can be said for their counterparts in the wild) being fed well and living well. Up till the point where they are killed instantaneously without ever feeling pain. All of this is done with the purchase of carbon credits to balance out any additional carbon produced as a result and the methane is collected and used for fuel.

Abbadon: I recently saw a TV show (a comedy) that talked about growing meat in a lab–independent of a living animal. I thought–boy, that would solve some ethical issues with the treatment of animals–people could have their meat and animals would not suffer. I thought that the premise was far-fetched but you say that it is close to becoming reality???

I have evolved to be a vegan and would not eat meat grown this way for health reasons, but would be happy that people who did choose to eat meat could do so without subjugating animals to suffer.

I am glad that ***you ***are trying to stay on topic to the purpose of this thread: the treatment of animals in large-scale agribusiness.

Who posted the disrespectful POLL???

Dietary choices should not necessarily influence how one feels about the treatment of animals at the slaughterhouse. An omnivore can find farming/slaughterhouse practices to be in need of adjustment, as well as a vegan/vegetarian.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Life has become so easy to some in this country that now people must create hardships for themselves to feel alive. How crazy is that? Those people can only see the word “enjoy” as bringing pleasure to oneself. Your welcome for the eye opener.

Does anyone else see the irony here?

Sometimes as Paul state when preaching to the Jews you must preach as a Jew, when preaching to the Gentiles you must be a gentile…

There is no irony here. If you see irony then you see the mirror that has been held up for you.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Again, Sean, show me a specific example of a groundless assertion.

If, in writing back and forth to you and Cracker Mom, I’ve made you angry somehow, I apologize. That wasn’t my intention. For myself, giving up meat has been a great way to practice a spiritual discipline, and–in a small sense–make the world a slightly better place. There are a lot of good reasons to stop eating factory farmed meat. I hope you’ll give it some thought.

That’s all, dude.

factory farmed meat… I’m not arguing for it. Who here is? There are law that protect against that sort of thing. There are laws that are intended to bring humane treatment to animals. I’m not against them. Who here is? What are you arguing against… Something that is already against the law???

 

[Sean_Boyle]

please research factory farming so that you can hear what is being said instead of crying “elitism.” until you do, there is no sense in trying to explain the problems to you - you need to see the truth for yourself or you will forever accuse everyone else of being unfair, or deny that the problems even exist.

Did she say factory farms? What are you arguing against?? It seems as if an farm is a factory farm to some here. Is that true?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

textured vegetable protein can provide a good source of healthy protein too, probably for considerably less than you pay to buy ammo, hunting license, put gas in the car, and hunt some animal. Some people just walk into their backyard.

Think of the carbon footprint assocated with buying vegetable protein, processing it, planting it, picking it, transporting it vs eating organically grown deer meat that was dispatched in the quickest way possible.

Sorry to hear that you know someone that hunts for the thrill of killing. That does seem very strange. Don’t place generalisation on the rest of society because you know a strange one.

 

[Michaeljc4]

factory farmed meat… I’m not arguing for it. Who here is? There are law that protect against that sort of thing. There are laws that are intended to bring humane treatment to animals. I’m not against them. Who here is? What are you arguing against… Something that is already against the law???

Animal cruelty laws–to the best of my knowledge–don’t apply to large scale factory farms. I could be wrong. With that said, even if there are laws, I am willing to bet that they are either not being evenly enforced, or that the definition of ‘cruelty’ doesn’t include some of common practices one would find in a typical industrial farm. Stuffing chickens into tiny wire cages for their all of their lives, debeaking them, and shooting them full of drugs may not be ‘cruel’ according to the law, for example. I certainly know it happens, on a large scale, across the nation. Moments of research will provide you with the same information that I can find, Sean, so I’ll leave you to it. See what you can turn up.

There are several underlying issues that seem to be sticking in folks’ craws. There are definite regional variations in grocery stores. For example, the meat we buy here (in the Greater Boston Area, as well as other large cities) is produced in other parts of the country, for the most part, in large factory settings. For folks in more rural areas, closer to small farms, it may be that the meat is more humanely produced by local farmers. I just can’t say.

I remember when I lived in Florida and went to a grocery store. There was a ‘Family Pak’ of pig’s ears! I was flabbergasted. How in the h*ll do you eat pig’s ears? And what family needs twenty of them? Same with headcheese…I was astonished that people actually eat things like that! Chitlins, too. G R O S S…to me. To other folks, that’s just what they eat.

I had tofu for dinnery, BTW.

 

[That_one_guy]

No vegans in the house?

Right here, buddy!

 

[That_one_guy]

Your generalizations and conclusions are unfounded and baseless. I know many three deer a year families. They hunt to put meat on the table.

I believe that you’ve lost tough with parts of our society.

Actually, he’s right on target (on target…get it!
His only problem is that he is not afraid to say what should be said, but he can’t say it in a way that is non offensive.