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Aelred_Minor
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The question isn’t how you write it, but the underlying concept.
Do you believe the true Catholic Church to be a single visibly identifiable human organization in this world with clearly defined boundaries and complete internal communion, or do you believe it to be made up of or potentially made up of multiple such bodies, united in common beliefs and (perhaps) practices?
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mgoforth
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GKC, I really, really don’t understand it (although I understand the intent) when people compare the number of posts they have to someone else and think that difference implies something.
But if you’re saying that I misunderstood you when you said “the sooner you get your act together, the better for all”…that may be correct. I took your statement literally. Please elaborate.
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GKC
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I did elaborate. I’ve posted so often that some folks who’ve been around, long time since, know my style. What it implies is an assumption that you’ve read a few of my posts, and don’t know me so well. Yet.
We (youall and weuns) are in schism. You hold certain things we don’t. If you move in our direction, things might get less schismatic. I don’t expect that to happen, before next Christmas, at any rate.
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GKC
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Aelred_Minor
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Then that’s what us Methodists and former Methodists would call small-c catholic, because in our printed versions of the Apostles’ or Nicene Creed the word “Catholic” is always written “catholic”, and children have to be taught that the word doesn’t mean “Catholic” with a big-C, but “the universal church of all believers.” Obviously not everyone has the same usage, just like not all Protestants have an identical ecclesiology.
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GKC
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mgoforth
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I don’t have a position of authority in the Church, but I can make an educated guess that since those who do have authority haven’t changed any of the Church’s core teachings in 2000 years, it’s not likely to happen in the future either. And as I said before, you left us by inventing new practices and beliefs. We’ll happily accept you back just as the father accepted the prodigal son, but the move is yours to make. As evidence of this, the Church has allowed Anglicans (lay people and clergy) to come back into communion with Rome while preserving many elements of spirituality that are unique to you and were developed after the split. Well worth it to have anyone revert back to Christ’s Church…as long as it doesn’t violate any of the basic tenets of the faith.
I guess that’s the big difference between Catholic and Protestant mentality though. Why would we want to “reform” an institution that Jesus personally founded and promised to guide for all time?
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
It seems pretty clear that Christ had a permanent solution in mind when he established the Catholic Church, not something that would only apply for 1500 years, after which He’d let us try our own hand at tinkering with the design.
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Aelred_Minor
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Just for the record, we do want to reform the Catholic Church, over and over again preferably. The Church is in constant need of reformation because it is made of sinners. The thing is reform presupposes a form, and in the case of the Catholic Church must always happen without rupture.
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mgoforth
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I think I see what you mean, Aelred. But wouldn’t it be more accurate to say we want to constantly seek to reform the members of the Church, instead of the Church itself? The beliefs and commands Christ left for us have no need to be reformed.
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GKC
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Aelred_Minor
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The members of the Church are, in a sense, the Church Herself.
I know what you mean and I think we have the same underlying idea, but I think my way of expressing it is more in keeping with typical Catholic usage. The Church is always reforming Herself and always in need of reform, but also always guided and preserved by the Holy Spirit and assured of perseverance to the end of time and to Eternity.
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campeador
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Hmmm. I thought *Regnans in Excelsis * was, for the most part, to show support for Mary and for the Catholic Scots and Irish.
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Kaninchen
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Well the Catholic Irish were always to the fore in Papal diplomacy, as we’ve been talking about in this thread in Apologetics.
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mgoforth
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All the members of the Church together make up the body of the Church.
I don’t want to completely derail the thread, but my original intent was to show that Protestant groups attempting to reform the core teachings of the Church has never been necessary, because those core teachings have never been changed. In order for the Church as a whole to need reforming, wouldn’t She have to stray from the Truth in Her teachings first? This hasn’t happened in over 2000 years and Christ has assured us it never will, though individuals and even large groups within the Church certainly can and do stray. I thought of these verses when I read your response:
"Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor. For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up. Furthermore, if two lie down together they keep warm, but how can one be warm alone? And if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him. A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart." Ecclesiastes 4:9-12
Anyone who leaves the fellowship of the Church may fall and not have another to lift him up, or may get cold and have no one to keep him warm, or may be overpowered by another and have no brother or sister to defend him. On the other hand, when two or more are together (representing the entirety of the Church here), if one gets in trouble there are others to help him. The only way the Church would need to be reformed is if all the members were corrupted at the same time and there was no one left to pick up the pieces. And that would mean that some basic belief would have to be changed officially. The Holy Spirit has always made sure, and will continue to make sure this doesn’t happen.
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GKC
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Depends on where you attend. I attend Mass at my parish each week. The 1030 one.Great, so can we expect to see you at Mass?
GKC
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GKC
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Della
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It could be interpreted that way. Of course, wouldn’t you agree that all persons in leadership positions, great or small, have to “gamble” at some time or other. It seems to come with the job.
And btw everyone. We seem to have gone far afield from the OP’s topic. Mea culpa.
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