Anne Rice: from Catholic to atheist to Catholic to ex-Catholic

[Rich_Olszewski]

True enough, but sad and painful. They need our prayers. When branches fall off, somehow it hurts the whole vine. On the other hand, pruning is good too. But yet again, the branches that are pruned off get to be burned. We need to be good people in the eyes of God. Here is the full verse from Romans 2 which I alluded to in my previous comment, which I believe has much signficance for this thread.

“For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”

I believe that my friends, to paraphrase Scripture, “do what the law requires…even though they [no longer] have the law.” And, that will excuse their falling away when they will be judged. There may be something else that causes them to be damned, but I can’t see that it will be their losing the faith as a matter of their own consciences.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Many Catholics do not have much, if any, theological training and I have to assume that they go by the secular definition. Therefore, they would be leaving the Church “in good conscience” in their own hearts even if it doesn’t fit the theological definition.

This does not change the fact that they have failed in a very basic tenet of the Church to have a rightly formed conscience and that they are choosing to leave the Church through their malformed conscience.

Also, there are those who come to have intellectual differences with the Church and leave it for that reason. Several friends, who graduated with me as Catholics from Fordham University, are now agnostics and I know that they didn’t leave for petty reasons like pique or because they’re pro-choice or want divorces, etc. Their “falling away,” if you like, was done on intellectual grounds.

Can you enlighten me as to what an “intellectual difference” might be that would lead one to leave the Church?

Jesus invited all to follow Him. He didn’t say that they couldn’t leave His company.

I am sorry but this is contradictory. How can one follow but not belong? How can one follow Jesus but not belong to the Church He left behind to lead His followers?

Jesus said to follow Him and then set up His Church to show us how to follow Him, He did not say make up your own ways of following me.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

This does not change the fact that they have failed in a very basic tenet of the Church to have a rightly formed conscience and that they are choosing to leave the Church through their malformed conscience.

Yes, that sounds right.

Can you enlighten me as to what an “intellectual difference” might be that would lead one to leave the Church?

I cannot speak for such individuals. I do know that a few found religion to be irrelevant to their lives, and at least one who came to think that all religions are fairy tales.

I am sorry but this is contradictory. How can one follow but not belong? How can one follow Jesus but not belong to the Church He left behind to lead His followers?

One can be invited to join a group, but later decide to leave. I can only think that those men found belonging to the Catholic Church to be of little consequence to their lives.

Jesus said to follow Him and then set up His Church to show us how to follow Him, He did not say make up your own ways of following me.

True enough.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I cannot speak for such individuals. I do know that a few found religion to be irrelevant to their lives, and at least one who came to think that all religions are fairy tales.

Then we really can’t discuss this and it should not have been brought up.

But the example you did give, that all religions are fairy tales, while the person might hide behind the saying that it is an “intellectual difference” it is really a moral choice.

I am one that does not believe that there can be any intellectual reason to leave the Church. The only reasons are moral/religious. Some may try say it is because of intellectual differences but they are either lieing to themselves or trying to appear superior to believers.

One can be invited to join a group, but later decide to leave. I can only think that those men found belonging to the Catholic Church to be of little consequence to their lives.

Well these people are deluding themselves as this is not what the Church Teaches.

They can separate themselves from Christ’s Church but in doing so they separate themselves from Christ and from the fullness of the Truth.

Some may not believe this but the Catholic Church Teaches this and to be a Catholic one must believe what the Church Teaches.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I am one that does not believe that there can be any intellectual reason to leave the Church. The only reasons are moral/religious. Some may try say it is because of intellectual differences but they are either lieing to themselves or trying to appear superior to believers.

These are honest men. I wouldn’t make that last accusation because I can’t read their hearts. I don’t discuss that in sufficient detail to determine of their reasons have merit or not.

Well these people are deluding themselves as this is not what the Church Teaches.

They can separate themselves from Christ’s Church but in doing so they separate themselves from Christ and from the fullness of the Truth.

Some may not believe this but the Catholic Church Teaches this and to be a Catholic one must believe what the Church Teaches.

I agree with you, however, to those people, the Church and its teachings became irrelevant. They have lost their faith. It does happen. As they no longer believe what you and I believe, then they are no longer Catholic. They would agree with you about that.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

These are honest men. I wouldn’t make that last accusation because I can’t read their hearts. I don’t discuss that in sufficient detail to determine of their reasons have merit or not.

I am placing no judgements. I am stating a fact of my belief.

If you did not wish to disucss this you should not have brought it up.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I am placing no judgements. I am stating a fact of my belief.

If you did not wish to disucss this you should not have brought it up.

It was my observation of those men. I pass no judgment on them either. I respect your beliefs, to be sure, as I also hold them.

 

[PRmerger]

Rich, just out of curiosity where did your friends (who left out of intellectual grounds) go? Would you think it is an agnosticism of the type Anne Rice has embraced? especially when you say “Jesus invited all to follow Him. He didn’t say that they couldn’t leave His company.” I am confused by this kind of position which is akin to saying one professes love for his wife but hates being around her.

Just to be clear: I don’t believe Anne Rice has embraced agnosticism. She would profess in a profound, utterly pure love for God and His Son Jesus. She rejects religion, specifically Christianity and most definitively Catholicism.

But not a rejection of Christ and His teachings, as she understands them.

 

[ddarko]

I think the problem with Anne Rice and many Catholics who fall out is that they do not know what it means to be Catholic. After one questions and determines that God exists and Christ existed, then they have to bow to the authority of Scripture, Tradition and Church. Afterwards, there can be no question of Church’s teaching. The decision has already been made. After-all, who are we to deem the teachings of God as folly? What we can do is determine if we can believe in God or not, Christ or not. These things fall under the domain of human understanding. We can see the Christ was a historical figure. The existence of the Church stands as living evidence of his resurrection. We can know that God must exist from our Philosophy and Scientific evidence. But morality, is not one of our strong points. We are fallen creatures so we have a distorted view on right and wrong. We must surrender to the Church’s teachings through the holy spirit.

So to say that “I believe in Christ and God BUT I can’t accept some of the Catholic teaching” is therefore absurd. Because to deny the church means to deny Christ’s own words that he would not let his church teach wrong things. So the result of denying the teaching DOES entail that he/she is denying Christ and God.

God Bless

 

[margaret57]

**This is just how I see it:

I think people get confused when they read inspirational books, and then
try to put the writers on a place that they are not intended to be.
They are meer handlers of Gods inspirations. They still have to
deal with the world , and , like the rest of us , are sinning, imperfect,
failing, indecisive humans. We all fail, we all question, and we all have
been given free will to make our own decisions. The ironic thing is
that God continues to give us gifts.

I think, as long as we remember where the inspirtional words actually come
from, and who is worthy of our praise we will be alright. **

 

[PRmerger]

**This is just how I see it:

I think people get confused when they read inspirational books, and then
try to put the writers on a place that they are not intended to be.
They are meer handlers of Gods inspirations. They still have to
deal with the world , and , like the rest of us , are sinning, imperfect,
failing, indecisive humans. We all fail, we all question, and we all have
been given free will to make our own decisions. The ironic thing is
that God continues to give us gifts.

I think, as long as we remember where the inspirtional words actually come
from, and who is worthy of our praise we will be alright. **

Margaret, I’m not sure what you’re saying, as it pertains to Anne Rice. Could you clarify please?

 

[margaret57]

Margaret, I’m not sure what you’re saying, as it pertains to Anne Rice. Could you clarify please?

There are many who look at people who carry messages
as something more, I suppose, that’s what I am trying to say.
I heard someone say, *‘they had faith’ *in a certain preacher…
You can hold these mortals in such high regard as they are subject
to fail, like all of us, and then , in turn, our faith can falter.

I hope i will be able to clairfy my points better in the future…

((((I’m kind of new here! )))))

 

[PRmerger]

There are many who look at people who carry messages
as something more, I suppose, that’s what I am trying to say.
I heard someone say, *‘they had faith’ *in a certain preacher…
You can hold these mortals in such high regard as they are subject
to fail, like all of us, and then , in turn, our faith can falter.

I hope i will be able to clairfy my points better in the future…

((((I’m kind of new here! )))))

Well, welcome!

But how does this pertain to Anne Rice?

 

[margaret57]

Well, welcome!

But how does this pertain to Anne Rice?

I guess I am trying to say, she is only a confused human being after all.

 

[PRmerger]

I guess I am trying to say, she is only a confused human being after all.

Ah. Yes. As we all are.

 

[Willy_Jose]

Just to be clear: I don’t believe Anne Rice has embraced agnosticism. She would profess in a profound, utterly pure love for God and His Son Jesus. She rejects religion, specifically Christianity and most definitively Catholicism.

But not a rejection of Christ and His teachings, as she understands them.

Thanks for the clarification. She’s confusing, just the same.

 

[erichael]

Anne Rice is one of the biggest disappointments in my life. With the exception of her erotica written prior to “Interview With A Vampire”, I have read everything she has published. It was so easy to get lost in her world. The last book, and believe me it is the last, was entitled, “Called Out of Darkness”, her account of her return to the Church. As luck would have it, I no sooner finished the last page when she announced, rather vociferously, her hatred of the same Church she had just extolled.

Ms. Rice screams bipolar. For her, it is all or nothing and with an openly gay son, she opted for nothing. Although she is adament that she still loves Christ and will continue to serve Him, I do not see how that is possible when she spits on His Church.

When her daughter died at age six, Anne buried her as a professed atheist. Many years later she buried her husband Stan, an unrepentant atheist while she was completely enamoured of the Church even insisting before he died that he marry her in the Church.
She is to be pitied and prayed for. Unfortunately she does carry a bit of clout and is in a position to lead many fencesitters astray.

I will never buy another book written by her nor will I read her rants online. One cannot be on again, off again with the Church. You are either in or you’re out and outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

Ms. Rice screams bipolar. For her, it is all or nothing

As for me, I hold her in high respect for this. While it saddens me that she opted for “nothing”, I applaud her integrity.

If she cannot accept "all’, then she has done the right thing by leaving.

God’s grace is sufficient to bring her back.

Although she is adament that she still loves Christ and will continue to serve Him, I do not see how that is possible when she spits on His Church.

I agree with this, too. For each and every time she says, “Christ said ___” or “Jesus did ______” it is only through the CC that she knows this.

One cannot be on again, off again with the Church

Why not?

Is this not, essentially, what we do each and every time we sin?

You are either in or you’re out and outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

To be sure there is no salvation without the Church. But, as the Church professes, the lines are fluid as to whether you’re in or out. Protestants are still part of the Body of Christ, the CC.

 

[erichael]

I don’t think integrity has anything to do with this at all. Anyone with integrity would not launch her career writing erotica. This has more to do with her son and her hangers-on of which she has many and they are all atheists like herself or so she said in her memoir, “Called out of Darkness”.

Which Anne are we talking about anyway? Anne the athiest who gossips about her friends and family mercilessly, her words not mine, or the Anne of enlightenment who found the same church she left behind when she was seventeen? Does someone with integrity bounce back and forth like a red rubber ball?

I will admit, I’ve done a fair amount of bouncing in my sixty years, but I didn’t and don’t do it in front of millions of fans on the six o’clock news as well as every anti-Catholic forum out there. No one forced her back into the Church and no one forced her out with the exception of her own inner circle. If she had any integrity at all she would have stood up for the Christ she professes she still loves and His Church inspite of her worldly friends. She should have slunk away quietly with her tail between her legs sorrowful she had, yet again made another error in judgement. To do this on a public stage is despicable and to accuse our priesthood of being 75% gay is ridiculous which just goes to show what a ridiculous creature she is to bite the very hand she now wishes to promote. Gay rites for her son and everyone else that isn’t a priest of course, because if you are a priest and gay, that is very bad, but if you are a spoiled rich brat with nothing to do but write bad books for teens being gay is very, very good. That is why I insist she has no integrity, but that is only my narrow-minded opinion.

exfan

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think integrity has anything to do with this at all. Anyone with integrity would not launch her career writing erotica.

This is a different issue than her departure from Catholicism after her reversion. She was, after all, an atheist when she wrote that stuff, no?

Does someone with integrity bounce back and forth like a red rubber ball?

Of course we do. Otherwise, why the need for the confessional?

I will admit, I’ve done a fair amount of bouncing in my sixty years, but I didn’t and don’t do it in front of millions of fans

So it is not her “bouncing” but her public proclamation of such to which you object?