Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:Ultimately there are very clear requirements in Canon Law for what makes Baptism, First Communion and Confirmation valid. These conditions were not met in the case of my step-son, as no valid consent was given.
Really, you should be happy for him. He has received many graces because of his confirmation and first communion. I don’t understand how anyone would want to take that grace away from someone else.My step-son phrases it as “he scored the Confirmation level.” It’s a game to him. He doesn’t understand the sacrament or his obligation to the Church. His mother reasoned that if he were allowed to wait until he was 14 (age of consent in Canon Law) he would not willing choose to be confirmed - as she choose not to be confirmed when she was a teenager. She was just confirmed last year at age 51.
If he doesn’t understand then teach him.
And yes there is significant history of animosity between my family and my step-son’s mother. Prior to this occurrence we had managed to keep the child out of it.
I understand the re-ordering of the sacraments - but I also understand that in the entire State of Arizona only the Diocese of Phoenix has adopted this practice. All other Diocese still require that they be 15 or 16 to start preparation.
Just because only one diocese in the state has adopted this practice does not make it any less valid. There are diocese all over the country that have adopted the restored order of the sacraments. The children, some at the age of 7, have validly received their sacraments.
My step-son is happy about achieving the higher levels of Catholicism (as he sees it), however he is extremely distraught about the lying part. He has now been expelled from the Catholic school he was attending because in January (when the lying started by direction of his mother and Priest) he also started lying, cheating and stealing in his classroom.
Could there be an underlying problem there such as his parents arguing over the validity of his decision to receive the sacraments of the chruch? You stated above that he has always been kept out of things in the past. How much damage is this issue that you have causing him? Would it not be in his best interest to leave be?
Ultimately there are very clear requirements in Canon Law for what makes Baptism, First Communion and Confirmation valid. These conditions were not met in the case of my step-son, as no valid consent was given. The may not confer sacraments on an unwilling party - and since my step-son was under the Age of Consent, his parents must provide consent. My question was can these sacraments be invalidated based on Canon Law. I can only find discussion of marriages or vocation, but not the other sacraments. One would assume that the ability to invalidate applies to all sacraments.
You will have to find out if two parents must consent. As his mother (and she is his mother now matter how much you and his father dislike the fact) did consent and that may be something you will have to live with. You will also have to find out if the custodial parent must be the one to consent.
Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God
This is where you would need to talk to an expert. Your step-son did have the consent of one parent: his birth mother. I couldn’t tell you whether or not this is sufficient from a Canon Law perspective. You would really need to talk to someone in the Tribunal Office.Ultimately there are very clear requirements in Canon Law for what makes Baptism, First Communion and Confirmation valid. These conditions were not met in the case of my step-son, as no valid consent was given. The may not confer sacraments on an unwilling party - and since my step-son was under the Age of Consent, his parents must provide consent. My question was can these sacraments be invalidated based on Canon Law. I can only find discussion of marriages or vocation, but not the other sacraments. One would assume that the ability to invalidate applies to all sacraments.
Hi sach008,Ultimately there are very clear requirements in Canon Law for what makes Baptism, First Communion and Confirmation valid. These conditions were not met in the case of my step-son, as no valid consent was given. The may not confer sacraments on an unwilling party - and since my step-son was under the Age of Consent, his parents must provide consent. My question was can these sacraments be invalidated based on Canon Law. I can only find discussion of marriages or vocation, but not the other sacraments. One would assume that the ability to invalidate applies to all sacraments.
no not in the sense of making a valid sacrament no longer valid, but yes an investigation and ruling can be made to determine of the original sacrament was indeed valid. Examples: baptism not using trinitarian formula or water, confirmation using something other than Chrism blessed by the bishop or using the wrong words, first communion would depend on the validity of the Eucharist being offered by the priest, not on “first communion” of the candidate. Anyone who is baptized may be admitted to the Eucharist if they have been properly prepared and are worthily disposed, according to the local bishop. In all these cases we are speaking of actions of the celebrant, not the candidate.Can baptism, first communion or confirmation be annulled?
maybe sacrilege but both sacraments were valid, the validity depends on actions of the priest, not the candidateNo, I don’t think so. They’re sacraments.
HOWEVER… if mortal sin was knowingly and intentionally withheld in first confession, then the first confession was no good, and the first communion was sacrilege… So there’s two more sins to confess in addition to EVERYTHING ELSE from the first one… but then you’d be good.
I believe that Nullity is a concept that is only used in marriage.
*Nullity may also be used of Holy Orders (At least: Canon Law so uses it – But IANACL).PS: You can’t “annul” anything that makes an indelible mark on your soul (an ontological change). Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders cannot be undone. Once validly received they are there forever.
Nullity is a term used for marriage cases.
thank you for the additional backgroundMy step-son was give his First Communion and Confirmation over my husband’s objections. We wanted him to wait until he was 14 to be confirmed so that he could understand the significance of the sacrament. In our diocese, Phoenix, children are now receiving Confirmation at age 9 - the same time as First Communion.
His mother and the parish priest decided to ignore my husband and confirm my stop-son anyways. They told my step-son to lie and not tell his Dad he was preparing for this or that it would be done.
No family, expect his mom, were present for the ceremony. He did not get to have a party or any kind of celebration for those two major Rites. Also I doubt that the sacraments are valid because both my step-son, the priest and his confirmation knew that it was being conducted by lying to his Dad (and legal custodian).
We would like to have these annulled so that when he is older can can receive them in a pure manner with joy and all of his family there to celebrate.
Additionally - his Baptism in question because neither of his God Parents (or his parents) had been confirmed. I know this is a requirement, but not sure if this is grounds for annulment.
Actually, nullity of a marriage means that the sacrament of marriage was invalid from the beginning.Just a note on words. It would not be null. It would be invalid from the beginning.
Again, invalid.
I believe that Nullity is a concept that is only used in marriage.
This here shows the sad state of catechisis today.He’s 9 - he is not old enough to know what he wants or why. He was unfairly manipulated by his mother and his parish Priest - people he thought he could trust.
No, it means a Sacramental marriage never took place.Actually, nullity of a marriage means that the sacrament of marriage was invalid from the beginning.
You ares so correct! I just want to quote this article from Monsignor Pope:This here shows the sad state of catechisis today.
Confirmation is not an adult choice for the faith, it is not a coming of age ritual.
You do not need to know anything to be confirmed. It is bad theology of the Sacrament to believe otherwise.
The Eastern Churches perform all the Sacraments of Initiation on infants, they are baptized, confirmed, and then given first Eucharist. If knowledge was a requirement then all this would invalid yet it is not.
That depends on who *You *are (and whether *You *have the use of reason).You do not need to know anything to be confirmed. It is bad theology of the Sacrament to believe otherwise.
Can. 889 §1. Every baptized person not yet confirmed and only such a person is capable of receiving confirmation.
§2. To receive confirmation licitly outside the danger of death requires that a person who has the use of reason be suitably instructed, properly disposed, and able to renew the baptismal promises.
teeCan. 890 The faithful are obliged to receive this sacrament at the proper time. Parents and pastors of souls, especially pastors of parishes, are to take care that the faithful are properly instructed to receive the sacrament and come to it at the appropriate time.
Code:Originally Posted by **NewEnglandPries** [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6586718#post6586718) *Actually, nullity of a marriage means that the sacrament of marriage was invalid from the beginning.*
No, NewEnglandPries has it right, it means a VALID marriage never took place. Nullity doesn’t speak to sacramentality, it speaks to validity. Obviously an invalid marriage can never be sacramental but a valid marriage can certainly be non-sacramental.No, it means a Sacramental marriage never took place.
Canon Law speaks to discipline, not theology.That depends on who *You *are (and whether *You *have the use of reason).
tee
His obligations to the Church haven’t changed. We become subject to every law of the Church (varying only according to our state in life) when we get baptized. The fact that he is nine years old still means that his parents and other care-givers are still responsible for helping him meet his obligations, just like before.My step-son phrases it as “he scored the Confirmation level.” It’s a game to him. He doesn’t understand the sacrament or his obligation to the Church.
I agree with the lady…I can get a 9 year old to tell you anything you want to hear if you give me a few days. I can make one believe almost anything as well. AS far as whether it makes anything invalid, I don’t know. But I can tell you that the argument the kid must have wanted it to lie like that doesn’t hold water.Also - not anyone can baptize - in almost all cases it must be done by your parish Priest. Only those that are baptized themselves can confer this sacrament IN CASES OF LIKELY DEATH ONLY. If death was not likely (even if the child lived), the baptism was not valid.
Priest, Profit and King only gives you do much…
Thanks to everyone for the advice. The Diocese is not responding to my inquiries - so I wanted to see what was possible for I pushed to the Arch Diocese.
I do not wish to start a war with my Church - I just want to feel good about the people charged with leadership in my religion. I know what they did was wrong - but I would like for them to say it as well.
Christ’s vision of the Church was prefect - the human’s he gave it to are not. I know this and still trust in Christ’s vision…
Luckily, the Sacrament of Confirmation isn’t about us.I agree with the lady…I can get a 9 year old to tell you anything you want to hear if you give me a few days.
I have to report, sadly, that there is no guarantee that those who are confirmed at 14, or 16 as they are here, will feel any differently. If he does not understand the nature of the sacrament or his obligations as a Catholic, it is your job as a parent to remedy that situation. In RCIA that instruction is typically given as mystagogy after the sacrament, so there is no reason not to begin now to make up any deficiencies. If, as it seems, you have reason to believe the other parent is not going to do this, it will be up to you.My step-son phrases it as “he scored the Confirmation level.” It’s a game to him. He doesn’t understand the sacrament or his obligation to the Church. His mother reasoned that if he were allowed to wait until he was 14 (age of consent in Canon Law) he would not willing choose to be confirmed - as she choose not to be confirmed when she was a teenager. She was just confirmed last year at age 51.
.