Annulment, is it contradictory to scripture or not?

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Whoops. My bad.
No problem. In the difficulty of trying to follow it I thought I’d missed something you were trying to say
“I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery” Mat 19:9

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew19.htm

I see you guys already got this though.
On first look it appears to me that the words “(unless the marriage is unlawful)” have been inserted to provide ‘guidence’ to the Catholics reading it.

blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=19&verse=9&version=KJV#9
 
Actually, the New American Bible does say it. And I believe thier interpretation.
Respectfully, there is nothing to interpret. **It is not in the Greek text. **
Therefore, Jesus said it.
I am afraid He did not. Check for yourself.
Are you a Greek Scholar?
The good thing is that no one needs to be. One can simply look at the inspired text and see what you quote as plainly missing.

Here is the Greek text:

blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=19&verse=9&version=KJV#9

There is no anullment anywhere even implied.

…
 
Nobody is granted an annulment for the sake of having one. People want one because they love someone and want to make sure without a doubt that they are not marrying into an adulterous relationship, according to 2000 years of teaching.
And this is exactly the problem I speak of elsewhere.

The RCC cannot give any couple any guarantees that they are “without a doubt” not married in the eyes of God.

Annulments, by definition, are fallible and subject to human error. They are ultimately merely guesses that state the couple may or may not be married in the eyes of God. This has been seen of late in a high profile marriage and annulment.

So instead of offering the couple a guarantee "without a doubt," annulments do just the opposite: they bring to light that the decision can be erroneous and faulty and thus lead the couple to pursue adulterous affairs. This also may place the RCC in a position of complicity in the violation of a holy covenant.

This is unacceptable if we as Christians are to stand firm for marriage.

…
 
Respectfully, there is nothing to interpret. **It is not in the Greek text. **
I am afraid He did not. Check for yourself.

The good thing is that no one needs to be. One can simply look at the inspired text and see what you quote as plainly missing.

Here is the Greek text:

blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=19&verse=9&version=KJV#9

There is no anullment anywhere even implied.

…Matthew 5:31-32; 19:3-9. NAB.
Douay-Rheims New Testament: Matthew 5:31 And it hath been said, whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. 32 But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:3 And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. 6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? 8 He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Fornication would make the marriage unlawful according to Our Lord.

and in the Greek:
5:31 ερρεθη δε· ὁς αν απολυση την γυναικα αυτου, δοτω αυτη αποστασιον.
εγω δε λεγω ὑμιν ὁτι ὁς αν απολυων την γυναικα αυτου παρεκτος λογου πορνειας ποιει αυτην μοιχευθηναι, και ὁς εαν απολελυμενην γαμηση, μοιχαται.

19:3 και προσηλθον αυτω φαρισαιοι πειραζοντες αυτον και λεγοντες· ει εξεστιν ανθρωπω απολυσαι την γυναικα αυτου κατα πασαν αιτιαν; ὁ δε αποκριθεις ειπεν· ουκ ανεγνωτε ὁτι ὁ κτισας απ᾽ αρχης αρσεν και θηλυ εποιησεν αυτους και ειπεν·
  • ἑνεκεν τουτου καταλειψει ανθρωπος
    τον πατερα αυτου και την μητερα
    και κολληθησεται τη γυναικι αυτου
    και εσονται οἱ δυο εις σαρκα μιαν* ὡστε ουκετι εισιν δυο αλλα σαρξ μια. ὁ ουν ο θεος συνεζευξεν, ανθρωπος μη χωριζετω. λεγουσιν αυτω· τι ουν μωυσης ενετειλατο δουναι βιβλιον αποστασιου και απολυσαι αυτην; λεγει αυτοις ὁτι μωυσης προς την σκληροκαρδιαν ὑμων επετρεψεν ὑμιν απολυσαι τας γυναικας ὑμων, απ᾽ αρχης δε ου γεγονεν οὑτως. λεγω δε ὑμιν ὁτι· ὁς αν απολυση την γυναικα αυτου μη επι πορνεια και γαμηση αλλην μοιχαται.
 
Fornication would make the marriage unlawful according to Our Lord.
And thus He gives His support for a divorce in this case…not an annulment.

If there is a divorce, there is a valid marriage.

Or are you saying that all couples that suffer from the fornication of a spouse have suddenly never been married in the eyes of God to begin with?

…
 
And thus He gives His support for a divorce
in this case…not an annulment.

If there is a divorce, there is a valid marriage.

Or are you saying that all couples that suffer from the fornication of a spouse have ***suddenly never been married in the eyes of God to begin with?***No.
 
Fornication would make the marriage unlawful according to Our Lord.
That it would, but the Catholic version is about illegality, per se

It’s the difference between saying

“Those men are in gaol for committing crimes”

to

“Those men are in gaol for committing murder”

Whilst all murderers are criminals, not all criminals are murderers.

By changing this meaning the Catholic Church has permitted a reinterpretation of marriage to include all matters (it would) deem illegal… which is a latitude it might grant itself, but it’s not in the words of Jesus.
 
And this is exactly the problem I speak of elsewhere.

The RCC cannot give any couple any guarantees that they are “without a doubt” not married in the eyes of God.

Annulments, by definition, are fallible and subject to human error. They are ultimately merely guesses that state the couple may or may not be married in the eyes of God. This has been seen of late in a high profile marriage and annulment.

So instead of offering the couple a guarantee "without a doubt," annulments do just the opposite: they bring to light that the decision can be erroneous and faulty and thus lead the couple to pursue adulterous affairs. This also may place the RCC in a position of complicity in the violation of a holy covenant.

This is unacceptable if we as Christians are to stand firm for marriage.

…
The best answer is for those who enter Marriage, that they never seek to enter another Marriage unless their spouse has died. Sounds good to me!
 
And this is exactly the problem I speak of elsewhere.

The RCC cannot give any couple any guarantees that they are “without a doubt” not married in the eyes of God.

Annulments, by definition, are fallible and subject to human error. They are ultimately merely guesses that state the couple may or may not be married in the eyes of God. This has been seen of late in a high profile marriage and annulment.

So instead of offering the couple a guarantee "without a doubt," annulments do just the opposite: they bring to light that the decision can be erroneous and faulty and thus lead the couple to pursue adulterous affairs. This also may place the RCC in a position of complicity in the violation of a holy covenant.

This is unacceptable if we as Christians are to stand firm for marriage.

…
You whole line of reasoning is off. And you are showing a lack of knowledge about this sacrament. Not your fault I guess, but the fault of the ideology you carry and propogate.

First of all, the RCC never gives any guarentee that they are married in the eyes of God. Marriage is the only sacrament in the One True Faith that is between the two participants and God.

The priest officiates, but the promise is made between the applicants and God. It is God who sanctifies and blesses the Marriage Sacrament.

But prior to this, there are strict rules the applicants must follow before the One True Faith will allow them the Marriage Sacrament. There are approximately seven meetings that need to be attended before one can be married in the Catholic church.

And this is all done to minimize any error in giving this important Sacrament. For instance, the applicants have to go over a series of questions with thier priest or deacon and have to swear to the truthfulness of thier answers. Some of the questions include, do you intend to be faithful to this marriage, do you plan to have children, do you plan to raise them Catholic, do you intend on being faithful to your spouse for the rest of your life, etc. (I have paraphrased these. Do not take them literally!)

Should there be a failure to uphold these agreed too questions, then there might be a case for annulment. But even then, its no guarentee, as you assume.

There is also psychological testing done in an effort to guage applicant compatibility. And this is highly effective. It brings up issues that the applicants may not have addressed or may not be addressing for what ever reasons. But when confronted with it and with a mediator, then both applicants are going into the marriage with a better knowledge of thier intended spouse. In a sense, all things are brought to the light.

Secondly, you give a civil definiton of annulment. And you assume that an annulment is an easy thing to obtain. That all a person need to do is request it and it happens.

That’s hardly the case. On average, its a two year process. And this is generally because and in-depth investigation into why the marriage failed is required. An annulment has to meet strict criteria before the church will grant approval if at all. Even in a civil annulment, to which you are really referring, annulments are only granted in strict circumstances but without an investigation.

But more disturbing is your idea that the One True Faith is somehow leading its flock astray or into adulterous relationships by granting annulments. That is just not the case. And I think its malicious of you to even say something like this. Thats just rude and disrespectful.

I will agree with you that there is no guarentee. But that is between the applicant/spouses and God. Its not the fault of the One True Faith who takes every possible step in preparing its people for this most Holy of Sacraments. Remember, we are all sinners and imperfect. If we weren’t then Jesus came for no reason.

When I re-read you post to formulate my answer, I can’t help but be reminded of a verse said by Jesus to Peter. I think its appropriate and applicable to you given your logic.

"“Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.” Mat. 16:23

One more thing. Please explain to me how a Protestant can give a “guarentee without a doubt” without running afoul of being a mediator for the couple before God.

In my understanding of Protestantism, no man may come between God and himself. In other words, no man may mediate otherwise he is playing God.
 
Respectfully, there is nothing to interpret. **It is not in the Greek text. **

I am afraid He did not. Check for yourself.

The good thing is that no one needs to be. One can simply look at the inspired text and see what you quote as plainly missing.

Here is the Greek text:

blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=19&verse=9&version=KJV#9

There is no anullment anywhere even implied.

…
You don’t have me convinced. I will believe the Greek Scholars of the One True Faith over you defective logic anyday.

Not only that, but you are quoting a KJV version of Greek translations. Its already faulty. KJV isn’t accurate. Never has been.
 
If a “valid” marriage did not really take place to begin with, this means that when the couple had sex they were in reality sinning because they would be guilty of fornicating.

If the couple who are in this “invalid” marriage, then it would follow that any children they have would be illegimate.
 
If a “valid” marriage did not really take place to begin with, this means that when the couple had sex they were in reality sinning because they would be guilty of fornicating.

If the couple who are in this “invalid” marriage, then it would follow that any children they have would be illegimate.
You would be correct only if the couple had full and complete knowledge and intentionally did what they knew was wrong. In other words if they knew and truly believed that their Marriage was invalid then they would indeed be comitting the sin of fornication if they went ahead and lived together as husband and wife.
 
You would be correct only if the couple had full and complete knowledge and intentionally did what they knew was wrong. In other words if they knew and truly believed that their Marriage was invalid then they would indeed be comitting the sin of fornication if they went ahead and lived together as husband and wife.
Huh? If the catholic church later determines they did not have a valid marriage that means they were indeed fornicators whether they were aware of it or not. You don’t need to be “aware” of sin to be doing it. You can sin in ignorance.
Take for example how many people are living together. They may not think they are sinning but in reality we know that is not the case.
 
Huh? If the catholic church later determines they did not have a valid marriage that means they were indeed fornicators whether they were aware of it or not. You don’t need to be “aware” of sin to be doing it. You can sin in ignorance.
Take for example how many people are living together. They may not think they are sinning but in reality we know that is not the case.
I generalized in my prior answer, we were speaking about actions with regard to a Marriage being later determined invalid. With both parties believing that they were in fact Married.
Yes, the action would have been the sin of fornication, objectively , but it would not have been held against either of them as a mortal sin if they both thought that they were Married. In addition a child born in what was thought to be a valid Marriage is not considered born out of wedlock and is never considered illegitimate by the Church.
 
Br. Rich SFO;2549459]I generalized in my prior answer, we were speaking about actions with regard to a Marriage being later determined invalid. With both parties believing that they were in fact Married.
They have reason to believe they were married in the first place when the priest and state declare that they are indeed married legally.
Yes, the action would have been the sin of fornication, objectively , but it would not have been held against either of them as a mortal sin if they both thought that they were Married.
So you agree that they were in a state of sin all along?
In addition a child born in what was thought to be a valid Marriage is not considered born out of wedlock and is never considered illegitimate by the Church.
I agree that a child born of a “valid marriage” is legitimate. However a child born out of an invalid marriage would not be.

What this demonstrates is that annulments leads to all kinds of unbilical and sinful things.
 
They have reason to believe they were married in the first place when the priest and state declare that they are indeed married legally.

So you agree that they were in a state of sin all along?

I agree that a child born of a “valid marriage” is legitimate. However a child born out of an invalid marriage would not be.

What this demonstrates is that annulments leads to all kinds of unbilical and sinful things.
That demonstrates nothing. Please expand your argument.
 
No, they only juridicially define what is sinful and what is not and as long as the successors to Peter and the apostles can bind and loose–yes they can judge whether a marriage should be annulled or not.

That is totally biblical.

It doesn’t matter who accepts the Catholic Church’s authority to bind and loose.

Those who will not listen to the Catholic Church–why listen to them?

Jesus said if a person will not listen to the church that they should be treated like a publican or a sinner.

If anyone has a problem with that they have a problem with Jesus!
 
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