Annulment question if not married in the church, and not while in the church

[dans0622]

No I did not know that but it makes sense to me. And you misunderstood my post. I said the tecnicality of not getting a dispensation and therefore never having a valid marriage is a get out of marriage free card. Likewise, I admitted to having a very limited understanding based only on what I have heard.

Hi wjp984,

The way I make sense of it is that the Church, like any visible society, has certain formalities that must be observed in order to marry. In the secular world, you can only marry in the presence of certain, qualified people (judge, etc.). If you ignore that law and just express your consent before your spouse, a couple friends, and the ocean, you are not married. So, if you later want to “divorce,” you won’t be able to even do that because you were never married in the first place, as far as the state is concerned.

The requirement of “canonical form” (expressing marital consent before a priest/deacon and two witnesses) is similar for those who are Catholics. The Church is more generous than civil government since this form can be dispensed, in certain circumstances. But, if a Catholic simply ignores this requirement, and “marries” at the county courthouse or whatever, there is no marriage. Canonical form isn’t a “get out of marriage free card” as much as a “can’t get into marriage in the first place card.”

Hope that makes some sense.

Dan

 

[dans0622]

It’s not that simple. The canon law stating that a marriage that has not acquired a dispensation from disparity of cult only applies to those who have not defected from it by a formal act. There are three cases to consider:

(1) A Catholic who, through invincible ignorance, or vincible ignorance without malice, enters into such a marriage. In such a case, the ignorance is a mitigating factor, and the marriage is presumed valid, unless other circumstances warrant invalidity. Therefore such a person would have to go through the process of annulment if the Catholic wants to marry in the Catholic Church.

(2) A Catholic who, with full knowledge of the law, enters into such a marriage. In such a case, such a Catholic can conceivably be considered to have defected from the Catholic Faith by a formal act (the marriage). In such a case, the Catholic is excommunicated, and would be considered a non-Catholic. So his/her marriage would be no different than a non-Catholic marriage, and if such a person wants to marry in the Catholic Church in the future, he/she would also need to go through the annulment process (if annulment indeed applies).

(3) A Catholic who marries a non-Catholic apostolic Christian. In such a case, the marriage is always presumed valid, but illicit.

Hi Marduk,

I agree with # 3. But, I have never before heard anything like what you say in #1 and #2. Canon law doesn’t make any exceptions for ignorance of any kind, as far as I know. Then, according to the “Vatican” interpretation (given in March of 2006, I think) of how “formal defection” is accomplished, an attempted marriage wouldn’t do it. Maybe you can point me toward some resources I can look at?

Thanks.

Dan

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Dan,

Hi Marduk,

I agree with # 3. But, I have never before heard anything like what you say in #1 and #2. Canon law doesn’t make any exceptions for ignorance of any kind, as far as I know. Then, according to the “Vatican” interpretation (given in March of 2006, I think) of how “formal defection” is accomplished, an attempted marriage wouldn’t do it. Maybe you can point me toward some resources I can look at?

My point main point was that a Catholic who was previously married, no matter what the circumstances, will still have to go through a process for the determination of invalidity if he/she decides at some future time to marry formally in the Catholic Church.

Such a necessary process always presumes validity unless otherwise proven. That would be the case for #1. As far as #2 is concerned, I didn;t say that such a person has definitely defected. That can only be determined upon a hearing (if the matter even comes to the attention of the bishop). But it is possible, if the person persists in that invalid marriage despite proper ecclesiastical warning, that such a person will be excommunicated. A ferendae sententiae excommunication is certainly within the competence of the proper ecclesiastical authority on such a matter.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mary1173]

each marriage case is unique so this is a general answer only. If facts are as you state, (and in my experience there is often a lot more to the story that posters don’t reveal up front–not that they should necessarily, at least not here), then your marriage was invalid due to lack of form (you did not follow Catholic law on marriage) and to have that investigated and established is a rather simple paperwork process, not a full annulment proceeding. Yes it must be done if you ever wish to marry. If there is no intervening marriage or plans to marry all you need is confession and absolution to return to the sacraments. Welcome Home!

In general for other poster here in with similar questions. The first best place for a Catholic to go is straight to the parish priest with these issues. This is just a stop on the way, like looking in the phone book for restaurant listings is not going to get you fed unless you actually go to the place and order your food.

and no, a baptized Catholic adult who has not been prepared for the other sacraments does not belong in RCIA, but in a class with others like herself in the same situation, and that only if she needs sacramental preparation. I strongly urge anyone who has been away from the Church for a long time, particularly if they practiced another faith during that time, to speak with the priest and follow his advice on getting more and deeper education on their faith, since they likely have many more questions and issues, and deserve to have help with them.

this is true.

 

[7_Sorrows]

i was not catholic when i was married and i was married in a civil ceremony.

the marriage was very short. 4 years. i have been divorced for over 20 years and never remarried. if i should decide to remarry i would need an annulment.

this is one issue with the Catholic church i am not in agreement with and i would probably leave the church if i were to remarry rather than have to go through the annulment process.

 

[puzzleannie]

Yes, I was confirmed, about the age of 10. I don’t remember too much of actual learning from that. And I do feel that I would need to rejoin. I left at 18, “never to return”, but had very little understanding of the faith, only that it was legalistic, no faith involved. Yes, I did go to another church, in my late 20’s, Luthern ELCA for about 5 years, then went non-denom untill last year. When I say rejoin, or convert, it is because I knew very little. I never considered myself Catholic. Just FYI. I would not have asked a Bishop for permission to marry outside the church, because I wasn’t Catholic, so I didn’t need permission. In effect I excommunicated myself. because of lack of knowledge about what it really means to be Catholic.

as I said, there is usually a lot more to the story.

the case of a Catholic who has formally defected from the Church is different, and yes that might affect validity of the marriage, and it might even mean this person should participate in RCIA to the extent that another baptized non-Catholic does. As I say again, each case is unique, she needs to speak to the parish priest, not in a throw away conversation after Mass, but make an appointment for an interview.

addressing your last sentence, you could not excommunicate yourself, first if you were a minor at the time you left off practicing the faith, or if you had no knowledge of the implications if this action, because you lacked proper knowledge of the Faith. Please see the priest at the earliest opportunity and lay your history before him so he can guide you. tip: it is usually a lot easier than it appears at first, and the reason is usually, as you state, lack of knowledge about the faith. May I extend my hope that the priest will introduce you to someone like me, whose happy task it is to instruct those returning to the faith, and know that we share in the joy of your return.

 

[MarionMac]

i was not catholic when i was married and i was married in a civil ceremony.

the marriage was very short. 4 years. i have been divorced for over 20 years and never remarried. if i should decide to remarry i would need an annulment.

this is one issue with the Catholic church i am not in agreement with and i would probably leave the church if i were to remarry rather than have to go through the annulment process.

My future son-in law’s first marriage was even shorter - 3 weeks! he wasn’t baptised at the time. He since became a catholic but the annulment was not granted after a long wait . he and my daughter sadly didn’t want to wait any longer and so left for the greek orthodox church and are getting married soon. the church must lose a good number of Catholics through the human failings of this process and its judgements.

 

[7_Sorrows]

My future son-in law’s first marriage was even shorter - 3 weeks! he wasn’t baptised at the time. He since became a catholic but the annulment was not granted after a long wait . he and my daughter sadly didn’t want to wait any longer and so left for the greek orthodox church and are getting married soon. the church must lose a good number of Catholics through the human failings of this process and its judgements.

i had wondered if the greek orthodox required such a thing as an annulment. thanks for sharing. i agree. i think they probably do lose a good number of Catholics or people who would like to join the Catholic church because of this long process. hopefully, someday, this will no longer be required. i have heard many good things about the greek orthodox church so i hope the newlyweds will be happy there.

 

[Gertabelle]

i had wondered if the greek orthodox required such a thing as an annulment. thanks for sharing. i agree. i think they probably do lose a good number of Catholics or people who would like to join the Catholic church because of this long process. hopefully, someday, this will no longer be required. i have heard many good things about the greek orthodox church so i hope the newlyweds will be happy there.

Since when was the Catholic Church supposed to change in order to make everyone happy?!

The Church did not invent the dissolubility of marriage – GOD did! People can run to other churches because they find the teachings of Catholicism too difficult, but that doesn’t make the Church wrong.

When I have a problem with Church teaching (and believe me, I’ve had some serious ones) I have known that I must change myself and my attitudes, rather than being so arrogant as the think the Church established by Christ Himself has made the mistake.

I hope and pray with all my heart that the annulment process remains in effect, and perhaps even becomes more strict. Christ was the one who said, “He who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.” And last I checked, adultery was a mortal sin.

Our society has so emphasized that happiness is everyone’s number one right that people get mad at the Church for holding firm to God’s limits. Rather than eliminating the annulment process, we Catholics should support each other in the challenges of living according to God’s plan, rather than modern culture’s.

Rant over.

Gertie (the grumpy graduate student)

 

[7_Sorrows]

Since when was the Catholic Church supposed to change in order to make everyone happy?!

The Church did not invent the dissolubility of marriage – GOD did! People can run to other churches because they find the teachings of Catholicism too difficult, but that doesn’t make the Church wrong.

When I have a problem with Church teaching (and believe me, I’ve had some serious ones) I have known that I must change myself and my attitudes, rather than being so arrogant as the think the Church established by Christ Himself has made the mistake.

I hope and pray with all my heart that the annulment process remains in effect, and perhaps even becomes more strict. Christ was the one who said, “He who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.” And last I checked, adultery was a mortal sin.

Our society has so emphasized that happiness is everyone’s number one right that people get mad at the Church for holding firm to God’s limits. Rather than eliminating the annulment process, we Catholics should support each other in the challenges of living according to God’s plan, rather than modern culture’s.

Rant over.

Gertie (the grumpy graduate student)

i am not sure it was God’s plan to have the annulment process. why isn’t a civil divorce enough? i am not promoting multiple marriages and divorces at the drop of a hat, but the Church has changed its mind on some things as was shown in Vatican II. i have even heard some say that Vatican II did not go far enough.

 

[Gertabelle]

why isn’t a civil divorce enough?

Because Jesus said “Any man who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.” The Church didn’t make this up. Read the scriptures about marriage and divorce. They are very clear. Divorce from one’s spouse is not allowed except in one or two very specific instances. Annulment is not the same as a “Catholic divorce.”

Gertie

 

[7_Sorrows]

Because Jesus said “Any man who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.” The Church didn’t make this up. Read the scriptures about marriage and divorce. They are very clear. Divorce from one’s spouse is not allowed except in one or two very specific instances. Annulment is not the same as a “Catholic divorce.”

Gertie

i am not sure what a “Catholic divorce” is.

 

[Gertabelle]

i am not sure what a “Catholic divorce” is.

There is no such thing as a “Catholic divorce” – yet that is how many people look at annulments.

You asked why a civil divorce isn’t enough. So now I am asking you: enough for what? Enough to be allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church? Enough to “unloose” what “God has joined together?”

Marriage cannot be undone by civil divorce. And as long as a previous marriage is still in existence, of course that person cannot remarry in the Church. Why? Because God does not bow down before the laws of man! God’s law and God’s authority are what matter.

The process of an annulment looks at whether a sacramental marriage took place between a couple (regardless of what the secular authorities say about it). That is, a couple can get a marriage license, exchange vows, and the law of a country says, “These two people are married.” But the Church says it takes more than that for two people to enter into sacramental marriage. There are requirements for each person in the couple – each person must be entering into the marriage freely (not being pressured for any reason), for example.

If a marriage that has received a civil divorce is declared “null” by the Church, that means that the Church recognizes that a sacramental marriage never took place. If the Church does not grant a decree of nullity, that means the Church is saying that a sacramental marriage did take place, and that the civil divorce is not binding in the Church. In other words, if there is no decree of nullity, then Jesus’ words still hold and if either member of the couple remarries, he or she commits adultery with their new spouse.

Most other churches will allow divorced people to remarry. And many people do leave the Church over this issue of not being allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church without first receiving an annulment. But the Church has it right on this one, and the Church should not change its teachings to match the thinking of the times.

Gertie

 

[mary1173]

“One of the true advantages of being a Catholic. You get to marry someone outside the Catholic Church and get a free get out of marriage free card as soon as you want to divorce the person”


OMG! You can’t really feel this way about marriage…do you?! If you do, I feel badly for you. You need to learn about the sacraments of marriage over again, and this time take them seriously!!

 

[7_Sorrows]

There is no such thing as a “Catholic divorce” – yet that is how many people look at annulments.

You asked why a civil divorce isn’t enough. So now I am asking you: enough for what? Enough to be allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church? Enough to “unloose” what “God has joined together?”

Marriage cannot be undone by civil divorce. And as long as a previous marriage is still in existence, of course that person cannot remarry in the Church. Why? Because God does not bow down before the laws of man! God’s law and God’s authority are what matter.

The process of an annulment looks at whether a sacramental marriage took place between a couple (regardless of what the secular authorities say about it). That is, a couple can get a marriage license, exchange vows, and the law of a country says, “These two people are married.” But the Church says it takes more than that for two people to enter into sacramental marriage. There are requirements for each person in the couple – each person must be entering into the marriage freely (not being pressured for any reason), for example.

If a marriage that has received a civil divorce is declared “null” by the Church, that means that the Church recognizes that a sacramental marriage never took place. If the Church does not grant a decree of nullity, that means the Church is saying that a sacramental marriage did take place, and that the civil divorce is not binding in the Church. In other words, if there is no decree of nullity, then Jesus’ words still hold and if either member of the couple remarries, he or she commits adultery with their new spouse.

Most other churches will allow divorced people to remarry. And many people do leave the Church over this issue of not being allowed to remarry in the Catholic Church without first receiving an annulment. But the Church has it right on this one, and the Church should not change its teachings to match the thinking of the times.

Gertie

i know for a fact that my first marriage (which took place 28 years ago) would not qualify as a sacramental marriage. it will have to take someone very special to want to have to go through the process of an annulment. i know each situation is different and i have seen the paperwork to be filled out. i think a civil divorce should be recognized and if it was a civil ceremony, it obviously wasn’t a sacramental marriage.

 

[pmoo]

Dear sister meridith,

Absolutely not. Annulment ONLY comes into consideration if you want to marry (“again”) in the Catholic Church.

Please keep us informed of your Faith journey.

Abundant Blessings,
Marduk

I asked a similar question in another thread. If she wants to date again, she may need to think about an annulment. Otherwise, she would be a married woman who was dating other men, right?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

if this person were only baptized, would 't they still need to go through RCIA before receiving Holy Communion? maybe it was just not mentioned in the post that the person had been baptized and confirmed both in the Catholic church.

7 Sorrows:

If Meridith received the Eucharist in the Catholic Church, I see no reason why. The Church doesn’t require members who’ve been baptized in the Church and raised in the Church but whose parents and Godparents are so negligent as to not have them Confirmed to attend RCIA in order to receive our Lord’s Body and Blood, or the Absolution of their sins in the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation. The only requirement I can see is that Meridith will need to be Confirmed if she hasn’t been already…

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[7_Sorrows]

7 Sorrows:

If Meridith received the Eucharist in the Catholic Church, I see no reason why. The Church doesn’t require members who’ve been baptized in the Church and raised in the Church but whose parents and Godparents are so negligent as to not have them Confirmed to attend RCIA in order to receive our Lord’s Body and Blood, or the Absolution of their sins in the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation. The only requirement I can see is that Meridith will need to be Confirmed if she hasn’t been already…

Yours in Christ, Michael

yes, but if she had grown up in a family that was negligent and she did not learn very much about the sacraments or what the Catholic church is about, i would think that she would need to meet with someone for awhile before she is confirmed. i was baptized and confirmed in the episcopal church and was not married in any church and i did not attend RCIA, but met with the woman who taught RCIA on an individual basis for about 6 or 7 weeks on various topics before i was confirmed.

 

[mardukm]

I asked a similar question in another thread. If she wants to date again, she may need to think about an annulment. Otherwise, she would be a married woman who was dating other men, right?

Not at all. She can date all she wants. She may never decide to get married again (who knows?). Whatever the case, annulment will only be relevant if she wants to marry in the Church. Dating would not be adultery, unless one wants to have pre-marital sex.

Blessings

 

[mardukm]

i know for a fact that my first marriage (which took place 28 years ago) would not qualify as a sacramental marriage. it will have to take someone very special to want to have to go through the process of an annulment. i know each situation is different and i have seen the paperwork to be filled out. i think a civil divorce should be recognized and if it was a civil ceremony, it obviously wasn’t a sacramental marriage.

Do you understand that Marriage is based on the Natural Law of God, and that it was raised to the level of Sacrament by the Christ? So a non-Sacramental marriage can still be valid, correct?

Doesn’t Jesus explicitly say that divorce is NOT the way it always was? Though diivorce was permitted by God, Jesus asserts that it is not in accord with God’s order. Jesus came to re-instate God’s order. That is why the Catholic Church deplores divorce - because it contradicts the law and order of God.

I also do not understand your statement that you would be willing to leave the Catholic Church just because you don’t want to go through the annulment process. You seem to understand that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but are yet willing to leave it to satisfy a personal desire. While the Eastern Orthodox Church is a good Church, it has departed from Tradition in several important areas, so I would advise not joining it just for the purpose of being able to get married sooner than later.

Since I’ve never gone through the process, and you state you have read the forms, I want to ask you - "Is there any reason you cannot seek an annulment right now? I mean, that way it will be “out of the way” once you finally decide to get married. In truth, I feel bad suggesting this. My personal view is that one should be willing to sacrifice a bit to remain in the Church. I mean, what is one or two years compared to an eternity for your soul?

Blessings
.