Annulments here, annulments there

[LittleDeb]

According to a poster in another thread, “5% of divorced marriages are found valid.”

I would be interested to see what other posters have to say about “annul-proofing” one’s marriage. I think that it ought not to be necessary. Obtaining a declaration of nullity should be a rarity.

With all due respect, I don’t understand your assertion here.

How does denying nullity make a marriage survive? Are you instead saying that the Tribunals are in error declaring them null? If that is the case then the Holy See needs to continue to overturn them.

Are you saying that divorced people should merely continue to presume they were validly married even if they weren’t?

These are honest questions. I have known more than one person who sought Decree of Nullity just “to know.” Many have no intention of seeking marriage again.

 

[Tosk]

According to a poster in another thread, “5% of divorced marriages are found valid.”

I would be interested to see what other posters have to say about “annul-proofing” one’s marriage. I think that it ought not to be necessary. Obtaining a declaration of nullity should be a rarity.

I agree, annulments should be really rare and the number of annulments granted in the US is a real source of scandal for me. I am in a situation similar to the OP and was about to start another thread until I saw this one. I was married when I was 20 and my wife was 18. We were married in a catholic church and we were both very young, but I believe our marriage is valid. There is also little doubt in my mind, because of the abuse of the system, that we could get a declaration of nullity if we wanted to. Could we make it so that, even if we got a civil divorce, a declaration of nullity would be impossible to come by? Would a renewal of our wedding vows count against us if we went for an annulment? What about any legal documents we could sign?

 

[Sillara]

With all due respect, I don’t understand your assertion here.

How does denying nullity make a marriage survive? Are you instead saying that the Tribunals are in error declaring them null? If that is the case then the Holy See needs to continue to overturn them.

Of the decisions from the US tribunals which Rome sees, that is the ones appealed to Rome, the Holy See appears to overturn over 90%.

Are you saying that divorced people should merely continue to presume they were validly married even if they weren’t?

Not to presume they were validly married if they were not, but not to assume that their marriages were invalid just because they failed. It takes only one person to cause a divorce. This does not mean that the marriage was invalid.

These are honest questions. I have known more than one person who sought Decree of Nullity just “to know.” Many have no intention of seeking marriage again.

I am not offended, nor do I assume that your questions have an ulterior motive. I hope you understand that I mean no offense, either.

 

[JulianN]

I was wondering about the large number of annulments too. Does anyone know if requests for an annulment are ever denied?

Is there a way to annul-proof your marriage?

Yes, requests for declarations of nullity are denied by tribunals.

Also, you have to remember that only a small percentage of those who divorce actually bother to go through the process – during which the procurator-advocate can help the petitioner determine whether there are really any grounds.

And your marriage is annul-proofed by being valid. Assuming you don’t divorce, this won’t be an issue anyway. Marriages are presumed to be valid unless shown otherwise. (I’m not talking about those invalid by form)

 

[LittleDeb]

Sorry, I missed this before. It does help clarify.

Actually, as a convert from Protestantism, I was quite aware of the role God’s being outside of time plays in Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception.

YAY!! It always warms my heart when converts really embrace Our Lady!

I suppose that we might be simply talking past each other. I am not saying that happy marriages or good marriages are easily made or maintained. I am saying that contracting valid marriages is not nearly so difficult.

Yes, we probably are just missing each other’s point. Though I do still assert that I find, in western culture, that it is difficult contract a valid marriage. The odds are stacked against it in our pro-death, “me-only,” culture.

 

[Convert_in_99]

So what if you don’t want to divorce, but might have a probable impediment (NOT of form.) What if it’s working for you now, and you intend for it to work until death, must you divorce and try for an annulment? Aren’t you presumed valid and therefore it is best to stick it out until proven otherwise through divorce? This is what I was taught and what I myself believe. Maybe I’m wrong though.

Edit: We talked about this with the priest who married us, who also worked on the tribunal. He said if you are happily married, presume validity. If you are not happily married, seek counseling, try all possible means to save the marriage, but still presume validity. If nothing works and you’ve tried everything and you wind up divorced, then and only then, seek annulment.

 

[LittleDeb]

Of the decisions from the US tribunals which Rome sees, that is the ones appealed to Rome, the Holy See appears to overturn over 90%.

Do you, by chance, know how these are divided? I don’t know the numbers. Are these all, “declared null, overturned to valid,” vice-versa, or a mix of both?

 

[Tosk]

And your marriage is annul-proofed by being valid. Assuming you don’t divorce, this won’t be an issue anyway. Marriages are presumed to be valid unless shown otherwise. (I’m not talking about those invalid by form)

Ok, but my point is that many marriages that are valid are still found null by the tribunals in the US. Just look at the number of declarations of nullity that are overturned by the Holy See. Do I get to appeal any decision that is made to Rome? If I wanted to, is there a way to make sure my marriage is free from the abuse in the tribunals in the US?

 

[LittleDeb]

So what if you don’t want to divorce, but might have a probable impediment (NOT of form.) What if it’s working for you now, and you intend for it to work until death, must you divorce and try for an annulment? Aren’t you presumed valid and therefore it is best to stick it out until proven otherwise through divorce? This is what I was taught and what I myself believe. Maybe I’m wrong though.

Edit: We talked about this with the priest who married us, who also worked on the tribunal. He said if you are happily married, presume validity. If you are not happily married, seek counseling, try all possible means to save the marriage, but still presume validity. If nothing works and you’ve tried everything and you wind up divorced, then and only then, seek annulment.

I totally agree with you! I do NOT want it to appear as if I am advocating for divorce in any cases. I agree 100% with the presumption of validity.

It is just that when nullity is sought, the parties in question have serious reason to believe in invalidity. It only becomes a formal case if invalidity is a possibility. Some cases are dropped right away because there is not enough evidence to even examine. Those are still presumed valid and therefore skew the numbers.

 

[Convert_in_99]

I totally agree with you! I do NOT want it to appear as if I am advocating for divorce in any cases. I agree 100% with the presumption of validity.

It is just that when nullity is sought, the parties in question have serious reason to believe in invalidity. It only becomes a formal case if invalidity is a possibility. Some cases are dropped right away because there is not enough evidence to even examine. Those are still presumed valid and therefore skew the numbers.

But we DO have a likely impediment, namely my emotional/psychological health. So would we have a formal case already, even without the divorce? (Which I have absolutely no desire to obtain.)

Sorry I get very scrupulous and this will eat at me all day if I don’t get answers. I mean I believe what our priest said, it makes sense, but I guess there’s always other opinions and they could also be right.

 

[Sillara]

Some cases are dropped right away because there is not enough evidence to even examine. Those are still presumed valid and therefore skew the numbers.

How could this possibly be tracked? How do we know that this is happening?

Also, the last statistics I read (I read these often, so I’m not sure where it was), were that it was “US tribunals declared invalid found to be valid,” and the numbers were over 90%.

 

[SpaceNeedle]

So would we have a formal case already, even without the divorce? (Which I have absolutely no desire to obtain.)

You’re still married, thus you have no case of any kind

I don’t believe some of the statistics being bandied about here are accurate, or atleast not according to the very experienced person who reviewed my application. Maybe it is the archdiocese I am in, but it doesn’t seem that they’re handed out willy-nilly.

If it makes you feel better, my former spouse was under psychiatric treatment, but my advisor didn’t think much of that, but rather, thought it would have more to do with the fact that he didn’t want children.

And for what it is worth, I wasn’t even baptised then, let alone Catholic, but the Church still trusts that the marriage was real and true, until they investigate and find differently. I think that goes to show they really and truly presume marriage- of all kinds! to be valid.

 

[LittleDeb]

But we DO have a likely impediment, namely my emotional/psychological health. So would we have a formal case already, even without the divorce? (Which I have absolutely no desire to obtain.)

Absolutely NOT! The point of the OP is that each and every one of us could find an impediment if we dig hard enough. I totally agree! My 44-years-married parents, models of Christian marriage, could even find one, I’m sure.

My mom just came in and said that it is like a disposition to cancer cells. Just because you have it, doesn’t mean it *is *cancer. By ALL means live your life with the presumption of validity! There is absolutely NO sin if a couple receives a later declaration.

I liken it to building a house on land you think you own. Either way you own the house.

 

[Convert_in_99]

You’re still married, thus you have no case of any kind

I don’t believe some of the statistics being bandied about here are accurate, or atleast not according to the very experienced person who reviewed my application. Maybe it is the archdiocese I am in, but it doesn’t seem that they’re handed out willy-nilly.

If it makes you feel better, my former spouse was under psychiatric treatment, but my advisor didn’t think much of that, but rather, thought it would have more to do with the fact that he didn’t want children.

And for what it is worth, I wasn’t even baptised then, let alone Catholic, but the Church still trusts that the marriage was real and true, until they investigate and find differently. I think that goes to show they really and truly presume marriage- of all kinds! to be valid.

Thank you so much. :hug1:

 

[Convert_in_99]

Absolutely NOT! The point of the OP is that each and every one of us could find an impediment if we dig hard enough. I totally agree! My 44-years-married parents, models of Christian marriage, could even find one, I’m sure.

My mom just came in and said that it is like a disposition to cancer cells. Just because you have it, doesn’t mean it *is *cancer. By ALL means live your life with the presumption of validity! There is absolutely NO sin if a couple receives a later declaration.

I liken it to building a house on land you think you own. Either way you own the house.

Thank you LittleDeb. Thank you for easing my fears. It means more than you know. :Hug1:

 

[LittleDeb]

How could this possibly be tracked? How do we know that this is happening?

Also, the last statistics I read (I read these often, so I’m not sure where it was), were that it was “US tribunals declared invalid found to be valid,” and the numbers were over 90%.

I don’t know that it is really possible to track anything accurately, but at the same time I have no reason to doubt that 90%. The numbers that are dropped right away are completely anecdotal, I’m sure. My husband’s advocate had no firm numbers of how many he personally, had seen. As an advocate, hundreds of people ask him questions. (Large parish.) He said a portion are dropped because the parties are so elderly that living witnesses are nearly impossible to find. They are supposed to have known one of the parties before and after the marriage.

Another portion are dropped because one of the parties is impossible to locate. Another group are those who might have a very weak case in many different areas. Tribunals tend to focus on the strongest points to prove just one or two aspects the case. I can’t think of other groups off the top of my head, but I know there are many more.

 

[Phemie]

Do you, by chance, know how these are divided? I don’t know the numbers. Are these all, “declared null, overturned to valid,” vice-versa, or a mix of both?

People quote the 90% of US decrees that are overturned by Rome but nobody ever mentions how many that represents. How many times does a respondent appeal a positive decision to the Rota? I doubt that the petitioner ever does, although he/she might appeal a negative decision.

 

[EasterJoy]

What I cannot fit together with the fact that most people’s vocation is marriage is the sheer number of “invalid marriages.” It makes no sense for marriage to be so difficult that most people who divorce are, in fact, invalidly married.

People are selfish; people are difficult. Marriage is under attack, and sex is readily available outside the marriage bond. None of these things, while they can make marriage harder, render a marriage attempt invalid.

While I think that you are right–that too often, capable people throw up their hands and say “we can’t!”–I also know that there are more people out there who are far worse than I every thought there were…and we are talking way beyond “difficult.”

For instance, it is estimated that as many as 1 in 25 Americans fit the clinical definition of a sociopath! (In contrast, the world low in places like Korea is more like 1 in 250.) Sociopaths are not psychotics, they are intellectually capable of positive moral choice, but they are far worse than just “difficult” people. They totally lack emotional empathy, guilt or remorse. I think you would agree that a person without an operational conscience–and I don’t even mean a correctly formed conscience, but any self-imposed standards of right and wrong at all–is not capable of marriage. I will grant you that research suggests that sociopaths are born, not made, but in our society, sociopaths lacking even an intellectual conscience can totally blend in. What does that tell you?

That is just one of the mental incapacities that can make a valid marriage impossible. I know that there is some over-diagnosis, but I wonder if we aren’t in a viciously reinforcing cycle of societal permissiveness and emotional incapacitation. Our “solutions” for inevitable problems of life are only making the problems more entrenched.

If a certain level of social deception is expected, for instance, sociopaths are not even recognizable. What good does it do to marry at a later age, when the intervening years are devoted completely to self-absorbed pursuits? How many wrong-headed parents give their kids birth control and let them get drunk in their own homes with the attitude that “they’ll do it anyway, we may as well try to make it safe”? How many attempt to shield their children from the realities that they will die some day, that excellence requires real effort and yet doesn’t excuse one from the rules of civilized behavior, that an arrogant appetite for risk will catch up with you, that it takes commitment to be trustworthy, that even trying hard won’t prevent every failure, that work in excess of what you happen to like is not therefore too much for you, that most worthwhile efforts do not come with a trophy or net you any applause, that sometimes there isn’t enough money even for every need, that discomfort can be borne patiently, that life is good but not fair, and so on?

Again: can we expect jellyfish to stand up and walk out of the ocean?

 

[Pray4Life]

EasterJoy, are you saying you think the presumably high number of invalid marriages is due to the kind of people our present culture is producing, when it comes to relationships (and possibly moral responsibility)? I do think a sense of personal responsibility is often regarded like something you would treat with antifungal cream now…and that is a pretty important aspect of capability for marriage.

 

[Pug]

People quote the 90% of US decrees that are overturned by Rome but nobody ever mentions how many that represents. How many times does a respondent appeal a positive decision to the Rota? I doubt that the petitioner ever does, although he/she might appeal a negative decision.

I bet it is a very specific set of nullity decrees that get appealed to the Roman Rota. These are marriages that are already ended in divorce, or else the annulment wouldn’t have been given in the first place. Petitioner is probably long gone for the respondent. So it probably takes an unusual respondent to appeal to try to get the decree of nullity overturned. That isn’t going to get their spouse back in the vast majority of instances. They are likely doing it for a different, less motivating reason. I mean, if it would get me my spouse back, I might be seriously motivated, but otherwise, . It is a lot of hassle over a long period of time just to maybe, uh, maybe to…

1. have a piece of paper that tells me what I already peacefully knew, that the marriage is really valid (why waste so many people’s time?)
2. finally know the truth of my situation, which I didn’t know before (But I never would, you see. If two different courts said two different things, I would never really feel that I positively knew. Another person might, though.)
3. make my spouse unable to marry in the Church for vindictive reasons or some complicated inheritance issue or some other unknown type issue (okay, I get that, but how many of these are there?)
4. help my spouse understand that they are still married to me for compassionate reasons (hoping that they will then not accidentally marry falsely and injure themselves by so doing. But I might wonder if this could provoke them into marrying outside the Church, and now in full knowledge / bad conscience.)
5. clear my name so that I can get employment or something (I’m imaging some other culture than the USA, I suppose, one where having an annulment in your past would haunt your career or something in a way that being divorced wouldn’t.)
6. force the Church to be honest about what is going on with annulments (I have trouble imagining my appeal having this effect, though.)
7. ???

In the contexts that I’ve seen that figure, it isn’t a figure that is saying that 90% of American annulments would be overturned by the Roman Rota if someone bothered appealing. I think around a quarter of them are basically untouchable anyway because they are granted upon defect of form. Rather, it has seemed to be a figure about those specific annulments that someone bothers appealing. As you say, these could be very few. Also, these could be very specific. I doubt people appeal in the cases where they are advised that they have no chance. I’m not sure what the 90% may mean. It is speculation without more information. I’m prone to speculate, though.