Annulments here, annulments there

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If the 1st marriage was outside of the Church then the decree of nulility would be easily granted.
If we’re still talking about my aunt, no, her first marriage, nor her second marriage, were outside of the Catholic Church. 🙂

I’m not about to ask her to see her papers. Right now, I don’t think it’s any of my business to delve into that. She’s single, staying single, and has moved this past her. I’m not about to go ruffling any feathers on this. I was simply relating her story to add to this thread.

Maybe I have unfortunately taken away from it. :o Many apologies!
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think this is what you’re pointing out. You pose an interesting question. Are you saying, that if most of the people that go through an annulment can get a decree of nullity, how many other couples out there that are happily married could, in theory, prove the same thing? Are they seen as validly married in the eyes of God when they turned out fine, but if looked into, don’t meet the criterria for a valid marriage?
I wanted to clarify your question because if this is what you’re asking it’s an interesting topic, you’re not just complaining about how common it’s becoming.
It’s interesting because the Church claims authority on the validity of marriage as it has a worldy, social aspect to it. Without checking everyone’s happy marriage to make sure of validity the question of whether or not God sees it as valid or invalid is null and void then to the Church. I do realize the Church convalidates marriage, but I don’t think it’s the same as “decree of validity” But this is just my opinion of it. This is a good philosophical thing to chew on.
I do not think that the Church sees God’s view on a marriage’s validity as being “null and void.” My feeling is that it is extraordinarily difficult with the way it looks like canon law is being applied right now (in the U.S., anyway, can’t speak for other countries) to actually enter a binding, valid marriage that can’t be annulled a few years down the road if someone changes their mind or becomes interested in someone other than their spouse and decides they made a mistake. Then something as simple as having a lustful thought during the ceremony about the maid of honor means they didn’t REALLY mean to be faithful, and off we go towards an investigation for a decree of nullity (however you spell it).

I am not denying that there are legitimate grounds for annulment or saying that ALL decrees of nullity are handed out too easily or for sketchy reasons. Not at all. There is a reason why annulments are even possible and it’s a good one. To those who wrote on here that they are seeking them right now, my prayers are with you as you seek God’s will and healing from a difficult and painful time in your lives.

However, the fact remains that many, I might even go so far as to hazard “most,” married couples could find grounds for an annulment if they looked for them. Does that mean most marriages are actually invalid, or does it mean that the law is being interpreted a little too loosely in this present time/culture when it comes to giving decrees of nullity? How can a couple know with certainty that they are “annulment proof” and TRULY committed for life as they intended to be? We should not have to go through multiple ceremonies or seek a convalidation when there is no proof of invalidity just to be “sure” we’re properly married. Is lack of proof that a marriage is invalid the same as proving that it is valid?

(So yes, I guess I am complaining about how common it is 😛 While asking, is it even possible to be validly married on the first go anymore? What do you think?)
 
However, the fact remains that many, I might even go so far as to hazard “most,” married couples could find grounds for an annulment if they looked for them. Does that mean most marriages are actually invalid, or does it mean that the law is being interpreted a little too loosely in this present time/culture when it comes to giving decrees of nullity? How can a couple know with certainty that they are “annulment proof” and TRULY committed for life as they intended to be? We should not have to go through multiple ceremonies or seek a convalidation when there is no proof of invalidity just to be “sure” we’re properly married. Is lack of proof that a marriage is invalid the same as proving that it is valid?
Since you enjoy the presumption of validity why would you question it? The question would only arise if you got a divorce which you don’t seem to be anticipating. If you feel that strongly about it, renew your vows (without your fingers crossed this time ;)).

As for a convalidation, that is only for those whose marriage is not presumed valid. That wouldn’t apply to Catholics married in the Church or outside the Church with a dispensation.
 
I’d like to add that I am creeped out by the thought that my marriage, which I’ve been so sure is valid, could nevertheless be “argued” into invalidity under the guidelines I saw and not sure if I am supposed to address that somehow.
I was freaked out when I first found out about all the things that could make a marriage invalid. It was readily clear to me how easy it *might *prove to be to prove mine was invalid. I wondered what that meant, and if I was supposed to try to get a priest to investigate it, or if I was supposed to stop trying to make it work, etc. I even wondered if we were required to try to get married all over again. It took a long time, but eventually I was mollified by that canon that someone quoted, number 1060. I accepted that they were going to presume my marriage was valid and that they were not going to investigate it unless we divorced. So, since I am not divorced, there is nothing for me to do, since I don’t have an obvious defect of form (that I currently know about) or some similar clearcut item. Since there is nothing for me to do about it, then that is that. I just live with it. I continue to try to make the marriage work, since that appears to be my obligation in the matter at this time.

If I have mistaken my obligation, well, God will have to sort it out, because my poor brain gave up trying to sort it out long ago. It does sort of leave one wondering if half of the problem is trying to live a Christian marriage without the attendant graces…but no, I said I gave up trying to sort it out long ago…

Anyway, you are not alone in having strange feelings arise because of your cognizance of annulments. If your conscience is truly troubled by specific doubts about validity, I would seek the advice of your parish priest. It might be easily (and privately) resolvable if all you need to do is renew (establish) consent. It sounds, though, more like you are generally concerned, and you don’t have a specific impediment or issue in mind.
 
Much has been made of the supposedly high number of “annulments” that are granted. However, as many have already testified to on this board, it is anything but an easy process. Many individuals have found it painful and some have even left the Church over the process even though their request was granted.

As to why there seems to be such a high rate of “success”, my guess would be that usually the only people applying are people that know they probably have a good case. And secondly, outside of Hollywood, I know of very few people who just woke up one day and decided "hey its a sunny day, why don’t I get a divorce?"
There are people who go into marriage with the “well, if it doesn’t work for me, divorce is an option” mentality. You know: “We won’t need one, of course, but it happens to people less well-matched than we are.” A lot of them, unfortunately. They don’t understand that there isn’t a match that doesn’t involve sacrifice to make a marriage of it. They not only don’t understand what marriage demands; they don’t understand what divorce demands, either.

I know that there are a lot more people than in the past marry outside the Church without proper dispensations and, unfortunately, a lot of people in our society as a whole who reach the age of consent without the maturity to give it. I don’t know if the tribunals are “too easy”, but I have witnessed way too many marriages where I wondered if even a decent marriage was a realistic possibility, because of the immaturity of one or both of the spouses. We are in a society that is permissive with regards to flaunting moral law and which believes that moral action can be discerned purely by considering one’s own feelings. A person who reaches adulthood with this attitude can’t make an honest promise any more than a jellyfish can grow a backbone and walk out of the ocean.

For the record: I am in firmly in camp that holds that “I-could-have-chosen-not-to-sin-but-did-it-anyway”, after validly making vows, is not grounds for annulment. You have to have had some experiential inkling about what marriage entails, though, some slight skill and keeping difficult commitments of some sort, before you can give informed consent.
 
This is a topic close to my heart. I would like to touch on a few key points that I have discovered. They explain both the sad state of marriage attitudes today, but also and most importantly, the joyous side of the unique Sacrament of Marriage.

Sadly, yes, there are thousands upon thousands of couples attempting marriage and ending up with invalid unions. The current attitude of the western culture is, in fact, that two, do not become one. If two do not become one, then a marriage did not occur. The numerous Declarations of Nullity merely reflect that sad fact. Our current culture devalues marriage that ever so many people attempt it without the first idea of what it is.

Even validly married people are affected by that tragic culture. So yes, many people who ever had that ‘opt out’ thought before they married, were too young and/or too ignorant to know better, or any of the many other reasons, could argue themselves to believe they are invalidly married. But here’s the good news: (and my much longer point) God is not just a bigger version of us!! He is GOD! I think many people who are concerned about, “any marriage could be argued invalid,” are forgetting a very important aspect of God’s nature. He is omniscient. He knows all.

Let’s take fictitious Tom and Becky on their wedding day. They might have ten reasons on their wedding day that might make their marriage invalid. They might be young. They might not have given enough disclosure. They might be feeling pressure from family to marry. Any one of many reasons might be present to affect their ability to consent. Key word: might.

Now let’s look at Scripture. Who does the joining? Does Scripture say, “What man has joined together, let God not put asunder?” No. Scripture says **God **does the joining, and man must not divide it. God, Himself said it! Jesus said that divorce simply doesn’t exist. When two become one, only the death of that grafted part can divide them.

So if God is all-knowing, and God does the joining, then we have good news! He binds us together based on **His **knowledge, not ours. He knows the final outcome of our choices. If a marriage is valid, it is valid from its beginning. Even if there were rocks and stumbles along the way, those two people became ***one ***from the start! If it is invalid, then a Declaration of Nullity is a true gift from the Church! It says that God Himself, never bound you to that person. You were never truly ONE.

I found that to be one of the most important points when speaking about marriage with our separated brethren. I ask them, “Where in Scripture is it even implicitly stated how to ENTER into marriage?” (Answer: It isn’t.) The closest we ever get is right around Gen 2:24. For those without your Bibles handy that is the “two become one” passage.

Basically, any two (or more) idiots can stand up and declare marriage. It doesn’t mean that God joins those idiots to make one bigger idiot. God is smarter than that. God knows marriage. He designed it “from the beginning.” He gave the authority to the *Church *to declare what it takes to *enter *marriage. He Himself elevated it to a Sacrament. He does the joining. The Church “merely” reports her findings on the joining!

A Declaration of Nullity is the formal report of a fact-finding mission.
 
I agree with the OP about reading and hearing about the extremely high numbers of “annulments” now. It bothers me, looking at my own marriage, which is perfectly valid, and knowing that it would be easy to come up with half a dozen “grounds” for a declaration of nullity.

Marriage is not that hard to enter; it is meant to be the vocation of most people. It is not that hard.

Rome overturns about 90% of the declarations of nullity that are appealed from the US, for what it is worth.
 
So if God is all-knowing, and God does the joining, then we have good news! He binds us together based on **His **knowledge, not ours. He knows the final outcome of our choices. If a marriage is valid, it is valid from its beginning. Even if there were rocks and stumbles along the way, those two people became ***one ***from the start! If it is invalid, then a Declaration of Nullity is a true gift from the Church! It says that God Himself, never bound you to that person. You were never truly ONE.
I’m trying to understand what you wish to say here, but I’m not sure I do. Let me try to state what I think you may be saying. You see that marriage is good news because God made the two to be one, so they are indeed one, and that can’t be broken. The oneness is true and real. If it happened, it really happened. Also, you see annulments as good news because they often free those particular people who are divorced and never were married. So the annulment is a gift that allows many couples to fairly surely know that they are free and never were married, so they can mentally move on. Did I get that right? 🙂
 
My wife and I received annulments. We took them seriously. They took a long time to secure. I’ll be forever grateful to the Church for granting them to us. If not for them, we would have had to convert to some other denomination, which would have been disasterous. They’re not easy to get, BTW. I waited almost three years for mine.
 
I am not addressing anyone in particular; I do not know the circumstances of anyone’s declarations of nullity, so it would be presumptuous of me. I am simply asking about generalities.

If a couple divorces, and, say, the wife remarries, then applies for a declaration of nullity, what *should *happen? Is it more important to find out the truth of the matter or to allow her to continue in the second “marriage”? (Since marriage enjoys the favor of the law, it is the second marriage which is in question, hence the quotation marks.) If the first marriage is valid, is it not then more important that she live as she ought than that she continue in the second marriage? What is more important, the second marriage or the Church?
 
I’m trying to understand what you wish to say here, but I’m not sure I do. Let me try to state what I think you may be saying. You see that marriage is good news because God made the two to be one, so they are indeed one, and that can’t be broken. The oneness is true and real. If it happened, it really happened. Also, you see annulments as good news because they often free those particular people who are divorced and never were married. So the annulment is a gift that allows many couples to fairly surely know that they are free and never were married, so they can mentally move on. Did I get that right? 🙂
Pretty much, YEP!!

I didn’t mean to go quite as far as saying that Decrees of Nullity were “good news,” but in a way they really are. What kept going through my mind was the word ‘freeing’ as I wrote it. The people I have encountered hated the whole process of annulment, but in the end felt a great weight had been lifted. They *knew *it wasn’t a marriage, and now they have the document that says so!

Our culture has such a skewed idea of marriage as a bad thing. Yet it is invalid marriages that are held as examples! Vicious cycle it perpetuates. Showing that invalid marriages lead to failure is a GOOD thing in the end. “From the start this was not a marriage…”

Showing that the numbers of *valid *marriages that end in divorce is **lower **than the number *invalid *marriages that end, is a GOOD thing. “Want to help prevent divorce from the start? Make sure you are valid going in…” It can be a good teaching tool if we use it correctly. One of the things my husband, (former Evangelical-invalidly-married, now Catholic-4th-degree-Knight-of-Columbus,) learned during his annulment process was what a marriage wasn’t. He was very willing to do every single thing the Church asked of us to prepare for a real marriage.

The same deacon who was his advocate for nullity later prepared us for marriage. In his homily at our wedding he said, “These two people are as prepared for marriage as it is possible to be.” We can still fail, but it will be due to our own choices, not invalidity. Have there been surprises that we wonder if we “consented to?” Oh yeah! But, when the going gets rough, we know why we married in the first place.
 
I am not addressing anyone in particular; I do not know the circumstances of anyone’s declarations of nullity, so it would be presumptuous of me. I am simply asking about generalities.

If a couple divorces, and, say, the wife remarries, then applies for a declaration of nullity, what *should *happen? Is it more important to find out the truth of the matter or to allow her to continue in the second “marriage”? (Since marriage enjoys the favor of the law, it is the second marriage which is in question, hence the quotation marks.) If the first marriage is valid, is it not then more important that she live as she ought than that she continue in the second marriage? What is more important, the second marriage or the Church?
Since I am so talkative this morning, I will address your questions. The Church has provisions for the situations to which you refer. I don’t have the documents handy, but I can dig them out if you really need me to. A canon lawyer would know them if this is a real life situation you would like addressed.

One of the important factors in your example is the presence of children in the second marriage attempt. People are encouraged to maintain a family structure when there are children present. She would be advised to live celibately with the second husband if the first marriage were to be found valid. If they could do so, they could even return to the Sacraments, though they would be advised to receive Communion in a place and manner to not cause scandal. I met such a couple. They had lived 20 years celibately and grew in their faith.

So yes, living a sacramental life does trump living a sexual marriage. Another GOOD thing! 👍
 
Pretty much, YEP!!

I didn’t mean to go quite as far as saying that Decrees of Nullity were “good news,” but in a way they really are. What kept going through my mind was the word ‘freeing’ as I wrote it. The people I have encountered hated the whole process of annulment, but in the end felt a great weight had been lifted. They *knew *it wasn’t a marriage, and now they have the document that says so!

Our culture has such a skewed idea of marriage as a bad thing. Yet it is invalid marriages that are held as examples! Vicious cycle it perpetuates. Showing that invalid marriages lead to failure is a GOOD thing in the end. “From the start this was not a marriage…”

Showing that the numbers of *valid *marriages that end in divorce is **lower **than the number *invalid *marriages that end, is a GOOD thing. “Want to help prevent divorce from the start? Make sure you are valid going in…” It can be a good teaching tool if we use it correctly. One of the things my husband, (former Evangelical-invalidly-married, now Catholic-4th-degree-Knight-of-Columbus,) learned during his annulment process was what a marriage wasn’t. He was very willing to do every single thing the Church asked of us to prepare for a real marriage.

The same deacon who was his advocate for nullity later prepared us for marriage. In his homily at our wedding he said, “These two people are as prepared for marriage as it is possible to be.” We can still fail, but it will be due to our own choices, not invalidity. Have there been surprises that we wonder if we “consented to?” Oh yeah! But, when the going gets rough, we know why we married in the first place.
Oh, I’m glad I asked, because you wrote an enlightening reply! I never really thought about what you are saying concerning looking at invalid marriages that failed compared to valid marriages that failed. Yes, having a valid marriage from the get go is a great way to prevent against divorce. :yup: Also, your Knight there sounds wonderful! A man who does what it takes is a true knight.
 
I am not addressing anyone in particular; I do not know the circumstances of anyone’s declarations of nullity, so it would be presumptuous of me. I am simply asking about generalities.

If a couple divorces, and, say, the wife remarries, then applies for a declaration of nullity, what *should *happen? Is it more important to find out the truth of the matter or to allow her to continue in the second “marriage”? (Since marriage enjoys the favor of the law, it is the second marriage which is in question, hence the quotation marks.) If the first marriage is valid, is it not then more important that she live as she ought than that she continue in the second marriage? What is more important, the second marriage or the Church?
That is my situation-to-be. Although my first marriage was not in the Church, since I was not yet Catholic. I mean, it was in a Lutheran church.
 
A canon lawyer would know them if this is a real life situation you would like addressed.
No, it isn’t. 😃 My husband and I have been married only to each other.

What I have difficulty grasping is not the thought that an invalidly married couple who have children should live together celibately. What I cannot fit together with the fact that most people’s vocation is marriage is the sheer number of “invalid marriages.” It makes no sense for marriage to be so difficult that most people who divorce are, in fact, invalidly married.

People are selfish; people are difficult. Marriage is under attack, and sex is readily available outside the marriage bond. None of these things, while they can make marriage harder, render a marriage attempt invalid.
 
What I have difficulty grasping is not the thought that an invalidly married couple who have children should live together celibately. What I cannot fit together with the fact that most people’s vocation is marriage is the sheer number of “invalid marriages.” It makes no sense for marriage to be so difficult that most people who divorce are, in fact, invalidly married.

People are selfish; people are difficult. Marriage is under attack, and sex is readily available outside the marriage bond. None of these things, while they can make marriage harder, render a marriage attempt invalid.
I guess to make my point clearer I can use a real life case. I was a witness for an annulment investigation. I submitted 13, typed, single spaced, pages of testimony. I was the housemate (and sibling) of one of the people prior to the marriage.

This couple, on the surface, went through the motions of preparing for a Catholic marriage. I knew otherwise. Many people thought they were a “match made in heaven.” The bride came back from their engagement retreat all smiles about how perfect they were for each other. I saw red flags everywhere. She converted and was baptized. Again, red flags on her understanding of the faith. He hadn’t been active and had a poor grasp of it himself. They were fornicating and contracepting before marriage and planned to contracept after marriage. She had trust issues she thought were resolved…more red flags. He had trust issues he knew were not resolved, red flag, but more workable. The list goes on and on.

“Everyone” thought they were the model of marriage. I cried on their wedding day. The one promise I made when they divorced was that I would not remain silent again. If a couple attempts marriage with so *many *impediments, the chances of success are very slim. It is only through a complete conversion of spirit that a couple in this case would make it.

And as I said, since God is all-knowing, He would know the outcome of their choices. I think what is important to emphasize is both the gravity and number of impediments. For example, since we know of research from NFP groups that 50% of contracepting couples divorce, regardless of religious affiliation, then contraception is likely a major impediment to marriage. Since co-habitation and fornication result in high divorce numbers, what leads to them is likely also an impediment. (Note: I was a contracepting, fornicater before marriage, so I have my own shaky ground to stand on.)

What seems to be a defining factor in my studies is the couples who discover why something is an impediment, and seek to change it, are likely the validly married ones. The couple who lives together and thinks it is no big deal is likely to divorce. The couple who sees the error of their ways and changes is likely to stay married. Whether each couple does this before the wedding or after the wedding is where the presumption of validity comes in. God already knows which couple will see the error of their ways.

I am finding that explaining this is a little like explaining the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady and how she still needs a Savior. It is something which occurs outside of time. For God, everything is now. Do validly married couples divorce? Most certainly! And for many of the reasons you state. But it still seems that there is a vicious cycle. Invalid marriages seem to influence more invalid marriages. My husband hadn’t a clue what a valid marriage looked like. His own parents had a train wreck that lasted nearly 30 years. Though they haven’t had theirs examined, you could make a list of all the impediments to marriage, close your eyes and point, and nearly guarantee a hit. His parents’ marriage was one of the impediments *we *had to overcome.
 
Ask aunt if you can see the copies of her decrees of nullity, explain that you are interested in the process and would like to see the documents.

There are times (especially in the 70’s and 80’s) when well meaning but ill informed priests have told people they “handled it” with no paperwork, and the folks have not actually had anything go through the tribunal.
Why would this be any of her concern? It’s between her aunt, the tribunal, and God.
 
Actually, as a convert from Protestantism, I was quite aware of the role God’s being outside of time plays in Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception. 👍

I suppose that we might be simply talking past each other. I am not saying that happy marriages or good marriages are easily made or maintained. I am saying that contracting valid marriages is not nearly so difficult.
 
I was wondering about the large number of annulments too. Does anyone know if requests for an annulment are ever denied?

Is there a way to annul-proof your marriage? :confused:
 
I was wondering about the large number of annulments too. Does anyone know if requests for an annulment are ever denied?

Is there a way to annul-proof your marriage? :confused:
According to a poster in another thread, “5% of divorced marriages are found valid.” :(:mad::eek:

I would be interested to see what other posters have to say about “annul-proofing” one’s marriage. I think that it ought not to be necessary. Obtaining a declaration of nullity should be a rarity.
 
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