Annulments/support group

[dans0622]

Update…

A letter came yesterday stating collection of evidence is complete, no further evidence will be accepted, and the case is entering final phases This is similar to the letter that came last June stating the case was published and there were xxx days to review it. Those days were up in early July so I’d have thought it would be further by now.

Judging by the time the time it’s taken to get to this point, I’m expecting at least 3 more months; but I’m not holding my breath. 17 months and counting…it’s very disappointing and frustrating. The published average is 12 months. All evidence was easily obtained and returned quickly, so I’d have expected it to be closer to the average time.

People stopped asking when the wedding is about 6 months ago.

Is the other Party involved in the process? That’s the best reason I can think of for such a delay in the publication phase.

It looks like now the case has been “concluded” and the Defender of the Bond will make observations. Time limits can be a bit meaningless but, for me, I have 10 days to make observations. Advocates are also given 10 days to write a brief. After the observations/briefs are completed, the case finally goes to the Judge to await his decision…

Dan

 

[weaverbird]

Is the other Party involved in the process? That’s the best reason I can think of for such a delay in the publication phase.

It looks like now the case has been “concluded” and the Defender of the Bond will make observations. Time limits can be a bit meaningless but, for me, I have 10 days to make observations. Advocates are also given 10 days to write a brief. After the observations/briefs are completed, the case finally goes to the Judge to await his decision…

Dan

How long does the judge have to make their decision and publicise the sentence, Dan?

I called on the 28th of Dec and was told they were waiting for the defender of the bonds breif.

 

[dans0622]

How long does the judge have to make their decision and publicise the sentence, Dan? …

That’s actually not clearly defined in the procedural law. The Judge is supposed to publish the sentence within 30 days of deciding the case (see canon 1610.3). How long, though, should it take for him to decide the case? That’s not defined.

In theory, some tribunals give about 30 working days after all the briefs are completed. In practice, who knows. That’s not a very helpful answer but…it’s about the best I can do.

Dan

 

[AnchoredInHope]

I hope some potential good news and wanted to share and ask for prayers.

Going into RCIA I was never 100% certain about my ex spouses baptismal status as I knew his mother was a lapsed Catholic. I attempted to contact my ex prior to my meeting with the deacon to ask if he was or was not but was ignored. The deacon of course explained that we would have to continue on assumption that he was not since we couldn’t ascertain this information since my ex never participated in church when I knew him and had no information to go off of. That got my stubbornness up and I contacted just about every church in this diocese with no luck. I then remembered his mother grew up north of here and I left a voicemail with that diocese pleading for any help they could offer me. I got an email reply within an hour from an archives department with a parish name and instructions to contact that parish for his baptismal records

I immediately called the parish and explained who I was to my ex and that I was looking to confirm if he was baptized there. The person either didn’t understand or seemed suspicious. She seemed better after I told her I understood she couldn’t release records to me personally and that she do so to my deacon. She asked for his name and parish and told me she would check. I asked her to call and let me know either way but I haven’t heard back. Will the deacon need to likely call himself instead of a lay person to get this done? I’m on pins and needles.

How long is a reasonable time to wait? And what does this mean for my annulment process–is it a different process entirely and what kind of challenges could I anticipate??

 

[dans0622]

…
How long is a reasonable time to wait? And what does this mean for my annulment process–is it a different process entirely and what kind of challenges could I anticipate??

If a person is a baptized Catholic, he has to marry “in the Church.” If he doesn’t, the attempted marriage is not presumed to be valid by the Church. The “process” in such cases is very short and simple: all it does is show the person’s baptismal status, lack of notation of marriage in the baptismal register, and show who witnessed the marriage (which should be on the civil record).

Challenges? There aren’t any if all the documentation is obtained and shows what you want it to show.

As far as how long to wait for a response–yes, I suppose a deacon or priest or tribunal personnel would more quickly receive an answer…

Dan

 

[Guineviere]

Is the other Party involved in the process? That’s the best reason I can think of for such a delay in the publication phase.
Dan

Yes. The other party submitted everything needed quickly and said she didn’t wish to be notified of the progress. All witness submitted their answers quickly as well. Nothing held up the process on our end. All witness testimony was submitted last February.

 

[AnchoredInHope]

If a person is a baptized Catholic, he has to marry “in the Church.” If he doesn’t, the attempted marriage is not presumed to be valid by the Church. The “process” in such cases is very short and simple: all it does is show the person’s baptismal status, lack of notation of marriage in the baptismal register, and show who witnessed the marriage (which should be on the civil record).

Challenges? There aren’t any if all the documentation is obtained and shows what you want it to show.

As far as how long to wait for a response–yes, I suppose a deacon or priest or tribunal personnel would more quickly receive an answer…

Dan

Thank you, Dan. Everyone in this forum is such a blessing. I WAS able to verify that my former spouse was baptized as a Catholic and the parish has agreed to send a copy to the deacon who was going to handle my formal annulment. I am still glad that I was able to complete the questionairre for the case because it really proved to be a spiritual exercise for me.

I’m not out the woods yet but I am hopeful that I may able to celebrate Confirmation and Eucharist with the rest of my RCIA group in Easter. I am on fire to be able to receive Communion and is my entire motivation driving me and keeping me going. <3

 

[weaverbird]

Yes. The other party submitted everything needed quickly and said she didn’t wish to be notified of the progress. All witness submitted their answers quickly as well. Nothing held up the process on our end. All witness testimony was submitted last February.

I’d be annoyed as all get-out at this point. What’s the hold up? Can you call and ask whats holding up the case like this?

 

[weaverbird]

If a person is a baptized Catholic, he has to marry “in the Church.” If he doesn’t, the attempted marriage is not presumed to be valid by the Church. The “process” in such cases is very short and simple: all it does is show the person’s baptismal status, lack of notation of marriage in the baptismal register, and show who witnessed the marriage (which should be on the civil record).

Challenges? There aren’t any if all the documentation is obtained and shows what you want it to show.

As far as how long to wait for a response–yes, I suppose a deacon or priest or tribunal personnel would more quickly receive an answer…

Dan

Dan, when the judge(s) go to make their decision, will they utilize both the formal transcribed document (the one that was published to us to view and edit, during publication of the acts) AS WELL as the origional questionaires from myself and my ex husband? Or do they just use the typed, transcription created by the tribunal staff, which seems to be only info that they deem pertenant to the case’s ground that was established.

Also, when it comes to the actual publication of the sentence, will the sentence use words like “affiramtive” or “negative”? Ive tried looking online for an example of a “sentence” letter to get an idea of what id be reading while im sweating bullets and shaking like a leaf at the sharp turn the next 50 years of my life is going to take…im PRAYING HARD for an affirmative…

 

[dans0622]

Dan, when the judge(s) go to make their decision, will they utilize both the formal transcribed document (the one that was published to us to view and edit, during publication of the acts) AS WELL as the origional questionaires from myself and my ex husband? Or do they just use the typed, transcription created by the tribunal staff, which seems to be only info that they deem pertenant to the case’s ground that was established.

Also, when it comes to the actual publication of the sentence, will the sentence use words like “affiramtive” or “negative”? Ive tried looking online for an example of a “sentence” letter to get an idea of what id be reading while im sweating bullets and shaking like a leaf at the sharp turn the next 50 years of my life is going to take…im PRAYING HARD for an affirmative…

Hello,

The information in the published Acts should be all that the Judge uses in coming to a decision. Whatever was “left out” of the actual testimony was considered to be unimportant or impertinent so, consequently, it would not need to be mentioned in the Sentence.

As for the Sentence, I think the use of “affirmative/negative” is pretty universal. There may be some other legalese here and there but…hopefully, it is understandable for a “layperson.” If you want to get high-level Sentences, with more canon law than you may ever want to see, a retired Roman Rota judge has some of his own Sentences online at: cormacburke.or.ke/taxonomy/term/2

If you go there, you will see quite a few Sentences. You can take a look. Again, those are “high level” and are more academic and difficult for the ordinary person to follow. If you can wade your way through one of those, you will be able to make sense out of whatever your local tribunal produces.

Dan

 

[AnchoredInHope]

Also, when it comes to the actual publication of the sentence, will the sentence use words like “affiramtive” or “negative”? Ive tried looking online for an example of a “sentence” letter to get an idea of what id be reading while im sweating bullets and shaking like a leaf at the sharp turn the next 50 years of my life is going to take…im PRAYING HARD for an affirmative…

Praying for you!

 

[weaverbird]

Praying for you!

Thank you! And thank you too Dan!

Is the sentence going to be long and drawn out as those that were listed on that page? Going into our back history, stating the ground and the ruling? Is it gonna be an essay of a draft to read? Or simply, a paragraph or so?

 

[dans0622]

Thank you! And thank you too Dan!

Is the sentence going to be long and drawn out as those that were listed on that page? Going into our back history, stating the ground and the ruling? Is it gonna be an essay of a draft to read? Or simply, a paragraph or so?

Every Sentence has to have three, basic sections: the facts of the case (ages, dates, places, names…), legal principles (related to the grounds and maybe some procedural matters) and then the argument (explaining the reasons for the decision). At the end, you’ll see actual decision (affirmative or negative).

Rotal Sentences are supposed to be guides for other Tribunals so they tend to be longer. Lower tribunal Sentences are not usually as long as a typical, Rotal Sentence but…it depends on the particular case and Judge.

Dan

 

[Convert1]

As I have said before, there is no requirement for a process to take that long and, actually, it never should take that long. A process should be completed within one year, maximum. And even that length of time is quite “generous.”

“Seriousness” is not the reason for a 16 month process, it seems to me. All of us involved in these cases can be appropriately “serious” and still process cases a lot faster than that. Most of the time, the reason for that kind of delay is a lack of personnel in the Tribunal. Cases sit for months, awaiting the Judges decision (as someone else just mentioned in this thread).

Other than a lack of Judges who can get the work done (in fairness, most of the Judges are priests who have parish responsibilities, etc.), most delays come in the “investigation” phase of the trial: Parties or witnesses are not too rapid in responding to the tribunal’s requests for information.

I put an article up on my blog a while back about how long the process should take: anotherbrickinthelaw.blogspot.com/2014/10/how-long-must-annulment-take.html

There have been some changes (at the direction of the Pope) since I wrote that but the basics are still the same.

Dan

Thanks, Dan. You have really hung in there and supported folks since I entered this forum a year ago. (4 months after my case was accepted.) I mentioned earlier in my posts that the case closed for judgment last April '15. It has sat on some judges desk for 9 months. It is hard to face the mailbox every day, anticipating another disappointment.
But I do truly thank you for answering all my questions and listening to frustrations. Your devotion to this forum, that I have witnessed, has been priceless.

 

[Convert1]

Also, when it comes to the actual publication of the sentence, will the sentence use words like “affiramtive” or “negative”? Ive tried looking online for an example of a “sentence” letter to get an idea of what id be reading while im sweating bullets and shaking like a leaf at the sharp turn the next 50 years of my life is going to take…im PRAYING HARD for an affirmative…

Praying for you, as well. Your description of your potential reaction to the future letter sounds all too familiar! I too have looked online and even read my husband’s annulment letter over and over to see what it may feel like. (He received his last September even though we submitted at the same time) Maybe if we all pray together really hard, we will all be blessed with the “affirmative” They say there’s strength in numbers.

 

[weaverbird]

Praying for you, as well. Your description of your potential reaction to the future letter sounds all too familiar! I too have looked online and even read my husband’s annulment letter over and over to see what it may feel like. (He received his last September even though we submitted at the same time) Maybe if we all pray together really hard, we will all be blessed with the “affirmative” They say there’s strength in numbers.

I sure hope so!
A little of my current story and feelings on this matter: its long but bear with me lol
Im desiring to remarry so thats why im hoping for an “affirmative” and can honestly say Ive been scouring the internet for over a year, looking at posts and statistics of the rate of affirmatives that are granted. My case was accepted so im hoping thats indicative of a high chance??
Ive got a wonderful man that im currently getting to know as freinds and has been waiting with me for my ruling, for the past 6 months. He seems to be everything ive hoped for and needed in a mate and I pray that I wont have to leave him. I wouldnt understand why God brought such a compatible and virtuous man in my life at all, just to take him away, while im sure my husband would have difficulty walking away from the love of his life, after 11 years of desiring her (Theyre currently dating).

I truly dont believe my current marriage to be valid; it was quite dysfuntional from early on in our dating relationship…which started 5 days after meeting each other, over 11 years ago at 18 and 19 years old. He was my first “serious” relationship and after so many years of dating it became comfortable, familiar …and more and more like friends. There was no substance to our relatinship and Lord knows, God was NOT the center. The relationship was infested with his lies, manipulation and 2 occasions of cheating (which he kept from me until 4 months post marriage…then cheated again during marriage)
Our realtionship was long distance most of the time and I became very attached to his family (mine was quite dysfuntional and my homelife was a bit lacking in entertainment). His family was active and cared for me like a mom and dad. Also, I didnt want to go back home, I didnt have a career at that time and being that we cohabitated, a breakup would have meant I would have to pack up everything and go back to living at home and lose the connection to his family as well as the familiarity of our relationship. The thought of what a breakup would do was unsettling and kept me from allowing myself to acknowledge the trainwreck that I was in and acting accordingly. I hid behind denile of sorts, thinking, maybe when hes older things will change, maybe if I did more of this or that, maybe marriage will help? After 6 years of dating, we married. Our relationship was long and it seemed to be the next “step” being that it didnt seem wed ever break up. I believe I was more in lve with the IDEA of marriage at the time and didnt truly know what I was really getting into. I was more excited about the events of the wedding day (cake, food, family, fun) rather than the fact that I was marrying my husband. It felt like just another day, nothing special, only now the relationship was more “official”.
Just over 4 years and 1 sweet baby later, we divorced. Our case was accepted under canon 1095 “Lack of descretion of judgement” (sp?)

I really have no idea what id do with my life if its “negative”. Ive got my daughter, but being a mother is only part of what my heart is made for. Marriage is a massive part of who I am and I desire to have one in its best form; and founded in God, for sure.
So although I am hoping for a particular ruling, its really hard not to with my heart being the way it is on marriage and my concience feeling the way it does about my current marriage. I only pray that myself and my ex husband (whos been just as active in this case as I am) have honestly portrayed our relationship as best we could, and that they see as much as we do, how foolish it was to get married.

 

[weaverbird]

Every Sentence has to have three, basic sections: the facts of the case (ages, dates, places, names…), legal principles (related to the grounds and maybe some procedural matters) and then the argument (explaining the reasons for the decision). At the end, you’ll see actual decision (affirmative or negative).

Rotal Sentences are supposed to be guides for other Tribunals so they tend to be longer. Lower tribunal Sentences are not usually as long as a typical, Rotal Sentence but…it depends on the particular case and Judge.

Dan

In the event of an affirmative ruling, would that ruling take effect as soon as the sentence is published? Both myself and my ex would be free to date as of then? I know if It’s affirmative, neither myself nor my ex would appeal it; we’re both hoping to get this. But I think I read Somewhere that there’s a period of time that’s allowed, for the defender to appeal the ruling. Does this time have to pass before we’d be considered single?

 

[dans0622]

…But I think I read Somewhere that there’s a period of time that’s allowed, for the defender to appeal the ruling. Does this time have to pass before we’d be considered single?

Yes, a period of 15 days is given for the purpose of allowing for an appeal. If those days pass with no appeal, then the Sentence is “executed” and the persons involved can lawfully act based upon what the Sentence determines. That’s the strict, “by the book” way to look at it.

Dan

 

[Convert1]

I sure hope so!

I really have no idea what id do with my life if its “negative”. Ive got my daughter, but being a mother is only part of what my heart is made for. Marriage is a massive part of who I am and I desire to have one in its best form; and founded in God, for sure.
So although I am hoping for a particular ruling, its really hard not to with my heart being the way it is on marriage and my concience feeling the way it does about my current marriage. I only pray that myself and my ex husband (whos been just as active in this case as I am) have honestly portrayed our relationship as best we could, and that they see as much as we do, how foolish it was to get married.

It feels cathartic to tell your story, doesn’t it? Almost all of us have done it on this forum. Just a couple of questions, which you may have posted and I missed:
What religious affiliation are you? Is he?
Did you marry in a church? If so which one?

Assuming your witnesses support the facts you listed (especially the cheating prior to the marriage) your case sounds strong to me. Of course, I am just a lay person who’s only listened to a 100 people who have gone through this during my own research, and the fact that I have actually gone through the process myself. Make sure you work closely with your advocate. If they are attentive, they can be very helpful I have talked to folks with good ones and bad ones. And of course, those like mine…so, so. If they are good, they have a great deal of insight to the dynamics of the Tribunal and how things flow, which always makes things less stressful. Canon lawyers, like Dan can be extremely helpful should you need one. You can find one via the web, or your priest can recommend one.

God Bless You. Stay strong.

 

[weaverbird]

It feels cathartic to tell your story, doesn’t it? Almost all of us have done it on this forum. Just a couple of questions, which you may have posted and I missed:
What religious affiliation are you? Is he?
Did you marry in a church? If so which one?

Assuming your witnesses support the facts you listed (especially the cheating prior to the marriage) your case sounds strong to me. Of course, I am just a lay person who’s only listened to a 100 people who have gone through this during my own research, and the fact that I have actually gone through the process myself. Make sure you work closely with your advocate. If they are attentive, they can be very helpful I have talked to folks with good ones and bad ones. And of course, those like mine…so, so. If they are good, they have a great deal of insight to the dynamics of the Tribunal and how things flow, which always makes things less stressful. Canon lawyers, like Dan can be extremely helpful should you need one. You can find one via the web, or your priest can recommend one.

God Bless You. Stay strong.

I got affirmative!!!