Annulments vs Divorce

[josephdaniel29]

Some people think it is just a matter of semantics and nothing else.

When, according to modern Church practice almost any marriage can be annulled, yes it is semantics.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[davidv]

When, according to modern Church practice almost any marriage can be annulled, yes it is semantics.

Yours in Christ
Joe

A valid marriage is a marriage forever, as God designed. The Church does not and cannot declare such a marriage null.

As other posters have commented. a significant number of unions are entered into that are not valid. As people come to their senses and really find out the truth, many find that they have been living in pretend marriages. Then desiring to be reconciled to God and the Church they petition the tribunal for a ruling.

 

[josephdaniel29]

We have not been doing enough education in the sacraments, especially marriage and what is and is not moral behavior, for the average Catholic to understand the nature of the sacrament.

My friend, grounds for annulment are so liberal that it would practically require both partners to have a doctorate in sacramental theology to be sufficiently informed to have an annulment proof® marriage.

That is of course if there are no defects in intent, such as momentary cold feet or if you felt pressure because your parents really liked the guy.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[mardukm]

There have been many abuses in this area. There are tens of thousands of annulments granted in the US–more than in any other country. We have had a divorced priest and also a divorced and annulled deacon who was married for decades and had five children and yet claimed to not have lived the sacrament? And MANY who come to the church have previous marriages and so you ‘just get an annulment’. I have been a sponsor. One couple had 4 previous marriages to be annulled for example and, of course, they all were. And one lady was nervous because when her husband met another woman he liked better he told her that all he had to do was ‘just get an annulment’ and he did and married the newer and better Mrs.; there was nothign she could do to stop the ending of her marriage.

That final sentence has got to be a lie - either your friend was lying, or she misunderstood, or perhaps you misunderstood what she said. The fact is, an annulment cannot be obtained unless BOTH PARTIES AGREE or, after a certain period of time (I think it is 3 months), one party does not respond to the Church’s inquiries, and the silence is regarded as approval.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[josephdaniel29]

A valid marriage is a marriage forever, as God designed. The Church does not and cannot declare such a marriage null.

As other posters have commented. a significant number of unions are entered into that are not valid. As people come to their senses and really find out the truth, many find that they have been living in pretend marriages. Then desiring to be reconciled to God and the Church they petition the tribunal for a ruling.

So Orthodox couple (A) gets married, has two children and lives as a married couple for ten years. The husband has an affair and the wife leaves him. She files for and is granted both a civil and ecclesiastical divorce. They both go on to remarry.

Transplant that same couple (A) to the Catholic Church. Exact same circumstances except the woman files for and is granted an annulment instead of an ecclesiastical divorce. Same couple, same circumstances, same outcome. The only difference is we call it two different things i.e. semantics.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[davidv]

So Orthodox couple (A) gets married, has two children and lives as a married couple for ten years. The husband has an affair and the wife leaves him. She files for and is granted both a civil and ecclesiastical divorce. They both go on to remarry.

Transplant that same couple (A) to the Catholic Church. Exact same circumstances except the woman files for and is granted an annulment instead of an ecclesiastical divorce. Same couple, same circumstances, same outcome. The only difference is we call it two different things i.e. semantics.

Yours in Christ
Joe

Was the original marriage valid in either case?

 

[sidbrown]

So Orthodox couple (A) gets married, has two children and lives as a married couple for ten years. The husband has an affair and the wife leaves him. She files for and is granted both a civil and ecclesiastical divorce. They both go on to remarry.

Transplant that same couple (A) to the Catholic Church. Exact same circumstances except the woman files for and is granted an annulment instead of an ecclesiastical divorce. Same couple, same circumstances, same outcome. The only difference is we call it two different things i.e. semantics.

Yours in Christ
Joe

It is semantics, but in a sense the semantics of the Orthodox Church does appear to have something worthy of note. In the Orthodox Church it is a sin to get a divorce, whereas, I don;t see that it is emphasized in the Catholic Church that it would be a sin to get a marriage annulment. I don’t know if it is or if it is not a sin to get an annulment in the Catholic Church?

 

[sidbrown]

That final sentence has got to be a lie - either your friend was lying, or she misunderstood, or perhaps you misunderstood what she said. The fact is, an annulment cannot be obtained unless BOTH PARTIES AGREE or, after a certain period of time (I think it is 3 months), one party does not respond to the Church’s inquiries, and the silence is regarded as approval.

Blessings,
Marduk

There was a famous case where Joseph Kennedy was granted an annulment over the serious objections of his wife, and in fact the wife wrote a book about it?

 

[josephdaniel29]

Was the original marriage valid in either case?

If literally any marriage can be declared invalid what difference does it make?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[josephdaniel29]

It is semantics, but in a sense the semantics of the Orthodox Church does appear to have something worthy of note. In the Orthodox Church it is a sin to get a divorce, whereas, I don;t see that it is emphasized in the Catholic Church that it would be a sin to get a marriage annulment.

If fact it is a grave sin that often results in the temporary excommunication of both parties and may result in the refusal of the right of one of the parties to remarry.

I don’t know if it is or if it is not a sin to get an annulment in the Catholic Church?

I don’t know either but if it is not that seems like a serious issue to me.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[DCNBILL]

It is semantics, but in a sense the semantics of the Orthodox Church does appear to have something worthy of note. In the Orthodox Church it is a sin to get a divorce, whereas, I don;t see that it is emphasized in the Catholic Church that it would be a sin to get a marriage annulment. I don’t know if it is or if it is not a sin to get an annulment in the Catholic Church?

Please note that in the Catholic Church an annulment can only be considered after a civil divorce decree has already been established. The nullity of a marriage is based on canon law as it pertains to the validity of the marriage. To apply for an annulment is not a sin nor is it a sin for the Church to grant one, it is a decision as to if there was in fact a sacramental marrage or not in the first place. Note thate there is a pretty long list of impediments to marriage that would make a sacramental marriage impossible.

Peace,

Bill

 

[sidbrown]

Please note that in the Catholic Church an annulment can only be considered after a civil divorce decree has already been established. The nullity of a marriage is based on canon law as it pertains to the validity of the marriage. To apply for an annulment is not a sin nor is it a sin for the Church to grant one, it is a decision as to if there was in fact a sacramental marrage or not in the first place. Note thate there is a pretty long list of impediments to marriage that would make a sacramental marriage impossible.

Peace,

Bill

So to recap, it is not a sin for a Catholic to get a civil divorce as required by the tribunal before any hearings take place, and it is not a sin for a Catholic to get a marriage annulment?
If this is true, then it looks like it might differ from the teaching of the Orthodox Church.

 

[davidv]

If literally any marriage can be declared invalid what difference does it make?

Yours in Christ
Joe

Marriages are not “declared” to be invalid. A marriage is valid, or not, based on the circumstances at the time of the presumed marriage, not on any future action. Any investigation discovers if they are or not.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Marriages are not “declared” to be invalid. A marriage is valid, or not, based on the circumstances at the time of the presumed marriage, not on any future action. Any investigation discovers if they are or not.

Well then practically no Catholic married today is in a sacramental marriage (it’s ok though because they don’t actually realize they’re not really married ). Since a sacramental marriage requires perfect consent/intent, and no human being is perfect, then it’s pretty much impossible for a sacramental marriage to occur.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[mardukm]

There was a famous case where Joseph Kennedy was granted an annulment over the serious objections of his wife, and in fact the wife wrote a book about it?

Along with an exhortation from the Vatican against the ease with which Amercian Catholics seem to be able to get an annulment, a Vatican tribunal overturned the annulment of Joe Kennedy – I believe it was in 2007.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Marriages are not “declared” to be invalid. A marriage is valid, or not, based on the circumstances at the time of the presumed marriage, not on any future action. Any investigation discovers if they are or not.

Well then practically no Catholic married today is in a sacramental marriage (it’s ok though because they don’t actually realize they’re not really married ). Since a sacramental marriage requires perfect consent/intent, and no human being is perfect, then it’s pretty much impossible for a sacramental marriage to occur.

Yours in Christ
Joe

Joe
It seems you’re frustrated. Actually most couples do marry and remain married. The statistics are actually misunderstood because a few people divorce often (every problem) and these divorces are counted as though randomly occurring. To most the marriage is not random. Additionally, when you look at marriage as a function of age (maturity) you will find even more do it right.

 

[davidv]

Well then practically no Catholic married today is in a sacramental marriage

On what basis do you claim this? Can you cite any scientific studies to support such a claim?

(it’s ok though because they don’t actually realize they’re not really married ). Since a sacramental marriage requires perfect consent/intent, and no human being is perfect, then it’s pretty much impossible for a sacramental marriage to occur.

Yours in Christ
Joe

This is not true. Perfection is not required.

Also please stop confusing sacramental marriages with valid marriages. Nullity is concerned with validity not sacramentality.

 

[josephdaniel29]

On what basis do you claim this? Can you cite any scientific studies to support such a claim?

This is not true. Perfection is not required.

Well if perfection is not achieved then an annulment can be granted.

Also please stop confusing sacramental marriages with valid marriages. Nullity is concerned with validity not sacramentality.

How can a person not be confused? The Church makes it incredibly convoluted and confusing.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother josephdaniel,

Well if perfection is not achieved then an annulment can be granted.

Your argument is not making any sense. No Catholic here has claimed that perfection is a requirement for a valid marriage. ONLY YOU. You try to base an argument on something that Catholics never claimed.

How can a person not be confused? The Church makes it incredibly convoluted and confusing.

With all due respect, I think you have confused yourself.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[josephdaniel29]

Dear brother josephdaniel,

Your argument is not making any sense. No Catholic here has claimed that perfection is a requirement for a valid marriage. ONLY YOU. You try to base an argument on something that Catholics never claimed.

With all due respect, I think you have confused yourself.

Blessings,
Marduk

Have you ever been involved in an annulment? I have and I know the grounds on which annulments are granted and I know what the priest who advised me said. If any minor defect in intent or understanding, such as not truly understanding the nature of marriage, can be used to declare a marriage null then what other conclusion am I supposed to come to other than perfect intent and knowledge are required?

Yours in Christ
Joe