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rinnie
Guest
I thought she said that he was on drugs before they were married but she did not know it?
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Spirithound
Guest
No, annulments do not “make a marriage null”. The proper phrase is “declaration of nullity”, which declares that a marriage never existed. There does not need to be sin involved in a declaration of nullity.
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BrushedByAngels
Guest
I was told by my priest before he left to go back to Italy, not to marry my husband who is now my ex. This was after we had just completed our FOCUS and premarital counseling. My ex-husband committed adultery with numerous women and liked to party in strip clubs.
I always wonder if my priest sensed something not right and I can’t help to wonder why we were allowed to get married in the catholic nuptial mass in the first place.
After all, our priest left to go back to Italy and then months later we were married by the new priest. 
I knew at the time of our nuptial mass that I would most likely be cheated on but I went ahead with it anyway, hoping he would settle down. He was quite the playboy and still is from what I gather…
Anyway, having said this, I wonder if my marriage was valid?
I always wonder if my priest sensed something not right and I can’t help to wonder why we were allowed to get married in the catholic nuptial mass in the first place. After all, our priest left to go back to Italy and then months later we were married by the new priest. I knew at the time of our nuptial mass that I would most likely be cheated on but I went ahead with it anyway, hoping he would settle down. He was quite the playboy and still is from what I gather…
Anyway, having said this, I wonder if my marriage was valid?
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Trader
Guest
A declaration of nullity is the end of a juridical process. It is not doctrine, but it is based on the Church’s constant teaching on the nature of man and of the sacrament of Matrimony. Natural marriage already existed before Jesus elevated it to a sacrament. See Matthew, chapter 19. (Sorry, but I never learned to quote verse numbers. It won’t hurt anyone to read the whole chapter.
)
Just like civil law, canon law is widely misunderstood by those without formal training. It did not help that when I was in the seminary and dodging dinosaurs, there was a canon forbidding the translation of canon law. The law was given in Latin and there were English commentaries on Canon Law, but the Church was so worried about faulty translations that you were not allowed to rely on them. That is not completely crazy. Just yesterday there was a news story about faulty translations of the youth catechism.
It took me four years to receive my declaration of nullity. My diocese had a local law requiring a six month waiting period after a civil divorce. We also had a problem because the municipal judge who presided at trial got fired for non-feasance and required documents were not available. By the time those documents were available, the documents of the therapist had been archived and some tests had to be repeated.
Another problem with understanding the process is that participants are required to take an oath of secrecy not to disclose their testimony until after the process is finished. This is done for the good of the parties and in the interests of justice and charity, but it also means that if you do know someone that has gone through the process, you probably do not know the details.
Another common error is the simple statement that the declaration of nullity allows you to marry again. Not exactly–the declaration only removes the impediment of prior marriage. It does not fix the underlying problem that was the basis for the annulment. If your marriage was found void because of mental illness, and you are still ill, any subsequent marriage would also be invalid.
With the proper proof marriages can be found invalid for lack of form or lack of matter, just like any other sacrament. Both proper matter and proper form are required for validity. The Church has a lot of flexibility with the form of a sacrament, but not the matter. For matirimony the matter can be expressed in the catechism as (3) in consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another and be open to children; In the old days these were called the three good of marriage. The church has no authority to change them, so modern deviations like trial marriage, open marriage, or the intention to frustrate the good purpose of the marriage act, ie. fertility, would always be invalidating for the sacrament.
If you can prove beyond doubt that one or both of the parties lacked one of those orange elements, a declaration of nullity will be granted. If you cannot prove a required element of form or matter was missing at the time of the wedding, the marriage is assumed to be sacramental and no one has the power to dissolve what God has joined.
)Just like civil law, canon law is widely misunderstood by those without formal training. It did not help that when I was in the seminary and dodging dinosaurs, there was a canon forbidding the translation of canon law. The law was given in Latin and there were English commentaries on Canon Law, but the Church was so worried about faulty translations that you were not allowed to rely on them. That is not completely crazy. Just yesterday there was a news story about faulty translations of the youth catechism.
It took me four years to receive my declaration of nullity. My diocese had a local law requiring a six month waiting period after a civil divorce. We also had a problem because the municipal judge who presided at trial got fired for non-feasance and required documents were not available. By the time those documents were available, the documents of the therapist had been archived and some tests had to be repeated.
Another problem with understanding the process is that participants are required to take an oath of secrecy not to disclose their testimony until after the process is finished. This is done for the good of the parties and in the interests of justice and charity, but it also means that if you do know someone that has gone through the process, you probably do not know the details.
Another common error is the simple statement that the declaration of nullity allows you to marry again. Not exactly–the declaration only removes the impediment of prior marriage. It does not fix the underlying problem that was the basis for the annulment. If your marriage was found void because of mental illness, and you are still ill, any subsequent marriage would also be invalid.
With the proper proof marriages can be found invalid for lack of form or lack of matter, just like any other sacrament. Both proper matter and proper form are required for validity. The Church has a lot of flexibility with the form of a sacrament, but not the matter. For matirimony the matter can be expressed in the catechism as (3) in consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another and be open to children; In the old days these were called the three good of marriage. The church has no authority to change them, so modern deviations like trial marriage, open marriage, or the intention to frustrate the good purpose of the marriage act, ie. fertility, would always be invalidating for the sacrament.
If you can prove beyond doubt that one or both of the parties lacked one of those orange elements, a declaration of nullity will be granted. If you cannot prove a required element of form or matter was missing at the time of the wedding, the marriage is assumed to be sacramental and no one has the power to dissolve what God has joined.
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Spirithound
Guest
Only the marriage tribunal can tell you this. However, it seems to me that one spouse not intending to remain faithful is not something that the other spouse is empowered to overlook and thus form a valid marriage. It goes beyond the previous example of one spouse who hides his drug addiction, because drugs do not intrinsically relate to marriage, while faithfulness does.I knew at the time of our nuptial mass that I would most likely be cheated on but I went ahead with it anyway, hoping he would settle down. He was quite the playboy and still is from what I gather…
Anyway, having said this, I wonder if my marriage was valid?
B
BrushedByAngels
Guest
Thank-you for your response.
If you ask my ex (I remember what he said to one of our priests when we were considering reconciling after our divorce) he will say he realized how bad he screwed up by cheating on me with numerous woman and hurting me so much, that he tried to be faithful but had no self control, and he is very sorry. When I saw him shed a tear in front of the priest, I actually believed it… until after a while I saw how things were always going to be the same.
I do not know what truly is in his heart because I am not him, but if he is/was trying to be faithful he doesn’t have any self control whatsoever! He still likes the strip clubs and the bachelor lifestyle so at our age I don’t think he will ever change. Its sad because we actually are good friends and get along very well. Knowing that he sleeps around so much I know I could never have sexaul relations withhim ever again. Its a turn-off and was when we were married. The more he would cheat I would turn away. Maybe I am to blame that our marriage didn’t work out. It was just very hard to have sex with your hubby that cheats and lies to you. It can really divide a marriage, yet somehow I feel if I would have just made myself ‘look the other way – turn the other cheek’ and accept it then we’d still be married today I always felt since we had the nuptial mass that is was a valid sacrament. Maybe it never was Sorry so long.
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Spirithound
Guest
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rinnie
Guest
Well my dear I have some great news for you. It don’t matter. All you have to do is go to the Priest, ask him to forgive your sins, and get yourself back into the grace of God.Thank-you for your response.
If you ask my ex (I remember what he said to one of our priests when we were considering reconciling after our divorce) he will say he realized how bad he screwed up by cheating on me with numerous woman and hurting me so much, that he tried to be faithful but had no self control, and he is very sorry. When I saw him shed a tear in front of the priest, I actually believed it… until after a while I saw how things were always going to be the same.
Sorry so long.
That is what is so wonderful about our Church. Christ gave the leaders of it to speak in his name and give us forgiveness for our sins.
With Christ the past is the Past and the future is today. There is no sin Christ did not die for that you cannot be forgiven for. So while I can’t judge I can teach what I was taught.
Go to his Church, do a good confession, pour out your heart and let the Holy Spirit take over. I will pray for you at Church tonight. God Bless You.
Personally I don’t think it was your fault because you cannot blame yourself for the sin of others. But rather you helped him by ignoring it, who knows? Only God. ANd he is a forgiving God. He loves you so much.
How much? Enough to die for you and your sins, so they can be forgiven. Thats a pretty Awesome God!
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rinnie
Guest
Plus from what she says the man has never changed. Simply because he won’t. Sometimes we feel we can change someone. And it seems to me she is one of these people (like my Mother) who thinks they should take on the worlds problems.
IF she was guilty of anything it was to love too much and feel that her love could change him. And unfortunately as strong and good as Love is, Change comes from God not our Love for that person.
If she is guilty of anything its being human and kind and blind. But she overcame that when she opened her eyes. SHe quit acceping his sin, and thats a good thing.
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rinnie
Guest
Exactly there are many reasons. Sometimes its just people not understanding what a Catholic Sacrament of Marriage and what is expected of them. But the Church is getting better at education also. And thats a good thing.
No because Education wasn’t needed before, but before more people understood the bond and Sacrament of Marriage. Back when if both were not Catholic they could not even marry in the Church etc. Heck many would not even consider it.
BUt times have changed and more issues are at hand and need to be addressed. But the sacrament of Marriage never has in the RCC. Can’t!
Until Jesus comes back and changes it.
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BrushedByAngels
Guest
Yes, I was dumb and naive at 21 yrs old… At 35 when he said he had changed I believed him but I quickly saw he had not; by some of his words and actions that were subtle clues I picked up on. We are still good friends and we get along great but it would be difficult living with him.
So… sometimes I feel God wants me to be single and celibate. I am very happy now, but maybe someday when I retire I will long to be married again. I don’t know… thats a long ways off. Its hard for me to even think about it (marriage) sometimes…
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rinnie
Guest
I could only imagine. You know BBA when women are cheated on they tend to feel that they were the person who was lacking something.
BUt what really has happened is the person who cheats has no self-esteem so they take yours off of you.
They feel if they can knock you down far enough then they can make themself look good. Kind of crazy huh?
But the bottom line is he never felt he deserved you. SO he made you pay for his short commings. That is why you could never love him enough or be good enough. No women could or can. Until he confronts this within himself he will continue this cycle.
They say it comes from home life. Who knows. But the bottom line IS you have it Girl!! Or he would have never been with you in the first place.
ANd you regained it when you quit taking the abuse. No matter mental or physical there is no difference.
I am sure you are beautiful person inside and out. Now you just got to figure that out again is all. ANd find yourself again. But its easy. Your in there.
When you come to terms with, it was his problem not yours and you could never fix him, it will all come full circle. BUt for some reason Men like him tend to find the big hearts who fall for the poor me story. And I am sure he had many.
My daughter almost did what you did. By the intercession of the Blessed Mother she had the strength to let him go. Once she got away from him she found a new Person and has been married for almost 3 years already and is so so happy. Just a month ago she said Mom what was I thinking?
I just wish someone could have told you then, what I just did. It may have made a difference. IT did for her.
I saw my sister go through it and all of the signs were there. But the good of this is YOU, YOU can help someone else by your pain. Thats what we call God making a good out of a Bad.
My heart is with you Girl. Stay strong and don’t ever change. ANd don’t ever let anyone ever TRY to change you Again. ANd if you do choose to date again and get it right with the Church, do what I told my daughter. IF there is even one HINT of your Ex. RUN!!
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Usagi
Guest
This is exceptionally important. Many times when the Church has been accused of changing her teaching, it is actually that she has altered her practice because of the development of knowledge in some non-theological area, while the underlying teaching remains the same.BUt times have changed and more issues are at hand and need to be addressed. But the sacrament of Marriage never has in the RCC. Can’t!
For example, the sin of usury used to be understood as applying to any charging of interest for a loan, because the idea of getting back more than you lent out when you didn’t actually do anything seemed like cheating the other person. With the development of different economic models, it was understood that lending does cost something – the opportunity to use that sum for other things – and so a certain amount of interest on a loan is understood not to be usurious, though one is still not to charge so much that the other person is cheated or harmed.
Pro-choice Catholic politicians sometimes cite statements by Augustine or Aquinas indicating that babies only “come to life” after several weeks of pregnancy, thus suggesting that abortion before that time might be a lesser sin than murder (though still a sin, which the politicians usually omit). Those conclusions were based on the medical knowledge of the time, which could not peer into the womb and thus could only know for certain that life existed in an unborn child when it began to move (hence the term “quickening”). Now medical science tells us that a zygote is alive, human, and a unique human being from conception, so the idea of a “lesser” abortion is no longer tenable.
Likewise (and with more relevance to the annulment question), it used to be generally held that all suicides had placed themselves outside the Church by that final act, since taking one’s own life is mortally sinful and physically mortal as well, seemingly giving no opportunity for repentance. Advances in psychology have informed us that a person who commits suicide is rarely making a free choice, so the Church’s current practice – while not denying that a freely chosen suicide would still be mortally sinful – is to give the benefit of the doubt, hold a Christian funeral/burial, and entrust the person to God’s mercy.
The seeming explosion of annulment cases in recent years likely has some of the same roots. No one, I think, would argue with the really obvious (but rare) cases in which the invalidity of the marriage is obvious on its face – i.e., if a brother and sister were to attempt marriage, or if a person were to embark upon bigamy. The controversy over “too many annulments” and “gaming the system” arises when the majority of claimed impediments are more subtle and psychological, like immaturity at the time of the wedding. I suspect that cases of that nature result in declarations of nullity far more often now than in the past, because the tribunals judging the cases are more likely to see the psychological problems as “real” impediments.
Of course, the manipulation of the tribunal system is sadly possible, and it may even be that some tribunal members grant iffy annulments because the first marriage has already broken down and they want to give the applicant a chance to try again. Marriage tribunals are no more infallible than civil judges, and can be subject to the same pressures and temptations of corruption. Just as with the civil judicial system, however, it would be wrong to consider the entire concept of an annulment process bankrupt just because unjust results sometimes occur.
Usagi
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rinnie
Guest
Yes but the Elizabeth nailed them on that one. Remember the scripture that when the Blessed Mother was with her Sister Elizabeth, Elizabeth said blessed are you among women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Now scirpture is sure to state when Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting the INFANT leaped in her womb. There you have it. Mary even stayed 3 months with Elizabeth before entering home. The infant is proof that Human life is there from the beginning.
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joanofarc2008
Guest
First Here is a Good Video With Some Basics
Second - I will give you a couple of examples from my own case -
In this case I am filing based on fraud and deception:
So he knew I was not fertile at the time of the marriage but we had talked in pre-cana about adoption. He told his xwife that one of the things that attracted him was the fact that I could not get pregnant. This showed an unopeness to life that he did not disclose.
He also failed to disclose a pretty bad psychological history that I found paperwork for which resulted in abuse during the marriage.
He was also cheating on me during the engagement which shows a lack of intention to stay faithful. I didn’t know until well after.
It goes on from there but I think that is enough.
Second - I will give you a couple of examples from my own case -
In this case I am filing based on fraud and deception:
So he knew I was not fertile at the time of the marriage but we had talked in pre-cana about adoption. He told his xwife that one of the things that attracted him was the fact that I could not get pregnant. This showed an unopeness to life that he did not disclose.
He also failed to disclose a pretty bad psychological history that I found paperwork for which resulted in abuse during the marriage.
He was also cheating on me during the engagement which shows a lack of intention to stay faithful. I didn’t know until well after.
It goes on from there but I think that is enough.
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BrushedByAngels
Guest
Thank you for such beautifully written postI could only imagine. You know BBA when women are cheated on they tend to feel that they were the person who was lacking something.
BUt what really has happened is the person who cheats has no self-esteem so they take yours off of you.
They feel if they can knock you down far enough then they can make themself look good. Kind of crazy huh?
But the bottom line is he never felt he deserved you. SO he made you pay for his short commings. That is why you could never love him enough or be good enough. No women could or can. Until he confronts this within himself he will continue this cycle.
They say it comes from home life. Who knows. But the bottom line IS you have it Girl!! Or he would have never been with you in the first place.
ANd you regained it when you quit taking the abuse. No matter mental or physical there is no difference.
I am sure you are beautiful person inside and out. Now you just got to figure that out again is all. ANd find yourself again. But its easy. Your in there.
When you come to terms with, it was his problem not yours and you could never fix him, it will all come full circle. BUt for some reason Men like him tend to find the big hearts who fall for the poor me story. And I am sure he had many.
My daughter almost did what you did. By the intercession of the Blessed Mother she had the strength to let him go. Once she got away from him she found a new Person and has been married for almost 3 years already and is so so happy. Just a month ago she said Mom what was I thinking?
I just wish someone could have told you then, what I just did. It may have made a difference. IT did for her.
I saw my sister go through it and all of the signs were there. But the good of this is YOU, YOU can help someone else by your pain. Thats what we call God making a good out of a Bad.
My heart is with you Girl. Stay strong and don’t ever change. ANd don’t ever let anyone ever TRY to change you Again. ANd if you do choose to date again and get it right with the Church, do what I told my daughter. IF there is even one HINT of your Ex. RUN!!
I still consider him a good friend and we get along great. I don’t care to date anyone because I have no desire to anyway… but still feels like we are married but sperated. Maybe because I know we never got an annulment.
If I did reconcile with him (and move in together) I know I do not want any children and would remain abstinent which would make him want to cheat even more. By me remaining abstinent would cause him to sin. So it would not be a good marriage anyway. It wouldnt be fair to him. I have told him if he wants to date he needs to have annulment but he claims he does not want one because I am the only woman he wants to be married to…
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rinnie
Guest
Who knows what is to become of this my love. Just pray alot and let the Holy Spirit lead you will you are meant to be. Who knows:shrug: With God all thing’s are possible.Thank you for such beautifully written post
I still consider him a good friend and we get along great. I don’t care to date anyone because I have no desire to anyway… but still feels like we are married but sperated. Maybe because I know we never got an annulment.
If I did reconcile with him (and move in together) I know I do not want any children and would remain abstinent which would make him want to cheat even more. By me remaining abstinent would cause him to sin. So it would not be a good marriage anyway. It wouldnt be fair to him. I have told him if he wants to date he needs to have annulment but he claims he does not want one because I am the only woman he wants to be married to…
I will keep you in my prayers. Him too actually. May the grace of God lead you both into peace and happiness. It seems to me that for some reason you still have much love left in your heart for this Man. Its sad isn’t it. That no matter what you do you can’t control what you feel in your heart.
While you can control how you react on it, you can’t control the feeling. I hope he will come to know someday what a Lucky Man he is. Keep save! and God Bless you. You sound like such a wonderful loving person. The world needs more of people like you that can continue to love and forgive. You have much Christ in your heart.
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Trader
Guest
You make many excellent points in your post. I just want to address one of them here.
The real problem with the explosion in annulments is that so many people have their attitude toward marriage shaped by the secular culture and not by solid catechesis. Many young people today lack the good example of their parents that was common 70 years ago. A person who enters into marriage intending to remain a “player”, or thinking that no-fault divorce is an easy option if things don’t work out, or that avoiding children is an acceptible option for any couple, really does have an invalid marriage. The tribunal has an obligation in justice to grant an annullment when those facts are proven.
The real gaming of the system comes when one or both of the parties seeking a church wedding lie to the priest or deacon before the marriage takes place. Most of the priests I know are trusting people. They see a lot of couples choose cohabitation instead of marriage, and they will give the benefit of the doubt to any couple who says they want a sacramental marriage.
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rinnie
Guest
Also if I may add to what you already said. The Priest is looking to get the couple out of sin and back into a state of Grace with God.
The Priest is not put on this earth to condemn the couple but rather forgve them for a sin they have commited and helps them to not only be forgiven for the sin lets them live in a Marriage blessed by God.
That is the reason they are here. To help us all get out of mortal sin and put back into the graces of God.
But many couples are sincere in their confession and see that living together is not what they thought is was and ask for forgiveness from the Church and want to live back in the grace of God. And this is a good thing.
For many they see something is missing and then the :newidea: goes off and they see it is God that is missing and that they need to survive. Many like you said become to see why their parents and grandparents of 50 so years stayed together.
And they learned the saying the family that prays together stays together can actually be true.
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rinnie
Guest
And your main point is SOLID CATECHESIS is what we need to bring back. Especially with the young adults. But how can we blame the Church when their parents won’t even go to church?
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