Another Annoyed at RCIA thread

[RyanL_s_Wife]

Can someone help me understand WHY. (I guess I just need another point of view)

So I have been going to RCIA… and the whole process is driving me NUTS!!!

First, they have just thrown everyone into the same room. However, they have given us separate schedules as far as rites and stuff go. This is the first thing that irks me. We are separated by those baptized in the Catholic church and those non-baptized or baptized in another faith. So…what? my baptism isn’t good enough. Well obviously that is not the case. I asked about it and the director said it was because they wanted us to dismiss along with the Catechumens. (of course, they aren’t using the titles catechumens and candidates because last year it was too confusing) It isn’t so much that I have a problem with dismissing… but why ask us to dismiss and not those baptised in the Catholic church? I mean, since I was raised in a devout Baptist church I am pretty sure I know the bible a little bit more than someone who hasn’t set foot in a church since they were baptized as an infant. So why wouldn’t they be asked to be dismissed as well?

Next, I have gone to three classes so far and they aren’t teaching anything that I couldn’t learn at my Baptist church. We are suppose to have the rite of welcoming in less than a month and all they are doing is telling bible stories. I already know who Adam and Eve are. I already believe in God. I know who Jesus is. I get the Trinity. I kid you not… every class so far someone has said. “I am so confused” HUH??? How can you possibly be confused? I feel like I am in a high school remedial class.

I understanding throwing everyone in a big group if it is a small group or there are not enough people to help. But this is a huge group and I think we have more Team members and sponsors than we do candidates and catechumens. Why can’t they have an advanced class or something, were we can really delve into the teaching?

But my biggest problem is. I know quite a bit about the Catholic church, but I am not sure I will convert. I am still trying to figure out if the Catholic church is the true church. I decided to try RCIA in hopes of “meeting the holy spirit half-way” Maybe if I took this step, I would hear God calling me to convert. But so far… There isn’t any Catholic teaching going on. (meaning, anything different than I could get at my Baptist church). How am I suppose to decide in less than a month whether I want to continue with this.

I am not comfortable participating in any rites until I am sure this is what I want to do. How am I suppose to do that if they aren’t even discussing Catholic theology. (again the Theology that is different from my theology. We have discussed nothing that would convince me my beliefs are wrong since they are the same basics)

And finally… Where I stand now, it is all or nothing. Rules are there for a reason. Whether it be, you must attend Mass every week or birth control or something very very simple, If you are the true Church, then you should do everything the Church asks of you. (At least, to the best of your ability.) So then, why isn’t the RCIA program following the recommendations of the USCCB. You know… those raised religious should not go through the same program as the unbaptized. Those baptized should not be accepted into the church at Easter. It is as though our RCIA program completely ignored that entire thing. Why do they not have to follow the outline given them?

Okay… Sorry… I guess this was more of a vent than anything else. But I would love someone else’s perspective. Put myself in a better frame of mind. (I am really trying, I promise) I am even missing a good friend’s baby shower to go to a RCIA retreat. I am just hoping it is something that will be beneficial to everyone, not just those that know nothing about the bible/church.

Any comments/suggestions would be welcomed. I am going to try and stick this out and stay positive. But any help I can get would be great!

Thanks,

RyanL’s Wife

 

[irishmac]

Pax vobsicum

Last year, my fiancee started taking RCIA, unbeknownst to me. She was a member of a chorale group here in Southern California, which met on Monday nights. She, instead, began in the RCIA program at the local Parish. According to her, part of the classes were quite rudimentary considering her Methodist upbringing. The first hour of the class discussed the basics, as you said, but the second half of the class discussed the harder-hitting theological questions. She enjoyed that second half immensely. Now, she still doesn’t know if conversion is for her. But, she plans on starting RCIA again. I can only pray that she hears the call from the Holy Spirit.

I can only recommend to you that you ask the RCIA director if the class can be divided into two distinct portions each session. Ask him/ her if the class can cover the basics in the beginning and the theological issues in the second half. Maybe your husband can start an apologetics class at the parish, or, if there is already one, join in. It would be good for all involved.

Also, the Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. You might sit through one of these rudimentary classes and that Divine spark might kindle a fire inside. You never know!

May the Lord bless you and keep you;
May He make His face to shine upon you;
And give you peace.

 

[DVIN_CKS]

You need to go talk to your parish priest and let him know your concerns. Tell him that you are not being challenged and that you are finding the class WAY below your intellect. You may even ask if you could receive private instruction from a priest (my father-in-law did this). Doesn’t sound like this group is preparing you properly. That is a shame. I can understand how some folks are all over the map in terms of their biblical knowledge and need to be spoon fed in the beginning. It is a shame that they are holding folks like you back.

 

[JimG]

Can someone help me understand WHY.

I think you’ve outlined quite well some of the problems with RCIA as it is generally conducted.

The problem is in the way RCIA is designed. It is designed not primarily as a catechetical or teaching program. Rather it’s emphasis is on personal Faith formation, and the liturgical rites.

Consequently, people who come expecting to learn some specifics about Catholic beliefs and theology are often disappointed.

I understand that the RCIA process was designed to recapture somewhat the methods used in the early Church, not just instruction, but Faith formation. But increasingly, it seems to me, it’s not meeting the needs of the people who are taking it.

As you say, there are quite distinct differences between Protestant and Catholic theology. These need to be addressed, sooner rather than later. Too often, candidates and catechumens go on to participate in the rites because they feel that is what is expected, without really knowing what they believe or whether they are ready to make a commitment.

In today’s world, it might make sense for RCIA to be a little more apologetics based, but that would require more than just a change of local programs. RCIA programs work from a national model.

 

[E.E.N.S]

RyanL’s wife, I understand how you feel, when I came through the RCIA process (back in 2001) I felt like I wasn’t learning anything from the people running it and I was frustrated. I would imagine that being the wife of RyanL ( ) that you have access to a wealth of information, catechism, etc. (am I right?) Perhaps use what you learn and come into the Church and after being properly catechized, YOU teach the RCIA there and bring that place up to standards! (I know plenty of people who did just that!) Good luck, let me know how it goes! (jk…sort of. )

 

[BJRumph]

Having only come into the Church this past Easter, I can understand the frustration, both as a participant and witness. I was a candidate, due to my valid baptism, but my wife (being born & raised mormon) was a catechumin.

The first thing you need to come to grips with is, it is not that your “baptism isn’t good enough”, but that if your prior baptism was not considered valid, it is more likely that there are fundamental doctrinal distinctions that you will need to become aware of, and approach baptism with a proper understanding of the character and basis of the rite. For example, despite using the “proper formula” (ie wording), the mormon idea of what is the founding power of the rite (the “proper” preisthood authority of the LDS,vs Anyone with proper intent of the RCC), and the character of God in whom’s name you are being baptized in is so distinct and at odds with Catholic thought, that their baptisms cannot be recognized.

This is not an attack on you, or really even the religion you were baptized in, but the necessary “break” needed for you to step back and relearn what baptism is supposed to be about. It is an opportunity to scrutinize and come with fresh eyes about the very foundation of your Christian life. It is not about being “good enough”, it is about Truth, and developing an understanding of it. As many of the protestant churches still agree and hold the same understanding of baptism that the RCC does, then they do not need to reevaluate that particular function, which allows them to focus on what is different.

As to the issue of the RCIA programs itself, specifically its haphazard implementation, I do sympathize. I my case, we started RCIA at the Cathedral, but due to numerous personnel changes, their RCIA program fell apart, and we had to switch to the other Parish in town. I loved the Cathedral’s program because it did stick to the program, and had both structure, and informed & intelligent administers who, while obviously not on the same level of knowledge, were certainly on the same “wavelength” as myself, making discussion interesting and actually useful. The other parish, otoh, while had intelligent and well meaning life-long devout Catholics teaching, had absolutely no structure, and the basic plan was, “we will discuss any questions you have about the Church” with the occasional very broad and abstract “seed” used to try and begin conversation when no questions were forthcoming. The problem with that is, if you don’t know something exists, how can you ask about it? All the things I knew about the Church I had already struggled with and converted to before the RCIA program actually started (bad timing on my part ). Unfortunately, now that the local cable service carries EWTN, I am constantly exposed to things I have never seen before which now I have questions about, but now I don’t have a proper forum to ask them (aside from here, but they usually aren’t things to start a thread over, like “what do the bells in Mass signify?”)

The point being; perhaps the Priest can recommend another nearby RCIA with the character you’d be more comfortable with is available? I know they will likely give you the “community” speech, but they will also likely be understanding that you need a different micro-community to learn in.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Can someone help me understand WHY. (I guess I just need another point of view)

So I have been going to RCIA… and the whole process is driving me NUTS!!!

First, they have just thrown everyone into the same room. However, they have given us separate schedules as far as rites and stuff go. This is the first thing that irks me. We are separated by those baptized in the Catholic church and those non-baptized or baptized in another faith. So…what? my baptism isn’t good enough. Well obviously that is not the case. I asked about it and the director said it was because they wanted us to dismiss along with the Catechumens. (of course, they aren’t using the titles catechumens and candidates because last year it was too confusing) It isn’t so much that I have a problem with dismissing… but why ask us to dismiss and not those baptised in the Catholic church?

I agree with you 100% separating those who have received first communion makes some sense, separating between baptized Christians makes no sense.

I mean, since I was raised in a devout Baptist church I am pretty sure I know the bible a little bit more than someone who hasn’t set foot in a church since they were baptized as an infant. So why wouldn’t they be asked to be dismissed as well?

not following you here ( what’s new) the tradition has that scared Catholics in the first few hundred years based on location separated themselves for Eucharist because it voided laws punishable by death. So the First Communion group have passed that phase all other should be dismissed.

Next, I have gone to three classes so far and they aren’t teaching anything that I couldn’t learn at my Baptist church. We are suppose to have the rite of welcoming in less than a month and all they are doing is telling bible stories. I already know who Adam and Eve are. I already believe in God. I know who Jesus is. I get the Trinity. I kid you not… every class so far someone has said. “I am so confused” HUH??? How can you possibly be confused? I feel like I am in a high school remedial class.

You are mixing two different issues here 1) Baptist are very similar to Catholic in religion, the primary difference is the authority of Bishops 2) Some people only know an amalgamation of things they have heard and thus the group should start at the beginning, believe me it is much easier that backing up to the beginning later.

I understanding throwing everyone in a big group if it is a small group or there are not enough people to help. But this is a huge group and I think we have more Team members and sponsors than we do candidates and catechumens. Why can’t they have an advanced class or something, were we can really delve into the teaching?

But my biggest problem is. I know quite a bit about the Catholic church, but I am not sure I will convert. I am still trying to figure out if the Catholic church is the true church. I decided to try RCIA in hopes of “meeting the holy spirit half-way” Maybe if I took this step, I would hear God calling me to convert. But so far… There isn’t any Catholic teaching going on. (meaning, anything different than I could get at my Baptist church). How am I suppose to decide in less than a month whether I want to continue with this.

I am not comfortable participating in any rites until I am sure this is what I want to do. How am I suppose to do that if they aren’t even discussing Catholic theology. (again the Theology that is different from my theology. We have discussed nothing that would convince me my beliefs are wrong since they are the same basics)

Baptist theology is not different so do not hold your breath. You have nothing to decide yet the Rite of Acceptance is only an invitation as far as I know (part 1)

 

[Texas_Roofer]

(part 2)

And finally… Where I stand now, it is all or nothing. Rules are there for a reason. Whether it be, you must attend Mass every week or birth control or something very very simple, If you are the true Church, then you should do everything the Church asks of you. (At least, to the best of your ability.) So then, why isn’t the RCIA program following the recommendations of the USCCB. You know… those raised religious should not go through the same program as the unbaptized. Those baptized should not be accepted into the church at Easter. It is as though our RCIA program completely ignored that entire thing. Why do they not have to follow the outline given them?

The USCCB guidelines are just that guides. Doctrine is the requirements. Usually the group progresses together the baptized sit in the pew during Easter Baptism. The Euchrist is recieved by all ( allow the First Communion group to be in front or receive first). Confirmation applies to the whole group

[chopped for words] I am even missing a good friend’s baby shower to go to a RCIA retreat. I am just hoping it is something that will be beneficial to everyone, not just those that know nothing about the bible/church.

Any comments/suggestions would be welcomed. I am going to try and stick this out and stay positive. But any help I can get would be great!

Thanks,

RyanL’s Wife

Have you considered asking your Sponsor to setup some alternative teaching for you? this maybe appropriate.

One more thing (little me raise a deflector shield) having been to the retreat several times …(go to the shower)

 

[leonie]

I asked my husband why he dropped out of RCIA. He said that he wasn’t getting much out of it. I was shocked, "oh, you expected to get something out of it?

I always thought of it as penance.

He never did go back. Our DRE is very good about doing alternate arrangements though. So, I figure he really wasn’t committed. Go ahead and ask about an alternate arrangement (independent study). It can’t hurt to ask.

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

Thank you all for your responses. First let me say. We have a great priest that speaks during RCIA. We probably have one of the better programs. I guess I shouldn’t complain. There are just some many things that could be better. (and some things I don’t like at all) The priest could share amazing stuff if we were separated into groups. But since he has to stick to the basics for a lot of the people, it just leaves me bored. Maybe it will get better.

Here are some answers/clarification to a few of your posts.

BJRumph[/B]
, post:6, topic:53708”]

The first thing you need to come to grips with is, it is not that your “baptism isn’t good enough”, but that if your prior baptism was not considered valid…

My Baptism IS valid. I was just saying they separate anyone who was not Baptized in the Catholic church and group them together with those who haven’t been baptized at all. We go through all the same rites as the non-baptized. (I think the call them something different, but we are suppose to show up for everything they do, not so for those Baptized in the Catholic church…even if they have received no formation)

I agree with you 100% separating those who have received first communion makes some sense, separating between baptized Christians makes no sense

. My point exactly. I don’t understand why, when I asked, they said it was about community. So… those that were baptized in the Catholic church, but have no formation, don’t need community?

not following you here ( what’s new) the tradition has that scared Catholics in the first few hundred years based on location separated themselves for Eucharist because it voided laws punishable by death. So the First Communion group have passed that phase all other should be dismissed. You are mixing two different issues here

I don’t know if I am not understanding you or vice versa. I wouldn’t expect someone who has had first communion to be dismissed. I am speaking of those who were only Baptized in the Catholic church, no other formation. Why are they any different from me merely because they were Baptized in the Catholic church? I thought our Baptisms were equally valid?

(part 2) The USCCB guidelines are just that guides.

I understand that… but they took the time to come up with a guide for a reason. And they even explain why the made the guidelines as they did. I guess I had hope people would pay attention to them.

Have you considered asking your Sponsor to setup some alternative teaching for you? this maybe appropriate.

All the unbaptized and baptized in other than the Catholic church have to interview with the priest right before the rite of welcoming. I will probably speak to him then. (We don’t have sponsors yet… they are all there at the meeting…they just haven’t been assigned)

One more thing (little me raise a deflector shield) having been to the retreat several times …(go to the shower)

Trust me, I have thought about it. But I am really trying to give the holy spirit a chance… and I don’t want to miss him when he finally shows up.

Thanks again everyone. I am feeling a bit better…

I just don’t understand why everything can’t be about ME
(I’m working on it)

God Bless,

RyanL’s Wife

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

Thank you all for your responses. First let me say. We have a great priest that speaks during RCIA. We probably have one of the better programs. I guess I shouldn’t complain. There are just some many things that could be better. (and some things I don’t like at all) The priest could share amazing stuff if we were separated into groups. But since he has to stick to the basics for a lot of the people, it just leaves me bored. Maybe it will get better.

Here are some answers/clarification to a few of your posts.

The first thing you need to come to grips with is, it is not that your “baptism isn’t good enough”, but that if your prior baptism was not considered valid…

My Baptism IS valid. I was just saying they separate anyone who was not Baptized in the Catholic church and group them together with those who haven’t been baptized at all. We go through all the same rites as the non-baptized. (I think the call them something different, but we are suppose to show up for everything they do, not so for those Baptized in the Catholic church…even if they have recieved no formation)

I agree with you 100% separating those who have received first communion makes some sense, separating between baptized Christians makes no sense

. My point exactly. I don’t understand why, when I asked, they said it was about community. So… those that were baptized in the Catholic church, but have no formation, don’t need community?

not following you here ( what’s new) the tradition has that scared Catholics in the first few hundred years based on location separated themselves for Eucharist because it voided laws punishable by death. So the First Communion group have passed that phase all other should be dismissed. You are mixing two different issues here

I don’t know if I am not understanding you or vice versa I wouldn’t expect someone who has had first communion to be dismissed. I am speaking of those who were only Baptized in the Catholic church, no other formation. Why are they any different from me merely because they were Baptized in the Catholic church? I thought our Baptisms were equally valid?

The USCCB guidelines are just that guides.

I understand that… but they took the time to come up with a guide for a reason. And they even explain why the made the guidelines as they did. I guess I had hope people would pay attention to them.

Have you considered asking your Sponsor to setup some alternative teaching for you? this maybe appropriate.

All the unbaptized and baptized in other than the Catholic church have to interview with the priest right before the rite of welcoming. I will probably speak to him then. (We don’t have sponsors yet… they are all there at the meeting…they just haven’t been assigned)

One more thing (little me raise a deflector shield) having been to the retreat several times …(go to the shower)

Trust me, I have thought about it. But I am really trying to give the holy spirit a chance… and I don’t want to miss him when he finally shows up.

Thanks again everyone. I am feeling a bit better…

I just don’t understand why everything can’t be about ME
(I’m working on it)

God Bless,

RyanL’s Wife

 

[jmcrae]

Ryan’s Wife;

I totally sympathize with you. I felt like I was in remedial kindergarten all the way through RCIA. The biggest benefit to me was getting to know the others, especially other people’s sponsors. But I must have picked up something along the way, because I knew a whole lot more when I was Confirmed than I did on my first day of RCIA.

Now that I’m an RCIA leader, I would love to do more than just “remedial Sunday School,” but honey - oh my dear - the ones who come in knowing anything at all are so few and far between - it’s unbelievable to me, but anyway, yeah - if I don’t cover the absolute basics, most of these people will be totally lost. (And hey, a little review never hurt anyone, I don’t think.)

Even those who claim to have a strong background in some kind of Protestant tradition will often try to find the Book of Revelation in the Old Testament, or think that the Trinity is God in three different modalities - “like water,” one person told me, “ice, liquid, and steam.” AAAARRGH!! That is the heresy of Modalism, and was supposed to have died out in the 4th century. But anyway.

My motto, after two years of this, is, “Never assume that they know anything at all. Even if they swear to you that they were a Sunday School teacher for 40 years.”

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

You have nothing to decide yet the Rite of Acceptance is only an invitation as far as I know (part 1)

The Rite of Acceptance IS a critical decision time. At that point you must decide if you are going to become Christian and seek Baptism or stay in Inquiry still seeking answers.

The time to back out is NOT after the Rite of Acceptance, but before.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

The Rite of Acceptance IS a critical decision time. At that point you must decide if you are going to become Christian and seek Baptism or stay in Inquiry still seeking answers.

The time to back out is NOT after the Rite of Acceptance, but before.

Thank you for the catch you are correct, I was reading the comment of “~ having to decide in less than a month” which makes no sense. So I intended to write The Rite of Initiation, unfortunately I reverted back, mental lapse. Thank you sorry for the confusion.

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you for the catch you are correct, I was reading the comment of “~ having to decide in less than a month” which makes no sense.

They probably have the abbreviated September to Easter RCIA, so their Period of Inquiry may indeed be less than one month.

The Rite of Acceptance or Rite of Welcome occurs at the end of the Period of Inquiry, and signifies the beginning of the Period of Catechesis. At this time, the sort of casual “getting to know you” atmosphere that is typical of the Inquiry period is replaced with a structured lesson plan, and deeper, more focused discussions.

 

[Odell]

check out this web page www.acmrcia.org
it is a program that is for RCIA maybe you should sugest this. it is cost effective, structured, and has apologetics.

so check the web page out I think you would like it and maybe you can get this program in your church. trust me there are people in your class thinking the same thing and this could be very helpfull to your church and rcia program

 

[LeahInancsi]

I’m a graduate of the RCIA class of 2006. In my class,everybody was treated the same regardless of whether they had been baptized or not until the four or five weeks before Easter Vigil.

The Religious Education Director at my parish taught the class and he is excellent. He has a master’s degree from Franciscan U. (please excuse my bragging). It breaks my heart to hear the horror stories that I’m starting to hear this year. I know how wonderful this time can be and should be.

I’ve said it in another thread, but I think that there should be no difference in what baptized and unbaptized are taught in RCIA. When I went through RCIA, I was not baptized and I knew more about the Catholic church than some of the sponsors. The idea that unbaptized are ignorant and baptized are more knowledgable is erroneous.

 

[jmcrae]

Just FYI, the reason for separating baptized from unbaptized people is not because of a difference in knowledge, but because of a difference in spiritual needs. Baptized people already have the graces of Baptism, and are building on these.

Unbaptized people don’t, yet, and they have different needs. The Rites themselves show the distinction clearly, but if the Rites aren’t being used correctly (or at all) then it’s easy for RCIA to become just another Catechism class - which is not what it’s supposed to be - there is a Period of Catechesis in RCIA, but the other six parts of it are also really important, as well.

RCIA is supposed to be a spiritual journey - not a “learning experience.”

 

[corvidae]

But I think the thing here is all christian baptism is valid. Unless there are grave misconceptions about God, Such as with mormons, anyone can baptise, and any christian who has been baptised with water “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” then they are baptised. It seems strange to me to seperate those baptised Catholic and those not.

A lone Raven

 

[RyanL_s_Wife]

Just FYI, the reason for separating baptized from unbaptized people is not because of a difference in knowledge, but because of a difference in spiritual needs. Baptized people already have the graces of Baptism, and are building on these.

Unbaptized people don’t, yet, and they have different needs.

But I think the thing here is all christian baptism is valid. Unless there are grave misconceptions about God, Such as with mormons, anyone can baptise, and any christian who has been baptised with water “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” then they are baptised. It seems strange to me to separate those baptised Catholic and those not.

A lone Raven

Exactly. That is my issue. They are separating us into two groups

1. Those Baptized in the Catholic church

and

1. Those not baptized or baptized anywhere other than the Catholic church.

This grouping does not seem appropriate.