Another Ask-A-Pagan thread

[Skadi]

How was this belief revealed to humanity?

Its a folk teaching, its cultural. I dont know if its true but i believe it is.

 

[Brendan_64]

Its a folk teaching, its cultural. I dont know if its true but i believe it is.

And how do you distinguish the truth of one different cultural folk tale from another? On what authority is this based? Or are a person’s own personal beliefs an authority on determining what is and what is not the truth? How many versions of the truth are there? 7 billion?

 

[PRmerger]

Its a folk teaching, its cultural. I dont know if its true but i believe it is.

So you really don’t believe that there are any teachings that have been revealed that come from The All?

 

[Skadi]

And how do you distinguish the truth of one different cultural folk tale from another? On what authority is this based? Or are a person’s own personal beliefs an authority on determining what is and what is not the truth? How many versions of the truth are there? 7 billion?

Its just a personal cultural belief. There is no fiery pit that you are thrown in if you dont get your beliefs just right. I believe that a mans fate is fixed, I dont have proof, but i believe it.

 

[PRmerger]

Its just a personal cultural belief. There is no fiery pit that you are thrown in if you dont get your beliefs just right. I believe that a mans fate is fixed, I dont have proof, but i believe it.

So this is what I’m saying: you have found a religion that matches your own belief.

Not conformed your beliefs to what God (or Is All) has revealed.

Is this not really just a way for you to deify your own beliefs?

 

[Skadi]

So you really don’t believe that there are any teachings that have been revealed that come from The All?

I believe the universal Mores, ie. Dont kill without reasons, don’t steal, ect. come from the Is All, via the religions of the world, sense all world religions expound these basic concepts. Everything past that is cultural dressing from the culture to which the religion belongs. I dont believe the Is All reveals anything directly itself because its impersonal.

 

[Skadi]

So this is what I’m saying: you have found a religion that matches your own belief.

Not conformed your beliefs to what God (or Is All) has revealed.

Is this not really just a way for you to deify your own beliefs?

… did you not just read before when I said it was extremely difficult for me to accept the idea of a fixed fate.

 

[Brendan_64]

Its just a personal cultural belief. There is no fiery pit that you are thrown in if you dont get your beliefs just right. I believe that a mans fate is fixed, I dont have proof, but i believe it.

So the only authority upon which you base your belief is the fact that you believe it? There is no authority higher than your own opinion? Your opinion must truly be god in itself.

 

[Skadi]

So the only authority upon which you base your belief is the fact that you believe it? There is no authority higher than your own opinion? Your opinion must truly be god in itself.

It is the traditional belief, and the Eddas corroborate it. Odin strugled to learn how to change fate and at the end of the story he learned that no one, not even the gods, can alter fate.

 

[PRmerger]

… did you not just read before when I said it was extremely difficult for me to accept the idea of a fixed fate.

So why do you accept it if it comes from someone/something with no authority?

It would be like someone telling me, “Follow me! I found a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow that Santa Claus left behind for me!”

Why would I believe him? Especially when there’s no way to prove that this person is correct?

The equivalent would be for me to say, “I found it really hard extremely difficult for me to accept the idea that there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that Santa left him, but then I did accept it.”

Why would I?

Why did you?

 

[ffg]

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Or heres an NT one, about the last words of Jesus.

MAT 27:46,50: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?” that is to say, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” …Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”

LUK 23:46: “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, “Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:” and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”

JOH 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished:” and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

Now I went to a catholic High School and had the good fortune of having a great theology teacher who loved apologetics. He stated on several occasions that its possible for a catholic to take the OT allegorically, but that the Gospels MUST be literal. So, if all three of these MUST be true, then what where the final words of Jesus?

Alright, back to this one, I’ll try my best to be concise and will spend way too long for a post on a website, but I find this to be important.

OT - Your first quote from Isaiah Chapter 14 is one of the last stanza’s in a song about the downfall of the King of Babylon (Some think maybe about the death of an Assyrian king) but a taunt-song all the same.

Similar to how sports fans might jeer the away team as they walk off the field losers, you have this going on in a song here.

Here is what the USCCB has to say on the song along with the source so people can read the whole song -

• [14:4–21] This taunt-song, a satirical funeral lament, is a beautiful example of classical Hebrew poetry. According to the prose introduction and the prosaic conclusion (vv. 22–23), it is directed against the king of Babylon, though Babylon is mentioned nowhere in the song itself. If the reference to Babylon is accurate, the piece was composed long after the time of Isaiah, for Babylon was not a threat to Judah in the eighth century. Some have argued that Isaiah wrote it at the death of an Assyrian king and the references to Babylon were made by a later editor, but this is far from certain.

Source for Isaiah Chapter 14 - usccb.org/bible/isaiah/14

The second quote from Deut. 24 is instructional to the reader (as is the whole Chapter), we’ll pay for our own sins, simple enough.

Deut source: usccb.org/bible/deuteronomy/24

Without the context of the full books and the audience and purpose of the writing, it’s impossible to compare correctly. Especially in the OT where the genre’s differ greatly from book to book.

There is no contradiction.

NT -

So to sum the above, you want to hang your hat with the HUGE accusation that the bible is contradictory over the english translation of an ‘on the last breath after major torture, almost dead guy’s’ words - from 20 feet in the air above the next closest person.

Talk about trying your hardest to discount.

There are so many reasonable variables that we could also assume (Jeering, etc.). One can only imagine the effort that took after three hours hanging to speak at all.

Of which the three translations all mean the same thing…“I’ve stretched out this suffering as long as possible, I’m dead”.

I was really hoping you would find something a little more hearty like ‘On Sept 20th 0032, Jesus went North in this passage, but south in this passage. Which one is right?’

As Randy has noted some of the details, let’s learn a little on context of the situation.

We will also focus on the account from the guy who was there. Let’s consider “It is Finished”.

What is finished? (Get the CD or download from Lighthouse media, Scott Hahn’s “The Fourth Cup”).

A summary not as good as Scott’s -

Passover tradition had 4 cups involved in the meal. Three were shared at Jesus’ passover meal. (Imagine the confusion of the Apostles when He got up to leave before finishing Passover)

Then to the garden to pray in anguish, what did Jesus pray for? ‘To let THIS CUP pass Him by’.

“It is Finished”? He drank the fourth cup hanging on the cross. His suffering was a finishing of the old way. Start of a New Way, New Covenant.

Thus we don’t celebrate Passover as was done before Christ, as Christians.

He 'Finished It".

 

[Skadi]

Alright, back to this one, I’ll try my best to be concise and will spend way too long for a post on a website, but I find this to be important.

OT - Your first quote from Isaiah Chapter 14 is one of the last stanza’s in a song about the downfall of the King of Babylon (Some think maybe about the death of an Assyrian king) but a taunt-song all the same.

Similar to how sports fans might jeer the away team as they walk off the field losers, you have this going on in a song here.

Here is what the USCCB has to say on the song along with the source so people can read the whole song -

• [14:4–21] This taunt-song, a satirical funeral lament, is a beautiful example of classical Hebrew poetry. According to the prose introduction and the prosaic conclusion (vv. 22–23), it is directed against the king of Babylon, though Babylon is mentioned nowhere in the song itself. If the reference to Babylon is accurate, the piece was composed long after the time of Isaiah, for Babylon was not a threat to Judah in the eighth century. Some have argued that Isaiah wrote it at the death of an Assyrian king and the references to Babylon were made by a later editor, but this is far from certain.

Source for Isaiah Chapter 14 - usccb.org/bible/isaiah/14

The second quote from Deut. 24 is instructional to the reader (as is the whole Chapter), we’ll pay for our own sins, simple enough.

Deut source: usccb.org/bible/deuteronomy/24

Without the context of the full books and the audience and purpose of the writing, it’s impossible to compare correctly. Especially in the OT where the genre’s differ greatly from book to book.

There is no contradiction.

NT -

So to sum the above, you want to hang your hat with the HUGE accusation that the bible is contradictory over the english translation of an ‘on the last breath after major torture, almost dead guy’s’ words - from 20 feet in the air above the next closest person.

Talk about trying your hardest to discount.

There are so many reasonable variables that we could also assume (Jeering, etc.). One can only imagine the effort that took after three hours hanging to speak at all.

Of which the three translations all mean the same thing…“I’ve stretched out this suffering as long as possible, I’m dead”.

I was really hoping you would find something a little more hearty like ‘On Sept 20th 0032, Jesus went North in this passage, but south in this passage. Which one is right?’

As Randy has noted some of the details, let’s learn a little on context of the situation.

We will also focus on the account from the guy who was there. Let’s consider “It is Finished”.

What is finished? (Get the CD or download from Lighthouse media, Scott Hahn’s “The Fourth Cup”).

A summary not as good as Scott’s -

Passover tradition had 4 cups involved in the meal. Three were shared at Jesus’ passover meal. (Imagine the confusion of the Apostles when He got up to leave before finishing Passover)

Then to the garden to pray in anguish, what did Jesus pray for? ‘To let THIS CUP pass Him by’.

“It is Finished”? He drank the fourth cup hanging on the cross. His suffering was a finishing of the old way. Start of a New Way, New Covenant.

Thus we don’t celebrate Passover as was done before Christ, as Christians, he 'Finished It".

If this was any old book i wouldn’t care, but this is claimed to be the inspired word of god and entirely factually true, at least the NT. So if the gospels are infallible then one of them must not be because they say contradictory things. Jesus’s last words arnt some massive bullet point in Christian dogma but when you put that sort of weight on a book, as to call it the inspired word of god, then one little crack and the whole thing falls apart. And this isnt the OT which can be said to be allegorical. The stories of Jesus cant be allegory for Christianity to work. So your options are A) the Gospels or at least one of them are allegory, or B) One of the books is not the inspired word of god, and because the Synod of Hippo placed a non-divinely inspired book in the bible, the whole canon now comes into question.

Take your pick but if the question is looked at honestly and logically there are only 2 ways the cookie can crumble. When you ascribe the title of Word of God to a piece of scripture, your setting the bar extremely high, one little chink in the armor and the whole thing comes tumbling down.

 

[ffg]

If this was any old book i wouldn’t care, but this is claimed to be the inspired word of god and entirely factually true, at least the NT. So if the gospels are infallible then one of them must not be because they say contradictory things. Jesus’s last words arnt some massive bullet point in Christian dogma but when you put that sort of weight on a book, as to call it the inspired word of god, then one little crack and the whole thing falls apart. And this isnt the OT which can be said to be allegorical. The stories of Jesus cant be allegory for Christianity to work. So your options are A) the Gospels or at least one of them are allegory, or B) One of the books is not the inspired word of god, and because the Synod of Hippo placed a non-divinely inspired book in the bible, the whole canon now comes into question.

Take your pick but if the question is looked at honestly and logically there are only 2 ways the cookie can crumble. When you ascribe the title of Word of God to a piece of scripture, your setting the bar extremely high, one little chink in the armor and the whole thing comes tumbling down.

Wow. See you next week!

Go Hawks!

 

[Randy_Carson]

If this was any old book i wouldn’t care, but this is claimed to be the inspired word of god and entirely factually true, at least the NT. So if the gospels are infallible then one of them must not be because they say contradictory things. Jesus’s last words arnt some massive bullet point in Christian dogma but when you put that sort of weight on a book, as to call it the inspired word of god, then one little crack and the whole thing falls apart. And this isnt the OT which can be said to be allegorical. The stories of Jesus cant be allegory for Christianity to work. So your options are A) the Gospels or at least one of them are allegory, or B) One of the books is not the inspired word of god, and because the Synod of Hippo placed a non-divinely inspired book in the bible, the whole canon now comes into question.

Take your pick but if the question is looked at honestly and logically there are only 2 ways the cookie can crumble. When you ascribe the title of Word of God to a piece of scripture, your setting the bar extremely high, one little chink in the armor and the whole thing comes tumbling down.

Gee, we did cover this in post #160 and following, and you interacted with my explanation.

It comes up again?

 

[Brendan_64]

It is the traditional belief, and the Eddas corroborate it. Odin strugled to learn how to change fate and at the end of the story he learned that no one, not even the gods, can alter fate.

Odin? Does he really exist? Isn’t he simply a ‘cultural dressing’? Existing because some men believe him to? As their means of trying to make sense of the universe? Isn’t man’s own belief the highest authority? Surely Odin is subservient to the minds of men, existing simply because they believe him to exist?

As for the Eddas, where does their authority come from? Aren’t they simply tales from the minds of men? Whose only authority comes from the fact that some men believe them to represent truth?

 

[Skadi]

Odin? Does he really exist? Isn’t he simply a ‘cultural dressing’? Existing because some men believe him to? As their means of trying to make sense of the universe? Isn’t man’s own belief the highest authority? Surely Odin is subservient to the minds of men, existing simply because they believe him to exist?

As for the Eddas, where does their authority come from? Aren’t they simply tales from the minds of men? Whose only authority comes from the fact that some men believe them to represent truth?

When did I ever say that? Putting words in my mouth are we? I do not believe the existence of my gods excludes the existence of others.

 

[Brendan_64]

When did I ever say that? Putting words in my mouth are we? I do not believe the existence of my gods excludes the existence of others.

You said as much here.

I believe the universal Mores, ie. Dont kill without reasons, don’t steal, ect. come from the Is All, via the religions of the world, sense all world religions expound these basic concepts. Everything past that is cultural dressing from the culture to which the religion belongs. I dont believe the Is All reveals anything directly itself because its impersonal.

That ‘cultural dressing’ would, by your logic, include the Eddas? If they aren’t divinely revealed, then they are no more than tales created by men.

If the tales of your gods were created by men, and not divinely revealed, then what does that make your gods?

 

[Skadi]

You said as much here.

That ‘cultural dressing’ would, by your logic, include the Eddas? If they aren’t divinely revealed, then they are no more than tales created by men.

If the tales of your gods were created by men, and not divinely revealed, then what does that make your gods?

I never said the gods are fixtures or products of mans mind. Look back and time and again I affirm the assistance of the gods. What I meant by that is that I do not believe it matters what gods you worship, that they all will lead you closer to the Is All, and that what dietys people worship simply varies from culture to culture

 

[Brendan_64]

I never said the gods are fixtures or products of mans mind. Look back and time and again I affirm the assistance of the gods. What I meant by that is that I do not believe it matters what gods you worship, that they all will lead you closer to the Is All, and that what dietys people worship simply varies from culture to culture

But you say that nothing is revealed from the ‘Is All’, so how are you to be sure if the gods you worship are actually real, and not just the product of the cultural mindset and identity that you have bought into? What of the tales of the lives of your gods? If the eddas and sagas are not divinely revealed and simply man-made tales and not divinely revealed, then the lives of your gods, and indeed your gods themselves, are simply the cultural product of men in their attempts to make sense of the world around them.

 

[Skadi]

But you say that nothing is revealed from the ‘Is All’, so how are you to be sure if the gods you worship are actually real, and not just the product of the cultural mindset and identity that you have bought into? What of the tales of the lives of your gods? If the eddas and sagas are not divinely revealed and simply man-made tales and not divinely revealed, then the lives of your gods, and indeed your gods themselves, are simply the cultural product of men in their attempts to make sense of the world around them.

The gods, like us, are part of the is all. The Eddas are allegorical stories, they are meant to convey a point. And I have had personal experiences that have lead to my faith in the gods, Paganism is esoteric through and through.