Another Ask-A-Pagan thread

[PRmerger]

Wow, this is truly cool.

Skadi, I do follow many religions (belong to none) - however, I must admit, I do not know very much about Paganism…

You sparked my interested… Time for me to learn about something new

Peace
LTW

So glad that you are a seeker.

Just wanted to give you a piece of friendly advice: make sure you are a seeker of Truth, and conform your views to what is True.

Do not find a religion/theololgy which conforms to your own views.

 

[PRmerger]

Which always cracks me up when I hear someone say that they have a personal relationship with God but don’t need religion. Its like saying I have a personal relationship with God but I don’t need a relationship. lol.

Egg-zactly.

Makes no sense, right?

 

[Skadi]

Hadn’t got the stomach for a fight? Or knew when not to fight a battle they couldn’t win? Certainly out of character for them not to engage in a fight, don’t you think? Or maybe they aren’t the tough warriors, they’re portrayed as in their stories?

Not since the coming of Christ. The once tiny little sect has become that greatest religion on the planet. Quite amazing wouldn’t you say?

The gods do not fight wars on the earth, men do.

And seeing as Christianity is seen as a continuation of Judaism your point is irrelevant. If you believe the Bible, which I assume you do, then you believe it has in human history come to pass that the worship of Yhwh has died out completely in the world of men. So please answer me, why did he allow this? Allow his people whom he claims to love so much prostrate themselves before imaginary deities?

Hadn’t got the stomach for a fight? Or knew when not to fight a battle he couldn’t win? Certainly out of character for him not to engage in a fight, don’t you think? After all if he cares about saving our immortal souls from a fiery pit so much that he let his one and only son be crucified he would have done something to stop every living soul on the planet from turning away from him.

Now this is the point where you most likely come at me with the standard issue Christian “He wants us to chose him freely” argument, but why does that not apply to my gods? Why would my gods, who value freedom so highly, want to force the people to worship them?

Im not here to insult anyone and I dont think i have done anything to mock your god, but I will not just sit there while you call the gods of my ancestors cowards.

 

[Skadi]

So glad that you are a seeker.

Just wanted to give you a piece of friendly advice: make sure you are a seeker of Truth, and conform your views to what is True.

Do not find a religion/theololgy which conforms to your own views.

I would agree, totally. One should believe what they think is true, not what they wish was true.

 

[ffg]

I agree, universal truth is the great attracting factor of all religion, and Christianity has it. But i dont think Christianity’s survival over the past 2000 years is necessarily indicative that it is entirely true. Hinduism, Shinto, Taoism, and Buddhism all predate Christianity and are still going very strong. Personally i consider Christianity’s rise to dominance in the west a combination of structural advantages that aid in conversion and political factors.

I didn’t say Christianity’s survival was indicative that it was true. To stay on point, I’ll skip this for now.

We were talking about the Bible and contradiction. The bible being foundational, if that is broken, the house come’s tumbling down.

You made a comment about contradiction in the Bible, of which I think you should elaborate, it would make a great thread.

I said that people are not stupid.

If contradiction existed in the Bible, the religion would fall flat on it’s face.

We agree truth is what attracts. Well, if the Bible was contradictory in any way, the religion, especially the branches from the True Church who use it as a sole foundation would shrink rapidly.

Why? Because people don’t like to be lied to.

 

[alexandratm]

Are there any consequences for living an immoral or evil life. In other words does a mass murderer of children just pass on to the next life as a worst case scenario?

I see you’re getting fired at from about three sides right now so I’ll back off.

Hopping in here, because I did a bunch of reading into different forms of paganism/Wicca for a while before ultimately deciding it wasn’t for me. I found that many pagan sects had some sort of rule of return, where any energy, act, or intention sent out into the world had consequences. Positive behavior would result in positive return, negative with negative. Some Wiccans follow the rule of three where the return would be magnified three fold. Basically, it’s the Golden Rule. I can’t speak to Germanic paganism, but many others seemed to have some sort of reciprocity ethics practice.

 

[SteveVH]

Hopping in here, because I did a bunch of reading into different forms of paganism/Wicca for a while before ultimately deciding it wasn’t for me. I found that many pagan sects had some sort of rule of return, where any energy, act, or intention sent out into the world had consequences. Positive behavior would result in positive return, negative with negative. Some Wiccans follow the rule of three where the return would be magnified three fold. Basically, it’s the Golden Rule. I can’t speak to Germanic paganism, but many others seemed to have some sort of reciprocity ethics practice.

Kind of a “Karma” approach?

 

[alexandratm]

Kind of a “Karma” approach?

Basically, at least in the American cultural understanding of karma, where we think what goes around comes around. From what I understand, Buddhist or Hindu beliefs about karma are more complex, but most of western civilization tends to boil it down to that simple explanation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Eddas and other Sagas are indeed written sources like the bible, but they are stories of the deeds of Gods and Warriors as opposed to a book of divine revelation. Nowhere does Odin sit down and lay out doctrine, its all allegory. But with the bible even if one takes parts as allegory, the new testament must be taken as literally true. Thats a much higher bar set for it than simple allegories about universal truth.

And most certainly other people also have truth. There are a group of things called universal social mores that exist, which are found in literally every culture on earth. They include bans on theft, killing without reason, and incest, especially between mother and son, as well as a few other things. Also, no developed human culture has ever been discovered without a concept of religion. But because I do not believe man to be in a fallen state I dont believe i need some one specific rout to truth that will save me from some fiery pit.

Well, you didn’t actually answer my question which was: Is it possible that the “Is All” could reveal Himself (shortcut again) in one way to one group but more fully to another group for reason that may be known to him alone?

And since you didn’t answer my question but provided additional information p), I now have another question: Where do the universal mores come from? If evolution is to be believed, then I might have an easier time surviving in this world by killing you. Non-judgmental evolution would say, “Tut, tut…no problem - survival of the fittest, and all that.”

However, since we DO see certain things universally true, it only stands to reason that they were included in our makeup BY DESIGN.

Thoughts? (Both questions…no skimping. )

 

[ffg]

I agree, universal truth is the great attracting factor of all religion, and Christianity has it.

Now we can expand on this point a little, since it’s a point of agreement.

With the understanding that truth on some scale is in religion generally as the attraction, one of the ‘Answer’s’ being provided to discuss at this site is the notion that there is a ‘fullness of truth’.

Notice the ‘Answer’ here isn’t ‘my religion not yours’ because that fight is pointless. We can both grasp the truth’s in our religion’s as foundations, and when we use them to defend our position in our religion, we would have some where we agree.

However, as we scratch our heads because it is illogical that two people in two religions are both in the true religion, we must consider this ‘fullness of truth’ possibility.

At the end of the day, if there is a truth, by definition it is 1.

1 Truth would logically come from and be housed in 1 source. I think this is often confused as different or less than our current state of ‘truthiness’. Why don’t we look at it like MORE truth to what we currently know.

Knowing this simple logic should help drive us to find that 1 source. Unless we want to keep scratching our heads as life passes us by.

 

[Brendan_64]

And seeing as Christianity is seen as a continuation of Judaism your point is irrelevant. If you believe the Bible, which I assume you do, then you believe it has in human history come to pass that the worship of Yhwh has died out completely in the world of men. So please answer me, why did he allow this? Allow his people whom he claims to love so much prostrate themselves before imaginary deities?

Yahweh is simply a name for the creator God and the one true God. His worship has certainly not died out. He is worshiped by most theists on the planet.

And why did He allow his people to worship false gods? Why does He still allow this? It is quite simple really, He gave man the gift of free-will. We are free to choose, but we will bear the consequences of our actions. God does not love His people by making them slaves to His will.

 

[Randy_Carson]

And seeing as Christianity is seen as a continuation of Judaism your point is irrelevant. If you believe the Bible, which I assume you do, then you believe it has in human history come to pass that the worship of Yhwh has died out completely in the world of men. So please answer me, why did he allow this? Allow his people whom he claims to love so much prostrate themselves before imaginary deities?

Skadi-

I’m puzzled.

Christianity is seen as a continuation of Judaism…true…so therefore, we continue to worship Yhwh…the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…just as the Hebrews did before Jesus came as prophesied. As monotheists, we worship the same God but our understanding of Him is decidedly different since He has now revealed Himself to be a trinity of three persons.

So, I don’t see that He allowed worship of Himself to die out…though, sadly, it appears that fewer and fewer do seek Him. That’s the price He is willing to pay to be loved freely and not idolized by automatons.

 

[SteveVH]

If you believe the Bible, which I assume you do, then you believe it has in human history come to pass that the worship of Yhwh has died out completely in the world of men.

Would you care to explain this comment? I know of at least 1.3 billion people who still worship YHWH. They are called Christians. This would be true of the other monotheistic religions as well. How did you arrive at such a conclusion?

 

[Skadi]

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Or heres an NT one, about the last words of Jesus.

MAT 27:46,50: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?” that is to say, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” …Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”

LUK 23:46: “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, “Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:” and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”

JOH 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished:” and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

Now I went to a catholic High School and had the good fortune of having a great theology teacher who loved apologetics. He stated on several occasions that its possible for a catholic to take the OT allegorically, but that the Gospels MUST be literal. So, if all three of these MUST be true, then what where the final words of Jesus?

I didn’t say Christianity’s survival was indicative that it was true. To stay on point, I’ll skip this for now.

We were talking about the Bible and contradiction. The bible being foundational, if that is broken, the house come’s tumbling down.

You made a comment about contradiction in the Bible, of which I think you should elaborate, it would make a great thread.

I said that people are not stupid.

If contradiction existed in the Bible, the religion would fall flat on it’s face.

We agree truth is what attracts. Well, if the Bible was contradictory in any way, the religion, especially the branches from the True Church who use it as a sole foundation would shrink rapidly.

Why? Because people don’t like to be lied to.

 

[Skadi]

Kind of a “Karma” approach?

Yes, when westerners say Karma they mean what goes around comes around, and Wiccans and other magic using pagans tend to follow whats called the law of threefold return, believing whatever they do, good or bad, comes back on them three times.

This is NOT the Hindu idea of Karma however, for Hindus Karma is not something that effects you in life, but effects who or what you are born as in your next life cycle.

 

[Skadi]

Well, you didn’t actually answer my question which was: Is it possible that the “Is All” could reveal Himself (shortcut again) in one way to one group but more fully to another group for reason that may be known to him alone?

And since you didn’t answer my question but provided additional information p), I now have another question: Where do the universal mores come from? If evolution is to be believed, then I might have an easier time surviving in this world by killing you. Non-judgmental evolution would say, “Tut, tut…no problem - survival of the fittest, and all that.”

However, since we DO see certain things universally true, it only stands to reason that they were included in our makeup BY DESIGN.

Thoughts? (Both questions…no skimping. )

Well to answer your first question, yes i guess its possible, but life is about finding ones own path towards the Is All. Finding one in which you can grow and become a better person more connected with life and the universe.

And for your second question, there are 2 possibilities. Either A) societal evolution has shown that society’s in which murder is illegal are more likely to survive ad thrive than those where murder is legal. Or B) To not kill without reason or break the other universal mores is known by all men because it is universal truth, and all men being part of the Is All, have the most basic and elemental truth within themselves.

Both actually are very good answers I think.

 

[Skadi]

Now we can expand on this point a little, since it’s a point of agreement.

With the understanding that truth on some scale is in religion generally as the attraction, one of the ‘Answer’s’ being provided to discuss at this site is the notion that there is a ‘fullness of truth’.

Notice the ‘Answer’ here isn’t ‘my religion not yours’ because that fight is pointless. We can both grasp the truth’s in our religion’s as foundations, and when we use them to defend our position in our religion, we would have some where we agree.

However, as we scratch our heads because it is illogical that two people in two religions are both in the true religion, we must consider this ‘fullness of truth’ possibility.

At the end of the day, if there is a truth, by definition it is 1.

1 Truth would logically come from and be housed in 1 source. I think this is often confused as different or less than our current state of ‘truthiness’. Why don’t we look at it like MORE truth to what we currently know.

Knowing this simple logic should help drive us to find that 1 source. Unless we want to keep scratching our heads as life passes us by.

Ahhh a very good point, however I believe in many routs leading to the ultimate truth. And in fact the ultimate truth is, in my opinion, totally beyond human capacity. However you are correct, the truth mus flow from a single source, and I would call that the Is All.

 

[Skadi]

We are free to choose, but we will bear the consequences of our actions. God does not love His people by making them slaves to His will.

And there we go, my gods do the same.

 

[Skadi]

Skadi-

I’m puzzled.

Christianity is seen as a continuation of Judaism…true…so therefore, we continue to worship Yhwh…the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…just as the Hebrews did before Jesus came as prophesied. As monotheists, we worship the same God but our understanding of Him is decidedly different since He has now revealed Himself to be a trinity of three persons.

So, I don’t see that He allowed worship of Himself to die out…though, sadly, it appears that fewer and fewer do seek Him. That’s the price He is willing to pay to be loved freely and not idolized by automatons.

This is for both you and SteveVH.

When god appears to Abraham, it seams as if there are no more followers of God left, which is why he instructs Abraham to go to the holy land, and that his decedents will be Gods people. So somewhere in the bible between Noah and Abraham it seems that humanity has abandoned God. Thats why God comes to Abraham.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Or heres an NT one, about the last words of Jesus.

MAT 27:46,50: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?” that is to say, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” …Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”

LUK 23:46: “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, “Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:” and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”

JOH 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished:” and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

Now I went to a catholic High School and had the good fortune of having a great theology teacher who loved apologetics. He stated on several occasions that its possible for a catholic to take the OT allegorically, but that the Gospels MUST be literal. So, if all three of these MUST be true, then what where the final words of Jesus?

Well, I see you’ve been doing some Internet research.

Me, too.

Matthew never actually says that he recorded the last words of Jesus, so that really only leaves a problem with Luke and John.

Matthew and Luke were not at the crucifixion; of the gospel writers, only John was personally present. The others got their accounts from eye-witnesses, and since John was exiled to Patmos, I don’t think that either Matthew or Luke spoke with him. The eye-witnesses who were available were the women who followed Jesus, and these may have been standing in different places at different times during the long ordeal that Jesus endured. Thus, they may have simply heard different bits of what Jesus was saying as He was dying.

All that aside, however, one attempt at integration of the three accounts would run like this:

It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.” Later… Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips and offered it to Jesus to drink. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” [referring to the Passover which had begun on Thursday night - Jesus’ consumption of the wine constituted the fourth cup of the Passover which he had not consumed in the upper room]. The rest said [implying Jesus was not yet dead], "Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him. And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” he breathed his last and He gave up his spirit.