Another Ask-A-Pagan thread

[jmjconder]

…you are saying your faith and hope are founded no many levels and gods…

If you have more than one source of faith and hope - what is your assurance that at any given moment you have relied on the best one.

As a Catholic…I rely on one God and can always count on one Divine source. Where does is the D(d)ivine come in for you?

 

[Skadi]

…you are saying your faith and hope are founded no many levels and gods…

If you have more than one source of faith and hope - what is your assurance that at any given moment you have relied on the best one.

As a Catholic…I rely on one God and can always count on one Divine source. Where does is the D(d)ivine come in for you?

I do the best i can, men are given strength at birth for the trials of life. The gods can help, but a mans fate is fixed and not even the gods can change that. Sorry if I havn’t answered your question but i dont realy understand it. I dont expect the gods to do things for me.

 

[Paragon468]

What are the typical stances on issues such as abortion, euthanasia, or gay marriage for pagans? I understand there are many different kinds of paganism, but do most agree on these issues for the most part, or is it more diverse?

 

[Skadi]

What are the typical stances on issues such as abortion, euthanasia, or gay marriage for pagans? I understand there are many different kinds of paganism, but do most agree on these issues for the most part, or is it more diverse?

Your correct, its a very broad category. I would say overall pagans are large majority Liberal with a respectably sized libertarian contingent. However its tough to go across the board like that. I have been amazed several times by various political questions on pagan forums. I wouldn’t have though in 1000 years i would see a forum full of Wiccans, Hippies, and New Agers come out so pro second amendment.

Germanic Paganism/Asatru is considered the “Conservative” branch of paganism on the political spectrum, according to the stereotypes the Wiccans and Celts are dancing naked on acid with flowers in their hair while we are sitting around polishing off kegs with bald heads and swastika tattoos. Of course thats exaggeration (I dont even recognize the skinheads as true pagans, as there is absolutely no historical basis for it) but it holds a bit of truth. Germanic Paganism is a serious outlier from other pagan faiths, in that it has more men then women and It has a very large following in certain rural areas. Most Germanic pagans I know are Libertarians or AnCaps like myself.

Personally on those issues,

1: I consider abortion murder, It only fly’s with me when there is serious danger to the mother or the child is beyond saving. If the mother couldnt properly support the child I could probably accept that to, but with the availability of adoption and child support in the west the conditions to justify that are non-existent.

That said, I dont consider abortion at all when im involved in politics, its an issue that dose not concern me and Im not interesting in forcing that view on others.

2:I am anti-abortion but i very strongly support right to die. Government mandated euthanasia is disgusting, but if the person has expressed a desire to die who am I to stop them? Suicide is a horrendous idea and id discourage anyone from it, but if they have sat down and though it out, then what gives me the right to stop them?

3: I totally disassociate myself from this issue, I believe the government should not be involved in wedlock at all, as it is a religious institution. Within Paganism, I realy dont care what people do, whatever floats their boat, the Sagas call homosexuality “Unmanly” (actually not just homosexuality but being the passive sexual partner) but nowhere is it per say banned. That said, I have no desire to ever attend a gay wedding. Ive had 2 gay roommates at college and im certainly done with that.

 

[JHow]

I would want to ask about your attitudes towards non- Germanic races? Since you studied history, you can likely see why I ask.

Also, just a kindly correction, “since”, rather than “sense”. Spell check doesn’t always catch everything.

 

[Gullveig]

I’ll chime in on a couple of these as well. I’m from the same general branch of paganism/heathenry as Skadi, but a hard polytheist reconstructionist.

so are the pagan ceremonies – more exciting than the roman catholic ceremonies?

Depends on what you call exciting. To me, the highlight of my year is the blot and symbel at the great moot in my region (a moot is a general meeting of heathens/Germanic pagans. There are quite a few spread out over my area of the country, so it’s a nice way to get everyone together at a central location once a year). We honor the gods and our ancestors with a ritual feast and libations of mead, tell stories of the heroes and the worthy among us. The bardics are pretty intense, we have some talented folks in the community. Because I practice oracular seidhr, which is a type of divination, the best part to me is the seidhr-workers circle with several dozen women doing the chanting and staving at once.

Do you personally use Rune Stones? Is there preference for one material over another (stone, glass, ceramic, wood, and the like)? Have you made them yourself?

I do. The material is entirely dependent on what the person who uses them wants. I have two sets that I’ve made, one out of the tip points of elk antlers and one out of stones from my family’s traditional stomping grounds in Iceland. Runes are used for more than just fortune telling, and by Icelandic tradition are worked into staves for magical purposes.

So, would you say then that you, as a pagan, believe in the existence of many gods as opposed to one or no god?

There’s a large breadth of beliefs on this subject under the pagan umbrella. Skadi is a soft polytheist, but I am a hard polytheist. I believe very strongly that the gods are their own separate entities, not archetypes or part of some sort of amalgamate whole, re: all gods are one God, all goddesses are one Goddess, etc. The closest I’m willing to come to that is the idea that some gods may cross pantheons under different names, so they are the same being, just called something different by people with a different language. I don’t even disbelieve in the Abrahamic God, I just don’t think he’s the only one or the supreme one, regardless of what the book says.

 

[Gullveig]

1. What do you really believe in? 2. do you worship a god? 3. what kind of a god, female, male, half male and half female, or half female and half male? 4. Is your god an animal or mammal. 5. Does that god of yours creates like my God? 6. Does it saves like my God. 7. Does it help like my God and all Christian God. 8. Does it have a name like our Lord; Jesus Christ the Universal King and the King of Kings? 9. Can you give a brief story about your god so I can know about it? 10. Does your god brings about peace and love like Our God us Catholic and Christians. 11. What does your god say about life; it teaching for life? 12. Does your god knows the difference between the toilet and kitchen?
   Can you answer these according to the numbers?

1. I believe in honoring the gods and my ancestors, living an honorable and virtuous life both for my own benefit and for the honor of my ancestors and the benefit of my descendants.
2. I believe and worship many gods, but I have a particular relationship with Tyr, and to a lesser extent Frigga.

3 & 4. The gods are male or female, but there are a few cases where they can take the form of either gender or an animal. Loki for instance, is a male god who took the form of a female mare and gave birth to an eight-legged foal. Generally, the crossing of the genders is considered an undesirable thing in the Norse world, though, so the gods tend to be statically either male or female.

1. Yes, we have our own creation stories wherein the gods create things. Skadi is correct that, in the Norse cosmology, there was the primordial void and the elements of fire and ice before any sentient creatures existed. However, most pagans differentiate between logos and mythos, where in logos is truth by reason (there is a scientific, objective means by which the universe was created, ie the Big Bang) and wherein mythos is truth by mysticism (there is a story about the creation of the universe that is not objectively true in the scientific sense, but which was used in the absence of technological sophistication to explain certain things and illuminating related spiritual truths).
2. We don’t believe that there is anything to be saved from. Our gods don’t expect perfection from us, they simply expect us to do our best. The misfortune dishonor brings on itself is punishment enough.
3. Yes, we believe our ancestors are very involved with what happens to us in the mortal world and we believe that the gods intervene when they deem it necessary. You can find instances of prayers being answered all throughout the lore.
4. Like the Christian God, our gods have names and also many additional descriptive names. Odinn, for instance, is the Wanderer, the All-Father, All-Wise, Grimnir, Gallows-God, Glad-of-War, and so on. Tyr, my patron, is sometimes called the Shining God, One-Handed, Guiding Star, and (humorously, sometimes) the “leavings of the wolf”. Skadi told that story in #9 when he answered it.
5. For this, I’ll share with you a small portion of the Havamal that tells of Odinn’s quest for the runes.

Hung I on that windy Tree,
Nine whole days and nights.
Stabbed through with a spear and offered to Odinn,
Myself to my own self sacrificed,
Upon that tree which no man knows
From what roots it rises to the heavens.
None brought me food or drink,
I peered down into the deep
And crying aloud, I lifted the Runes
And then fell down from there.
Ere long I bare fruit and well I throve,
I grew and waxed in wisdom.
Word following word, I found me words,
Deed following another deed, I wrought.
Hidden runes shall thought seek, interpreted signs,
Many symbols of might and power,
By the great singer painted, by the high powers fashioned,
Graved by the Utterer of Gods.

Better to ask for too little than offer too much
As if the gift should become a boon;
Better not to send than overspend.
Thus Odinn graved ere the world began.
Then he rose form the deep and came again.

1. The Germanic gods value moderation. One can have peace and still suffer tyranny. From our perspective, there are things worth fighting for, namely the safety and freedom of one’s kin. That being said, we consider peace and social order to be a desirable state of affairs. Other pagan groups have different interpretations and fall on different places in the spectrum, but I find in general that most pagans are not adverse to fighting for something that they deem worth fighting for.
2. Life is always sacred, but Christians and pagans often have different interpretations of what something being sacred actually means. In my branch anyway, the goal is not to prolong the mortal life, the goal is to live in such a way that one has no need to fear death.
3. Yes, but I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[Gullveig]

As a Catholic…I rely on one God and can always count on one Divine source. Where does is the D(d)ivine come in for you?

In my branch of heatherny/paganism, we believe that we are the mortal kin of the gods. They look out for us, but if parents were always there to catch their kids when they fell and hold their hand all the time, the kids would never grow strong and independent. Our gods want us to be able to function on our own. They aren’t helicopter parents that hover over us. They step in when they are really needed, but on the whole, we are given some basic instructions and set loose to figure the rest out on our own. In such a way, and by teaching each other, we acquire useful wisdom. I’ve never really seen this as an undesirable or lacking state of affairs, personally.

What are the typical stances on issues such as abortion, euthanasia, or gay marriage for pagans? I understand there are many different kinds of paganism, but do most agree on these issues for the most part, or is it more diverse?

The opinions are quite diverse. I agree that the vast majority of pagans tend to be more liberal politically. My branch in particular is quite a bit more conservative than the average pagan, but still probably less conservative than the average Catholic.

From what I observe among Asatru, abortion is a relative non-issue, but this is probably because it derives heavily from the Icelandic model, which holds that the soul is bestowed when the infant is named and formally accepted by the family. Most of the heathens I know feel that abortion should be avoided if at all possible, but that there are instances where it is permissible, such as hardship to the family or for the life of the mother.

For euthanasia, there are examples of it in our lore. Most Asatru consider it to be a personal decision, not something to be forced on another person, but not something we have the right to prohibit to another person either.

For gay marriage, that’s a sticky issue within Asatru, though I would say the majority of pagans would support gay marriage. Personally, I think we just need to decide whether we’re going to treat marriage as a civil issue or a religious one, instead of this hybrid we’ve got going on in American culture, and go with it. Either way would be fine for me. The concept of “ergi”, or unmanliness, in the lore is extremely complicated, but the best scholarship to date indicates that it was more of a cultural adaptation to population pressure than a religiously motivated belief. Odinn himself could be accused of ergi for learning women’s magic, but that doesn’t seem to have affected his status as a chief god.

 

[Alizarin]

Personally, I think we just need to decide whether we’re going to treat marriage as a civil issue or a religious one, instead of this hybrid we’ve got going on in American culture, and go with it. Either way would be fine for me.

Amen to that.

 

[Skadi]

I would want to ask about your attitudes towards non- Germanic races? Since you studied history, you can likely see why I ask.

Also, just a kindly correction, “since”, rather than “sense”. Spell check doesn’t always catch everything.

Sorry, im a terrible speller.

And I have no problem with anyone based on race or ethnicity. Im proud of my German ancestry but there is absolutely no reason another person shouldn’t be proud of Irish, English, Japanese, Arabic, Indian, or any other ancestry. Just you standing here right now is a testament to your ancestors, the fact that you were born at all makes you a monument to their survival. They lived through everything life had thrown at them, at least long enough to lead to you.

Personally, i cant stand the Neo-Nazi “pagans”, I assume its much like the feelings alot of Christians have for the Westboro Baptist Church. A group hijacking your religions name to spread a message of hate with little to no foundation in the actual religion the claim to represent. There is no place in any recorded Germanic text where racism is promoted. The Vikings raided and traded with almost every ethnic group from Belfast to Baghdad in their day.

There are actually a couple Hitler quotes specifically about the Pagan Reconstructions in Germany where he talks about how he cant stand them. The Occult that is often brought up with the Nazi regime is far more related to Himler than Hitler. The parts of national socialism that resemble paganism actually come mostly from Wagner’s “Ring Cycle”.

 

[Skadi]

Amen to that.

Totally agreed.

 

[Randy_Carson]

All good and valid points. However, we must remember that massive amounts of information has been lost over the centuries. The reason the Gospels survive is because of their status as religious texts of the dominant religion. During the last 2000 years they have been dozens of wars, conquests, sacks, and purges that have destroyed ancient texts. For instance, Emperor Julian the Apostate’s famous apologetics masterpiece “Against the Galileans” was almost destroyed by Christian purges in the 5th or 6th century, with only portions of the first book still remaining (Ironically because they were quoted at length in the works of a Christian Bishop attempting to refute him).

Okay. But that doesn’t change the purpose for which they were written, does it? In other words, the author didn’t set out to write a religious text; he set out to write an orderly account for someone after having done some research. So, sure…the texts survived down through history because LOTS of people thought, “Wow, this is really good…can I get a copy?” and then later, “Wow, this is really good…I wonder if God inspired it?” and so forth.

We have no idea what information could have existed and sense been lost, either by chance or purposeful destruction. I know Christians believe that the holy spirit guided the establishment of church canon, but looking at it historically it seems as though it may have been more of an attempt to shun books whos content particular leaders didn’t like. The official canon became the Bible, what was left out became the Apocrypha, and looking at that creates even more contradiction about the life of Jesus.

Well, doesn’t it seem right that the Church should evaluate various writings to determine what is accurate and what isn’t? My signature below applies to scripture just as much as it does to the papacy.

In the end, there is just so much uncertainty around the life of Jesus that I cannot support the idea he was divine. The books written about him by early Christians conflict, the choice of the official canon of the bible is shady at best, and who knows what other works may have been destroyed as heresy by past Christians. Combine that with the tenancy of ancient authors to exaggerate, distort, misrepresent and in other ways alter stories and its just a bit to messy for me.

Well, I could go through all that, but it doesn’t sound like you’re ready. That’s okay.

Personaly, I like to think he was probably a pretty nice guy, a wandering Rabbi, who wound up getting screwed over by the system. If he claimed divinity or not, I dont know, if he was actually crucified or not, I dont know. But I am convinced he was a man, mortal and all, and did not raise from the dead.

Okay. Jesus was a “pretty nice guy” in your estimation.

Here’s a question worth puzzling over: What did the eyewitnesses who spent three years’ with him report concerning his claim to be God?

I mean, you can say what you want about the four gospels, but at the end of the day, they are four separate people who are saying in effect, “I was there. I saw it. I heard it. This is how it went down.”

If Jesus didn’t claim to be divine, what benefit did Matthew, Mark, Luke and John gain from claiming that he did?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Soft polytheism is a mix of polytheism and pantheism. It is the belief that there is a pantheistic, impersonal god, who may reveal itself or be partial made up of various personal gods. Hindus are soft polytheists.

From Wikipedia:

“Soft” polytheism, which holds that gods may be aspects of only one god, psychological archetypes or personifications of natural forces. Soft Polytheism is prevalent in New Age and syncretic currents of Neopaganism, as are psychological interpretations of deities as archetypes of the human psyche.

So, based on what you wrote and from Wikipedia, for you, a soft polytheist, there is one God with many ways through which He/She/It is manifested or made known to us?

Again, there is one God, but you choose to worship aspects of this God which are personal gods that appeal to you?

 

[JHow]

Sorry, im a terrible speller.

And I have no problem with anyone based on race or ethnicity. Im proud of my German ancestry but there is absolutely no reason another person shouldn’t be proud of Irish, English, Japanese, Arabic, Indian, or any other ancestry. Just you standing here right now is a testament to your ancestors, the fact that you were born at all makes you a monument to their survival. They lived through everything life had thrown at them, at least long enough to lead to you.

Personally, i cant stand the Neo-Nazi “pagans”, I assume its much like the feelings alot of Christians have for the Westboro Baptist Church. A group hijacking your religions name to spread a message of hate with little to no foundation in the actual religion the claim to represent. There is no place in any recorded Germanic text where racism is promoted. The Vikings raided and traded with almost every ethnic group from Belfast to Baghdad in their day.

There are actually a couple Hitler quotes specifically about the Pagan Reconstructions in Germany where he talks about how he cant stand them. The Occult that is often brought up with the Nazi regime is far more related to Himler than Hitler. The parts of national socialism that resemble paganism actually come mostly from Wagner’s “Ring Cycle”.

I love the Ring, and also hate the Hitler connection. I figure my ancestors were okay, but entirely human. They include a few drunks, criminal types, nut balls, and cranks. Some had questionable hygiene.

 

[Skadi]

Okay. Jesus was a “pretty nice guy” in your estimation.

Here’s a question worth puzzling over: What did the eyewitnesses who spent three years’ with him report concerning his claim to be God?

I mean, you can say what you want about the four gospels, but at the end of the day, they are four separate people who are saying in effect, “I was there. I saw it. I heard it. This is how it went down.”

If Jesus didn’t claim to be divine, what benefit did Matthew, Mark, Luke and John gain from claiming that he did?

Legitimacy. I dont know how many times ive heard the circular argument that Jesus is god because he said he was, and I would be surprised if the Romans heard the same thing.

I’ll pose you an example of how things become warped and distorted, especially when perceived divinity is involved. While few people have ever heard of the Battle of Kadesh its actually one of the more significant battles in human history. It was the largest chariot battle ever fought, the Kursk or the ancient world, taking place in Syria in May 1247 BC. Its real significance is that it was a indecisive but costly battle that wound up foiling Ramesses II’s campaign against the Hittites, and later that year the two empires signed what is the first written peace treaty in recorded history.

But whats realy important is that the Egyptian account of the battle is absolutely ridiculous. The Hittites did not leave an exact account of the battle itself, but referenced it along side other events of the time, so we dont know exactly what happened. However, historians are pretty dammed sure the details of the Egyptian story arent reliable. according to the Egyptian story…

The Egyptians push north into Syria and capture local spies who warn them that the Hittites and their allies are close. However, it is to late and the Hittites ambush the leading Egyptian column which has pulled ahead of the rest of Pharaohs army. Pharaoh leads the second column ahead to aid the first but they are driven back into their camp.

Now heres where it gets crazy. Faced with a ridiculously large army, Ramesses mounts his chariot alone and singlehandedly kills several thousand Hittite soldiers crushing their attack.

Pretty realistic right? So, if the inscriptions depicting this battle were intended as historical and not religious texts, then why were the events obviously exaggerated if not in some cases wholly fabricated? Well, the Egyptians saw Pharaoh as a living god. Why could exaggeration or flat out falsification not have happened with the Jesus story?

 

[Skadi]

From Wikipedia:

“Soft” polytheism, which holds that gods may be aspects of only one god, psychological archetypes or personifications of natural forces. Soft Polytheism is prevalent in New Age and syncretic currents of Neopaganism, as are psychological interpretations of deities as archetypes of the human psyche.

So, based on what you wrote and from Wikipedia, for you, a soft polytheist, there is one God with many ways through which He/She/It is manifested or made known to us?

Again, there is one God, but you choose to worship aspects of this God which are personal gods that appeal to you?

Yes, you could say that. I do believe the dietys are personal entitys, forming relationships with various peoples, but i also believe all life in the universe is part of an ultimate entity. Its not a particularly common belief among Asatru or German pagans, more of a Celtic thing. If you know what Neoplatonism is, I lie somewhere between what you have described and that, the real Neoplatonism not that 19th century BS.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Legitimacy. I dont know how many times ive heard the circular argument that Jesus is god because he said he was, and I would be surprised if the Romans heard the same thing.

No, that’s not what I was asking.

I asked if you were familiar with what the eyewitnesses wrote about Jesus’ claims. Are you aware of what they said He said?

Well, the Egyptians saw Pharaoh as a living god. Why could exaggeration or flat out falsification not have happened with the Jesus story?

Well, I suppose that Pharaoh had a lot to gain by making himself sound truly divine because he was still around to benefit from the adulation. But Jesus ascended into heaven and had nothing to gain from exaggerated stories, and since none of Jesus’ early followers had any real positions of power, what did they benefit from making the whole thing up?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, you could say that. I do believe the dietys are personal entitys, forming relationships with various peoples, but i also believe all life in the universe is part of an ultimate entity. Its not a particularly common belief among Asatru or German pagans, more of a Celtic thing. If you know what Neoplatonism is, I lie somewhere between what you have described and that, the real Neoplatonism not that 19th century BS.

So, is there a personal god or manifestation of the One that you worship? If so, what can you tell us about him/her/it?

 

[ffg]

Legitimacy. I dont know how many times ive heard the circular argument that Jesus is god because he said he was, and I would be surprised if the Romans heard the same thing.

So, if the inscriptions depicting this battle were intended as historical and not religious texts, then why were the events obviously exaggerated if not in some cases wholly fabricated? Well, the Egyptians saw Pharaoh as a living god. Why could exaggeration or flat out falsification not have happened with the Jesus story?

Talk is cheap isn’t it?

It would sure help to see events that might lead to the conclusion that Jesus is God. Witnesses recounting their experience would help since I’m not that old and don’t live over there.

With regard to your example, since ‘few’ have heard about it, should we trust your writing accuracy about something that may or may not have happened in 1247, and not trust people who wrote about their life experience at a different point in time?

 

[Gullveig]

Sorry, im a terrible speller.

And I have no problem with anyone based on race or ethnicity. Im proud of my German ancestry but there is absolutely no reason another person shouldn’t be proud of Irish, English, Japanese, Arabic, Indian, or any other ancestry. Just you standing here right now is a testament to your ancestors, the fact that you were born at all makes you a monument to their survival. They lived through everything life had thrown at them, at least long enough to lead to you.

Personally, i cant stand the Neo-Nazi “pagans”, I assume its much like the feelings alot of Christians have for the Westboro Baptist Church. A group hijacking your religions name to spread a message of hate with little to no foundation in the actual religion the claim to represent. There is no place in any recorded Germanic text where racism is promoted. The Vikings raided and traded with almost every ethnic group from Belfast to Baghdad in their day.

There are actually a couple Hitler quotes specifically about the Pagan Reconstructions in Germany where he talks about how he cant stand them. The Occult that is often brought up with the Nazi regime is far more related to Himler than Hitler. The parts of national socialism that resemble paganism actually come mostly from Wagner’s “Ring Cycle”.

This. Every family has the basketcase relations that no one wants to talk about, and Germanic paganism is no different. The racism angle is complete non-historical. I think it’s ridiculous and insulting to our ancestors, which is why I participate in a prison outreach program to try and keep people out of the hands of the Aryan Brotherhood and other such abominations.