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majick275
Guest
Please look at the language and context. Satan was an angel, created by God who rebelled.
Joseph did not have sex with Mary.
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Zakuska
Guest
Doesnt explain his contempt toward is Mother and his Brothers and Sisters.
Nice try no Cigar.
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Zakuska
Guest
So was Christ… the Church fathers called him the Cheif of the Angels of God. And so does the Book of Revelation. As well as Colossians. not to Mention Proverbs 8.
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arieh0310
Guest
I have heard those arguments and they are pretty lame. The only place I see Christ showing contempt for his family is at the Cross (if he had uterine brothers, that is).
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majick275
Guest
Jesus is God. That is far different than being a CREATION of God like the angels. Having him be the chief of the angels does not show that he is one, only that he is over them.
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Zakuska
Guest
Who was the “angel” that spoke to John in Revelation… He Identifies himself as the Lord.
Christ is the Cheif of the sons of God. Duet 32:7-9
Christ is the Cheif of the sons of God. Duet 32:7-9
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Zakuska
Guest
Matt 12
46 ¶ While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Matt 13
55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mark 6
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
John 2
12 ¶ After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
Acts 1
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Gal 1
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.
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arieh0310
Guest
from the link I referred you to:
*
Nonetheless, and despite Tradition, there are four people that some Protestants claim are the blood brothers of Jesus, an idea which comes from Mark 6:3 which says that Jesus is “the brother of James, and Joses, and of Jude and Simon.” But to find out who the real mother of these four are, look at the following:
Putting all these together, we can cross off Joses and James the Less as being Jesus’ blood brothers because their mother is the wife of Cleophas.
We can cross Simon off the list because Mark 3:18 tells us he is a Canaanite, “And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite…”
Jude, we are told in Jude 1:1, is the “servant of Jesus Christ and the brother of James.”
Crossing just one name off the list is enough to prove the point that the Hebrew word “brother” means many things (just as the word does in English today, my “brother or sister in Christ!”) and to prove that this is so even in the very particular context of Mark 6:3. *
And, I see no disrepect in what Jesus says about his mother and bretheren
*
Nonetheless, and despite Tradition, there are four people that some Protestants claim are the blood brothers of Jesus, an idea which comes from Mark 6:3 which says that Jesus is “the brother of James, and Joses, and of Jude and Simon.” But to find out who the real mother of these four are, look at the following:
Code:
* Matthew 27: 55-56 tells us of three women at the Cross: "And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children."
* Mark 15:40 tells us of the three women there, "There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome."
* John 19:25 is the most inclusive, telling us of four women's presence, "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene." (Note here the reference to Mary's "sister" who's named Mary!)We can cross Simon off the list because Mark 3:18 tells us he is a Canaanite, “And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite…”
Jude, we are told in Jude 1:1, is the “servant of Jesus Christ and the brother of James.”
Crossing just one name off the list is enough to prove the point that the Hebrew word “brother” means many things (just as the word does in English today, my “brother or sister in Christ!”) and to prove that this is so even in the very particular context of Mark 6:3. *
And, I see no disrepect in what Jesus says about his mother and bretheren
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Zakuska
Guest
Actually I disagree And see some wishful thinking going on.
This next verse is very Problematic…
John does not say that Mary the wife of Cleophas is the Mother of Anybody.
It Also seems to me that the more Logical conclusion is that Mary’s sister was named Salome. (I will have to check her Gospel for this)
BD Cleophas
Mentioned (John 19: 25) to distinguish Mary of Clopas (i.e., probably Mary, wife of Cleophas) from two other Marys.
BD Mary
(3) [The mother] of James and Joses, at the cross (Matt. 27: 56; Mark 15: 40); called the wife of Cleophas (John 19: 25); at the burial (Matt. 27: 61); “the other Mary” (Mark 15: 47); at the tomb in the morning (Matt. 28: 1; Mark 16: 1; Luke 24: 10).
Sorry but the explanations leave more holes than a block of swiss cheese.
The very context of Mark is of Blood relations other wise the peoples objection to the Lord in his own town makes no sense.
3 Women identified…
3 Women Identified…
This next verse is very Problematic…
If Mary’s Sister is named Mary as the note says then this only shows 3 women. If Mary’s sister is unamed and merely mentioned then yes the verse can be read to show 4 women.
I beleive this is the Fallacy of Jumping to conculsions.
John does not say that Mary the wife of Cleophas is the Mother of Anybody.
It Also seems to me that the more Logical conclusion is that Mary’s sister was named Salome. (I will have to check her Gospel for this)
BD Cleophas
Mentioned (John 19: 25) to distinguish Mary of Clopas (i.e., probably Mary, wife of Cleophas) from two other Marys.
BD Mary
(3) [The mother] of James and Joses, at the cross (Matt. 27: 56; Mark 15: 40); called the wife of Cleophas (John 19: 25); at the burial (Matt. 27: 61); “the other Mary” (Mark 15: 47); at the tomb in the morning (Matt. 28: 1; Mark 16: 1; Luke 24: 10).
Ah… another false assumption. was not Peters Name Simon before it was changed? This is a list of the Apostles. Not Christs Blood Brothers.
Again the author is inconsistant becuase here he is making us think the brother/sister is in the spiritual sense. Then he makes us think that Mary’s sister (John 19: 25) is her “Blood Sister” I could just as easily show that mary’s “sister” was just her hand maid.
Sorry but the explanations leave more holes than a block of swiss cheese.
The very context of Mark is of Blood relations other wise the peoples objection to the Lord in his own town makes no sense.
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Zakuska
Guest
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majick275
Guest
I’m not sure what you are asserting now. Your references all seem to support that Jesus did not have any literal blood siblings.
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Zakuska
Guest
No thats your wishful thinking… you are mixing the names up.
These are blood relatives or the reaction to Christ in his home town means nothing.
Tradition holds that Mary’s sister was name Salome. And She was Christs midwife.
These are blood relatives or the reaction to Christ in his home town means nothing.
Tradition holds that Mary’s sister was name Salome. And She was Christs midwife.
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arieh0310
Guest
Simon Peter is named seperately in verse 16.
Nor does any writer anywhere name the Blessed Virgin Mary the mother of anyone other than Jesus. (except I guess in Rev 12
). So, by your logic we MUST not assume Mary had any other children than our Saviour.
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majick275
Guest
read the Catholic position here :
catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp
It’s well documented so if you disagree with elements of it you at least see where we are coming from. I don’t see how you can read this and think that Mary had other children but then Most early LDS prophets and apostles taught Jesus had wives and children so who knows what people can extract from this.
catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp
It’s well documented so if you disagree with elements of it you at least see where we are coming from. I don’t see how you can read this and think that Mary had other children but then Most early LDS prophets and apostles taught Jesus had wives and children so who knows what people can extract from this.
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Zakuska
Guest
So he is… my bad.
Christ calls the Canaanite woman a dirty Dog.
Matt. 15: 27
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
Yet Mark calls her a Greek.
Mark 7
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
So Apparently being cannanite has nothing to do with race or blood lines.
But heres the problem with Canaanite in Mark.
Christ calls the Canaanite woman a dirty Dog.
Matt. 15: 27
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
Yet Mark calls her a Greek.
Mark 7
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
So Apparently being cannanite has nothing to do with race or blood lines.
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arieh0310
Guest
I fail to see how that is relevant. If Simon was his uterine brother why was he also a Canaanite? Did he grow up in a Canaanite foster home? Did Mary and Joseph send him away to a Canaanite boarding school?
We only need to prove once that “bretheren” had a more inclusive usage in this culture to call into question the rest of Christ’s “bretheren”. I think it was been proven multiple times.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Zakuska,
Why do you keep inserting the word “dirty”? Jesus never said that word. This inserting of words into scripture is a deceptive tactic I see Mormons employing on this forum.
Are you authorized to “correct” scripture the way JS did?
Why do you keep inserting the word “dirty”? Jesus never said that word. This inserting of words into scripture is a deceptive tactic I see Mormons employing on this forum.
Are you authorized to “correct” scripture the way JS did?
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Zakuska
Guest
The Jews called anyone not Jewish “dirty” and unclean. It reflects exaclty the attitude he showed to her. Until she pressed him in faith.
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Zakuska
Guest
But the very tactic you use to prove “bretheren” also disproves you premis from the get go.
Why is the Second Mary in John verse said to be Mary’s “sister”?
Why is that a uterine connection and the Christs brother is not?
Its a double standard.
You have no proff… all you have is very weak plausible deniability.
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