Another Gospel

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BJRumph:
Did Isaiah “lead” the OT Church? Jeremiah? Daniel perhaps? John the Baptist? No, so then where do you get the idea (aside from Smith) that a “Prophet” must lead Christ’s church as its sole difinitive leader? There is not a single NT in the world that says Christ mandated it…

Also, was Paul, then, not an apostle in your veiw? he certainly was not one of the 12, but definitely considered himself an apostle. Yet, your insistence that there must be 12 Apostles means you cannot consider him to be one, as he would have been #13. But of course, such a point is moot, as your (LDS) concept of what an Apostle is is thouroughly distinct from what it was, and is accepted as by the RCC (and resulting sects as well).

Just because you are willing to accept definitions and positions that you feel support your beleifs, does not make them actually support or provide “evidence” for them.
Barnaubus is called an Apostle at this same time and Judas had been replaced by Mathias. So we at least have 14 Apostles all at the same time. Its also very possible that the other man who had lost the straw-draw was an APsotle at this time because he accompanies Paul and Barnbus from Jeruslam. So we have possible 15 at the same time. Intrestingly Peter James and John seem to constitute a a quroum of 3 at the churches head then there appears to be 12 under them . So 15 Apostles at the head of the NT church.

Same as the LDS. 😉

Moses had this same basic infastructure. 12 representatives over each of the tribes then the 70 elders who accompanied him and the other 2 (Note the 3 in a quroum head at the church of Moses) to the Mount.

Christ also called 70 elders just as Moses had.

Luke 10:1

The structure is the same in the LDS church… and is blindingly missing from the Catholic.

At the Time of Iasiah Jeremiah etc. was not the Church in apostasy? Would we expect to see the structure. Yet when Christ was brought before the Sanhedran there where seventy elders who had been appointed. Again the manifestation of the structure is the same even in this Apostate circumstances.

Even the esseens of DSS fame had twelve elders at their head.
 
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Zakuska:
Theosis was the doctrine that won the day
Yawn, here we go again. The testamony of the early Church was thoroughly Catholic in its theology (Eastern Orthodox at worse if you explain away the papacy and take into account that theosis is more well defined in EO doctrine). You pull one doctrine, namely that we will become partakers in His divine nature, and over inflate it to try to show LDS peculiarities. Yet, at the same time you absolutely ignore the mountains of evidence that point to EVERY Catholic doctrine as being authentic, primitive Christianity.
 
Except for the fact… they did all this with Human councils and without the arm of the Lord.
And you have some proof, other than your faith in their human claims, that your religion does it any other way? Of course not. You cannot assert anything that you deny to them without appealing to faith driven pseudo-history of the ninteenth century.

But then, your faith asserts the existance of a “god” who is overpowered by his creation (see 2 Nephi), and we mere mortals continually thwart his designs. He can neither establish a church without its utter and complete failing, nor can he even establish eternal doctrines that cannot be overcome by even the weakest of men (in the lds estimation). Yet somehow his “servant” the Prophet, can somehow accomplish something God could not, that is: never leading the church astray or into apostasy… According to your religion, he is not even capable of true “creation”, being merely an organizer of materials already present, not due any real reverence as our Father or Creator, aside from the raw fear-mongering power he supposedly weilds, as even our “form” which was made in his image was not even something he designed or created, merely inherited from his god…

Still think your “god” is the Judeo-Christian God? Even the polytheistic “tribal god Yaweh” of ancient palenstine/caanan as posited by secular archeologists or controversial historians like Margaret Barker, is more powerful than your god. Please…

Yes, the lds gospel, when the PR spin and obfuscation is removed, laying naked in its shame before the Lord, is truly a different Gospel than what God, Himself, delivered, on every level that it can be defined as a “restored” distinction from the others who claim the same.

I forgive the LDS church, and all its members (knowing they themselves are deceived), for the sins it perpetuated against me and my family; but for its sins to others which it continues to commit (and which I have no power to forgive), “May the Lord rebuke thee”.

Caritas numquam excidit
Inter arma caritas
 
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Zakuska:
Actually I posit that No prophets and the lack of the Spirit of revelation constitutes proof of the Apostasy.

Christians stopped having prophets and revelation 2000 years ago.

Dan 11
17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

Gregory the great, corrupted the church.

Actually there is a precise date for the Apostasy and it was given by more than just LDS. Calvin Wesley and Luther all favored 570AD, so did many early LDS leaders. And so do I.

All the documentation including over 1500 years of bible comentary can be had right here:

whyprophets.com
That’s because Christ was the final revelation. There was no need for prophets and/or revelations after that.
 
It is continuously funny to watch lds use apostates, and apostate-apostates (both according to THEIR definitions) to try and dredge up support for their peculiar heresies, all the while twisting and redefining those “evidences” far beyond what their originating authors would hardly recognize, let alone agree with.

Theosis is nothing like the deification process of the lds religion (which until now, the local lds were happier to refute was even an lds doctrine. Again, Zak, your doctrinal “honesty” is most appreciated by your audience for its fresh “truthfulness” that had been missing for some months here). At the most basic, fundamental, level, your “I bind God to make me a God because I have fulfilled the covenant” is a very far cry from “God will extend His Grace to us, that we may be transformed and elevated above our current fallen human state, possessing such glory that the pagans would call us “gods””.
 
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BJRumph:
“God will extend His Grace to us, that we may be transformed and elevated above our current fallen human state, possessing such glory that the pagans would call us “gods””.
BJ is a Catholic, he says some will call us gods, why would people call us gods if we weren’t really gods, that means we will be gods. Ah ha, the Catholic Church teaches LDS deification!!!

Oh wait, I’m not an LDS patristic “scholar”.
 
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mjf001:
That’s because Christ was the final revelation. There was no need for prophets and/or revelations after that.
Hmm… So since John the Revelator wrote his book after Christ came… following your Logic we can rip that and all of Pauls letters our of our Bible! Whoa hoo!

I guess we can all go home now. :rolleyes:
 
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BJRumph:
It is continuously funny to watch lds use apostates, and apostate-apostates (both according to THEIR definitions) to try and dredge up support for their peculiar heresies, all the while twisting and redefining those “evidences” far beyond what their originating authors would hardly recognize, let alone agree with.

Theosis is nothing like the deification process of the lds religion (which until now, the local lds were happier to refute was even an lds doctrine. Again, Zak, your doctrinal “honesty” is most appreciated by your audience for its fresh “truthfulness” that had been missing for some months here). At the most basic, fundamental, level, your “I bind God to make me a God because I have fulfilled the covenant” is a very far cry from “God will extend His Grace to us, that we may be transformed and elevated above our current fallen human state, possessing such glory that the pagans would call us “gods””.
Glad to know CS Lewis was a Pagan.

👍
 
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Zakuska:
Hmm… So since John the Revelator wrote his book after Christ came… following your Logic we can rip that and all of Pauls letters our of our Bible! Whoa hoo!

I guess we can all go home now. :rolleyes:
Have you read paul’s letters? These are teaching letters, instructions to local church leaders, scriptural exegesis. They are NOT LDS style revelations from the prophet. (otherwise they would have come from Peter right?) The revelation of John is a combination of things, more pualine style letters and his apocalyptic vision. God gave that to us through him without any evidence of him being called to the office of a prophet.
 
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Zakuska:
Glad to know CS Lewis was a Pagan.

👍
So are we elevating an anglican novelist to ECF status? He wrote good books and seemed pretty knowledgeable of Christianity but let’s not get carried away.
 
thought the saying was: "That dog won’t hunt
😃 Right. Either way, the LDS position will neither hunt nor bark. And trying to get a hold of it is like chasing one’s own tail.
 
Dear Zakuska;

I went to your link and read through the “mountains” of historical evidence that are cited on the page. There are no facts supporting the speculative conclusions set forth in support of a belief in a “restored” church. It is the most convoluted argument I have tried to wrap my brain around in a long time. Here’s a great example of how the web-page’s logic is “supported.”
WhyProphets Website:
The Great Apostasy:
History shows that after the apostles died, the Christian church slowly declined, and declined, and declined… did the Bible prophesy of this? Did it indicate that the truth would be lost, and have to be restored again ready for Jesus to return?
Another problem with your conclusion is that if the Apostasy occurred in 570 A.D. wouldn’t the church’s history up to that point mirror the LDS church. Where are the great LDS temples of antiquity - where baaptisms for the dead occurred in large numbers? Where’s the evidence of “sealing” ceremonies performed by the Apostles and the bishops of antiquity? What about ancient “temple recommend” documents? Restrictions on entry to worship? sacred christian temple garments? Nothing, right? Hmmm? Looks to me like the Early Church Fathers were more Catholic than they were LDS or any other protestant denomination or offshoot.
 
Robert in SD:
Another problem with your conclusion is that if the Apostasy occurred in 570 A.D. wouldn’t the church’s history up to that point mirror the LDS church.
One thing that should be glaringly obvious is that Catholics do not need a “seer stone” to pull out Catholic theology and ecclesiology from the writing of the ECFs. I would agree with Robert that the arguments are convoluted and unprovable.

There are thousands of examples of non-Catholic christians studying their way into the Catholic Church by reading early church writings (me being one of them, even though I wanted the Catholic Church to be wrong). Are there any examples of a non-LDS person studying his way into the LDS faith using the ECF writings? I highly doubt it.
 
Robert in SD
Another problem with your conclusion is that if the Apostasy occurred in 570 A.D. wouldn’t the church’s history up to that point mirror the LDS church. Where are the great LDS temples of antiquity - where baaptisms for the dead occurred in large numbers? Where’s the evidence of “sealing” ceremonies performed by the Apostles and the bishops of antiquity? What about ancient “temple recommend” documents? Restrictions on entry to worship? sacred christian temple garments? Nothing, right? Hmmm? Looks to me like the Early Church Fathers were more Catholic than they were LDS or any other protestant denomination or offshoot.
  1. Theosis - Deification of Man was what won the debate against Arianism at Nicea.
  2. Do you really want my list of Baptism for the dead articles?
  3. Was not Paul nearly strung up for taking unwashed Greeks into the temple? (Acts 21: 28)
Here is a compilation of some of my favorite ECF quotes on the Unique LDS doctrines found prior to 570AD.
fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=10051

Here is a Discussion of the Wide spread practice of Baptisms for the dead.
fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=10904

And hear is a huge thread (21 pages) on 1st/2nd Century LDS teachings found in the ECFs.
fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=10807
 
Whats wrong with fair sources?

All of the Primary sources they are linking are Christian writtings.

“Search ALL things; hold fast that which is good” – Saul aka Paul

Since you seem to disagree with Paul… would you like me to post a few? (However: then the Mod might get mad at me.)

Also the people who are participating on those threads with me are… Catholic.
 
An old post of a good Catholic friend of mine…

Thanks to Ave Maria:
Concerning baptism for the dead, a curious and difficult passage in St. Paul’s Epistle has given rise to some controversy. The Apostle says: “Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptized for them?” (I Cor., xv, 29), There seems to be no question here of any such absurd custom as conferring baptism on corpses, as was practiced later by some heretical sects. It has been conjectured that this otherwise unknown usage of the Corinthians consisted in some living person receiving a symbolic baptism as representing another who had died with the desire of becoming a Christian, but had been prevented from realizing his wish for baptism by an unforeseen death. Those who give this explanation say that St. Paul merely refers to this custom of the Corinthians as an argumentum ad hominem, when discussing the resurrection of the dead, without approving the usage mentioned,
So some later groups started baptising corpses… but wait…
Archbishop MacEvilly in his exposition of the Epistles of St. Paul, holds a different opinion. He paraphrases St. Paul’s text as follows: “Another argument in favor of the resurrection. If the dead will not arise, what means the profession of faith in the resurrection of the dead, made at baptism? Why are we all baptized with a profession of our faith in their resurrection?” The archbishop comments, as follows: “It is almost impossible to glean anything like certainty as to the meaning of these very abstruse words, from the host of interpretations that have been hazarded regarding them (see Calmet’s Dissertation on the matter). In the first place, every interpretation referring the words ‘baptized’, or ‘dead’ to either erroneous or evil practices, which men might have employed to express their belief in the doctrine of the resurrection, should be rejected; as it appears by no means likely that the Apostle would ground an argument, even though it were what the logicians call an argumentum ad hominem, on either a vicious or erroneous practice. Besides, such a system of reasoning would be quite inconclusive. Hence, the words should not be referred to either the Clinics, baptized at the hour of death, or to the vicarious baptisms in use among the Jews, for their departed friends who departed without baptism. The interpretation adopted in the paraphrase makes the words refer to the Sacrament of Baptism, which all were obliged to approach with faith in the resurrection of the dead as a necessary condition. ‘Credo in resurrectionem mortuorum’. This interpretation – the one adopted by St. Chrysostom–has the advantage of giving the words ‘baptized’ and ‘dead’ their literal signification. The only inconvenience in it is that the word resurrection is introduced. But, it is understood from the entire context, and is warranted by a reference to other passages of Scripture. For, from the Epistle of the Hebrews (vi, 2) it appears that a knowledge of the faith of the resurrection was one of the elementary points of instruction required for adult baptism; and hence the Scriptures themselves furnish the ground for the introduction of the word. There is another probable interpretation, which understands the words ‘baptism’ and ‘dead’ in a metaphorical sense, and refers them to the sufferings which the Apostles and heralds of salvation underwent to preach the Gospel to the infidels, dead to grace and spiritual life, with the hope of making them sharers in the glory of a happy resurrection. The word ‘baptism’ is employed in this sense in Scripture, even by our divine Redeemer Himself – ‘I have a baptism wherewith to be baptized’, etc. And the word ‘dead’ is employed in several parts of the New Testament to designate those spiritually dead to grace and justice. In the Greek, the words ‘for the dead’, uper ton nekron that is, on account of or, in behalf of the dead, would serve to confirm, in some degree, this latter interpretation. These appear to be the most probable of the interpretations of this passage; each, no doubt, has its difficulties. The meaning of the words was known to the Corinthians at the time of the Apostle. All that can be known of their meaning at this remote period, can not exceed the bounds of probable conjecture” (loc. cit., chap. xv; cf. also Cornely in Ep. I Cor.).
newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Paul a Jew and the Jews practicing proxy Baptism for their kindred dead!

1 Cor 15
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Adds quite a bit of context to what Paul was saying don’t you think? Pauls grounding of argument in the practice is an admition of validity!
 
I thought we already addressed this source. I don’t find FAIR very good because of what I perceive as academic sloppiness and a lot of spindoctoring.

We still are left with no example in the Bible of Jesus teaching this. We don’t have any verified sources that provide the context that you claim for Pauls ONE comment on baptism for the dead and, oddly enough, we find NOTHING on this in the book of Mormon.

I’d like to see the actual Christian writings you think apply to this so that l can view them in full. If you post links the mod will be fine with it.

I don’t disagree with Paul, I disagree with your interpretation of Paul.

I am Catholic.

I don’t see any of you sources as showing that Paul or any other Christian Authority figure practiced vicarious baptism for the dead. you have shown some indication of heretics baptizing corpses and a number of “possible” theories about what Paul was referring to in 1 Cor 15:29 with no sure evidence for any of them.

If this was true Christian Doctrine that was essential to exaltation as the LDS church claims then why do we not see it anywhere in the Book of Mormon?

I think it’s obviously “another Gospel” and NOT what Jesus taught.
 
Shepard of Hermas referese to the Aposltes themselves doing Baptisms for the dead.

This is 1st Century Christian 😉

CHAPTER XVI

“Explain to me a little further, sir,” I said. “What is it that you desire?” he asked. “Why, sir,” I said, "did these stones ascend out of the pit, and be applied to the building of the tower, after having borne these spirits? “They were obliged,” he answered, **“to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. **Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God s he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive. And to them, accordingly, was this seal preached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.” “Why, sir,” I asked, “did the forty stones also ascend with them out of the pit, having already received the seal?” “Because,” he said, “these apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after falling asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached it not only to those who were asleep, but themselves also gave them the seal of the preaching. Accordingly they descended with them into the water, and again ascended. [But these descended alive and rose up again alive; whereas they who had previously fallen asleep descended dead, but rose up again alive. ] By these, then, were they quickened and made to know the name of the Son of God. For this reason also did they ascend with them, and were fitted along with them into the building of the tower, and, untouched by the chisel, were built in along with them. For they slept in righteousness and in great purity, but only they had not this seal. You have accordingly the explanation of these also.”
newadvent.org/fathers/0201309.htm

Those before the flood had not the seal of baptism. He is teaching specifically that the Apostles themselves preached the Gospel to them in hades and performed baptisms for the dead, the seal was water. They preached and sealed those who beleived with water by proxy.
 
The Shepherd of Hermas is pretty weak evidence since it is an anonimous work written at an unknown date. Although the Shepherd may have been in vogue it was controversial from the beginning and was quickly labeled non-inspired.

There are serious problems all over the Shepherd of Hermas. The Holy Spirit is called the Son of God and the Holy Spirit became Jesus at the Incarnation. The Shepherd also warns that anger comes from evil spirits yet when Hermas expresses some doubt as to his ability to keep the commandments that have been revealed to him the Shepherd himself rebukes Hermas in what clearly appears to be an outburst of extreme anger. Hermas gives his own account of this: “He [the Shepherd] said these things to me very angrily, which confused me and I feared him greatly, for his appearance was changed so that a man could not endure his anger.” It is only after the Shepherd sees how distressed Hermas is by his anger that he becomes more composed and his anger subsides. In Hermas’ dialogue with the Shepherd, among the many instructions that are given to him, the issue of post-baptismal sin is discussed. It is revealed to Hermas that anyone who sins after baptism is given the opportunity to repent only once. Any sin that is committed afterwards is viewed extremely dismally and the implication is given that such an individual will no longer be able to obtain forgiveness.

You might as well quote from gnostic gospels to prove your points, they were popular too.
 
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