Another homosexuality thread

[davidv]

Their story is one shared by many men and women who when faced with the death of their partner find themselves alone and no recourse to deal with their partner’s family.

I was very good friends with a gay couple…they were older…I was in my 40"s then…they were in their 50’s…one of them died…and when the family of the dead partner showed up at their home to take his belongings…a home the family had never visited before in the 25 years they had been together…they sought to force the surviving partner to sell the house as they wanted “their share”…luckily they had wills and had a “right of survivorship” as part of the mortgage…the surviving partner still had to hire an attorney to fight the deceased partner’s family to preserve the home they had shared…

This was a moving story…and I’m sure one dismissed by many as being “just about sex”…obviously it wasn’t …but for many it is much easier to dismiss the love two people of the same sex have for one another as just “sex”…as if their own relationships with their spouses is no more than “sex”…

At least hearts are changing…slowly our nation will recongnize same sex marriages…it will take time…but eventually it will become a reality as it has in other countries and in states of our Union.

More of these stories need to be told…to put a face on real people instead of hateful caricatures some “religious” people paint of same sex couples…amazing story.

A very fine appeal to emotion. What is the truth?

Would you also agree not to put on a caricature of “religious” who are attempting stand up for the truth as you just did here? There is nothing hateful about telling the truth at the appropriate time.

 

[Rainaldo]

The definition of “marriage” is not the sole responsibility of the Catholic church–indeed, it wasn’t until the Council of Trent in 1563, I believe, that marriage was even an official sacrament.

Oops, you gave yourself away right there. Trent defined marriage to be a sacrament because … the Protestants were denying that it was. Use a little logic and common sense: why would the Protestants deny that marriage is a sacrament unless … the Catholic Church had affirmed it before then? At any rate, I’ll let someone else truck in the pre-Trent citations.

 

[JNdoum]

Society isn’t “avidly anti-Catholic”.
Society tries to be fair and open to all religions and beliefs, as per our constitution. If many people–this “society” you speak of–don’t agree with a point the Catholic church teaches to its followers, it’s not because they are “anti-Catholic”…it means that many people see an error in the teaching and see that it is hurting others, as per what the OP is seeing and questioning.
That’s not being anti-Catholic–out to get or persecute an entire religion.
That is sticking up for something they believe in and sticking up for those who are vulnerable and are being hurt and treated unfairly, like the young men in the video.

To say that society is not anti-Catholic, as a non-Catholic, is like saying segregation isn’t racist, as a rich white in the 1950s. How could you possibly know? Do you have any idea how many times I, as a Catholic high schooler, am mocked for my beliefs? How often I have to hear people insult the pope and my faith? How many crude and disgusting jokes I have to hear about priests? And then, when the Church comes up legitimately in conversation, careless comments such as “The Catholic Church is crazy” and “If you don’t like that, you know you’re a Catholic” (both actual quotes) then you know for a fact that saying society is not anti-Catholic is false.

I will not get into the various amount of anti-Catholicism present into today’s society, but the point is, it’s there. The very fact that you came onto a Catholic website with a prejudice that what we believe “hurts people” and then proceed to attack Catholic beliefs shows a bit about what society at large thinks of us. Must I go on? This country is one obsessed with discrimination, to the point where it will never go away. It classifies everyone based on their race and social status, and then expects such discriminations to go away.

I am an African-American (in the literal sense of the word, my parents are African), Catholic child of immigrants, and if I have to hear “go back to Africa” and the n-word from the same person who avidly activates gay rights and American freedoms, I may just die of hypocrisy. This from the same country that falls apart if someone dares to publicly make some rude comment about a minority. If a group is being hated, and speaks out about it, at least admit that they are being discriminated against, even if you plan on doing nothing about it.

 

[Mumbles140]

They are “making it”, but in a different way. If you adopt children, you are having a baby–just not from your own body.
The procreation factor is “absent” only technically…but if you look at the grand picture, these people can still be parents to many children. So in a bigger sense, they are making families.

So if a couple definitely cannot get pregnant–either because of a physical problem or maybe the woman is in her sixties–they should stop having sex because it would only be for pleasure?

Homosexuality is “natural” because people are born gay, God made them this way. Just as God made you heterosexual (I assume). Why would you call something God created unnatural?

Marriage isn’t only a religious institution. It is for those who are religious and get married in churches, perhaps…but not for others who are not and do not.
If it was only religion-related, one wouldn’t be able to get married outside of a church!

Are you saying that religions “own” the word “marriage”?

Two fleshes did not become one to create a child when it is a homosexual couple - therefore, they did not make life occur. Someone else did, and they opened their hearts and their homes to take on that child as their own. Still a loving act of parenting, from very different from procreation. Also, ‘technically’ is precisely what we are talking about. Scientifically and naturally, two men alone cannot produce a child. Only a man and woman have that capacity using the sexual act.

You use the example of a menopausal woman, but God has blessed women who have been called barren with child? Nothing is prohibiting the man and woman’s sexual cells from joining. However, when no women’s cells are present, there can never be fertility because science doesn’t work that way. It would be unnatural for science to work that way.

The fact that you believe people are born gay is a serious issue. This does not mean people choose to be gay, but there are many factors that can affect a toddler’s sexual development. Not to mention the huge increase of homosexual behavior in people who have been sexually abused.

Marriage was created by religions, and has been defined by religions. The government regulated marriage for taxes, records, wills, etc. In doing this, it allowed for people to be married legally who did not want to go through religious means. But the government didn’t redefine marriage then. It provided a secular recognition of it, but it still held marriage to what the Church had taught marriage to be as handed down from God. This is seen in bans on polygamy, homosexual marriage, and bestiality. Religions don’t ‘own’ the word, but they are the ones who first instituted it as a gift from God and have passed down the traditions and teachings on marriage from God.

 

[ebonykawai]

To say that society is not anti-Catholic, as a non-Catholic, is like saying segregation isn’t racist, as a rich white in the 1950s. How could you possibly know? Do you have any idea how many times I, as a Catholic high schooler, am mocked for my beliefs? How often I have to hear people insult the pope and my faith? How many crude and disgusting jokes I have to hear about priests? And then, when the Church comes up legitimately in conversation, careless comments such as “The Catholic Church is crazy” and “If you don’t like that, you know you’re a Catholic” (both actual quotes) then you know for a fact that saying society is not anti-Catholic is false.

I will not get into the various amount of anti-Catholicism present into today’s society, but the point is, it’s there. The very fact that you came onto a Catholic website with a prejudice that what we believe “hurts people” and then proceed to attack Catholic beliefs shows a bit about what society at large thinks of us. Must I go on? This country is one obsessed with discrimination, to the point where it will never go away. It classifies everyone based on their race and social status, and then expects such discriminations to go away.

I am an African-American (in the literal sense of the word, my parents are African), Catholic child of immigrants, and if I have to hear “go back to Africa” and the n-word from the same person who avidly activates gay rights and American freedoms, I may just die of hypocrisy. This from the same country that falls apart if someone dares to publicly make some rude comment about a minority. If a group is being hated, and speaks out about it, at least admit that they are being discriminated against, even if you plan on doing nothing about it.

There’s anti-something sentiments about practically EVERYONE in society. Anti-Christian, anti-pagan, anti-fat, anti-smoker, anti-any human other than white-skinned, anti-cat lovers, anti-elderly people, anti-welfare recipeints, etc. etc. etc…the list goes on and on.

Catholics aren’t any worse off that any other group who is hated by intolerant people. But wait…I’ve often read on these forums that Catholics SHOULDN’T be tolerant!! You have to stand up for what you believe in, right?

Why do Catholics always want their cake and eat it too?

 

[Rainaldo]

What I am saying is…if you have two people who love each other and want to get married and bring up children in a happy home, it sounds in a broader sense very “open to life” (ie. open to having children in however they arrive) and also, helpful to the human race to thrive and populate.

Love justifies anything for you, doesn’t it?

 

[ebonykawai]

When I see a video like this, it’s just hard for me to respond with the Catholic line about homosexuality being evil.

Just bear with me before reacting. I think that I understand what the problem is… I mean, I’m looking at this video and seeing love, straight up… love…genuine love… there’s no better way to describe what this man has for the man that he lost.

By contrast, why am I telling him that all of that was wrong or evil? Because in the opinion of the Church, God did not “design” it that way? Because it’s “unnatural”?

Even after reading all of the literature, I still can’t wrap my head around what “designed” or “unnatural” mean in this context.

Instead, I find myself being nothing less than INFURIATED with not the homosexual but the family of the deceased. I find their actions so cruel and uncaring, I can’t ever imagine acting like that if my son were in the same situation.

So some questions:

---

What I understand is that in such a situation, I’m to have these goals:

1. Articulate the reasons why this is wrong.
2. Deny the love that existed between these men.
3. Explain why the Catholic position is the position of “true love.”

Right now, I can’t accomplish any of these three goals. None of my Catholic education in middle school, high school, university, or in working for the Church for years has prepared me to accomplish any of these three goals. So please tell me, in such a situation, how would I go about accomplishing these three goals?

Why on earth would you want to?

 

[ebonykawai]

Love justifies anything for you, doesn’t it?

Oh yeah, that whole “Love one another” thing was total BS.

 

[Rainaldo]

The fact that you believe people are born gay is a serious issue.

Some people need it to be true so that being gay can be declared a right. Remember, the gay lifestyle used to be called a lifestyle choice, just like abortion used to be called a *choice, *and the secular dogma is that you’re not supposed to interfere with the freedom of someone else’s choice. But when they realized that some choices are bad, they decided being gay had to be inborn so that being against the gay lifestyle meant being against the gay person, since gay is now an “identity”, and being against a person is racism/homophobia/whatever secular sin-du-jour is trending now.

 

[Rainaldo]

“go back to Africa”

I’ve been told to my face, “Go back to Europe”.

 

[livingwordunity]

When I see a video like this, it’s just hard for me to respond with the Catholic line about homosexuality being evil.

Just bear with me before reacting. I think that I understand what the problem is… I mean, I’m looking at this video and seeing love, straight up… love…genuine love… there’s no better way to describe what this man has for the man that he lost.

By contrast, why am I telling him that all of that was wrong or evil? Because in the opinion of the Church, God did not “design” it that way? Because it’s “unnatural”?

Even after reading all of the literature, I still can’t wrap my head around what “designed” or “unnatural” mean in this context.

Instead, I find myself being nothing less than INFURIATED with not the homosexual but the family of the deceased. I find their actions so cruel and uncaring, I can’t ever imagine acting like that if my son were in the same situation.

So some questions:

---

What I understand is that in such a situation, I’m to have these goals:

1. Articulate the reasons why this is wrong.
2. Deny the love that existed between these men.
3. Explain why the Catholic position is the position of “true love.”

Right now, I can’t accomplish any of these three goals. None of my Catholic education in middle school, high school, university, or in working for the Church for years has prepared me to accomplish any of these three goals. So please tell me, in such a situation, how would I go about accomplishing these three goals?

Gays aren’t the only ones who can become a victim of violence and hate. I’m tired of them acting like they are the only ones. The number of gays who have died for being gay VS the number of people who have died for being Christian is like the difference between a drop of water and an ocean.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…
Did you watch the video?
These two men are “hurting”, to use your words, and to say the very least-- to the point where one killed himself (I think? The video says he “fell” but I assume he jumped?) because his family would not accept him being gay.

And as a journalist …

Journalists have a critical approach to news and topics of interest, but your post above does not reflect that.

It does not take long for any viewer of the video to get to the part below the link and read that

“Tom fell accidently from the rooftop when he was photographing a friend. He stepped back to focus the camera and simply tripped.”

This was posted by one of his best friends in the know what exactly happened and which his partner Shane (the narrator in the video) also related in a site elsewhere.

Do you see how the the youtube production itself and incident are manipulated for untruth and agenda driven sensationalism?

The death has nothing to do with intolerance or rejection of homosexuals by the family or society.

 

[Rainaldo]

I am trying to … rationally discuss.

I feel discriminated against

I’m with you on the “rationally discuss” part, but the “feel” part you’re on your own. I don’t believe in kowtowing to people’s feelings, especially when it comes to objective disorders.

 

[Rainaldo]

The death has nothing to do with intolerance or rejection of homosexuals by the family or society.

Yes but many people’s first reactions are that he did commit suicide. You know why? Because the mainstream media and the gay lobby have trained the general public to assume the death of a good-looking young gay man is automatically a homophobia-related suicide.

They are winning.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Yes but many people’s first reactions are that he did commit suicide. You know why? Because the mainstream media and the gay lobby have trained the general public to assume the death of a good-looking young gay man is automatically a homophobia-related suicide.

They are winning.

In the minds of the lazy or undiscerning.
,

 

[Non_sum_dignus]

Are you saying that religions “own” the word “marriage”?

People own the word. God owns the concept.

 

[white_sheep]

When I see a video like this, it’s just hard for me to respond with the Catholic line about homosexuality being evil.

Just bear with me before reacting. I think that I understand what the problem is… I mean, I’m looking at this video and seeing love, straight up… love…genuine love… there’s no better way to describe what this man has for the man that he lost.

So what? I loved my dog, straight up, was sad after he died for quite a while, in fact I still miss him, but that doesn’t make it ok for me to have sex with dogs. I could love my secretary, but unless she’s my wife, it isn’t ok for me to have sex with her either.

By contrast, why am I telling him that all of that was wrong or evil? Because in the opinion of the Church, God did not “design” it that way? Because it’s “unnatural”?

Why would you be telling him any of these things?

Even after reading all of the literature, I still can’t wrap my head around what “designed” or “unnatural” mean in this context.

More reading to do, you have.

Instead, I find myself being nothing less than INFURIATED with not the homosexual but the family of the deceased. I find their actions so cruel and uncaring, I can’t ever imagine acting like that if my son were in the same situation.

Definitely can’t argue with that. They weren’t very nice.

So some questions:

---

What I understand is that in such a situation, I’m to have these goals:

1. Articulate the reasons why this is wrong.
2. Deny the love that existed between these men.
3. Explain why the Catholic position is the position of “true love.”

Right now, I can’t accomplish any of these three goals. None of my Catholic education in middle school, high school, university, or in working for the Church for years has prepared me to accomplish any of these three goals. So please tell me, in such a situation, how would I go about accomplishing these three goals?

Why would you have those goals? Really. There are times when things are just inappropriate to discuss, funerals are generally that time. I don’t think anyone would agree that #2 should be on your list at all. No one is going to claim that two men can’t love one another. I love my dad, and my brothers.

 

[JNdoum]

There’s anti-something sentiments about practically EVERYONE in society. Anti-Christian, anti-pagan, anti-fat, anti-smoker, anti-any human other than white-skinned, anti-cat lovers, anti-elderly people, anti-welfare recipeints, etc. etc. etc…the list goes on and on.

Catholics aren’t any worse off that any other group who is hated by intolerant people. But wait…I’ve often read on these forums that Catholics SHOULDN’T be tolerant!! You have to stand up for what you believe in, right?

Why do Catholics always want their cake and eat it too?

Of course we are worse off than some groups, but you are right in saying we aren’t worse off than most. If I implied this, I shouldn’t have, and I apologize. As for hearing that Catholics shouldn’t be tolerant, where did you hear this? I have never heard this before in my life.

 

[JNdoum]

I’ve been told to my face, “Go back to Europe”.

I am sorry you had to go through that. Who told you this? What did you do?

 

[JNdoum]

Attack Catholic beliefs?
I don’t agree with some of them but I am not attacking, I am trying to calmly work out the psychology of why our beliefs and feelings differ, as per my posts, and rationally discuss.

It’s true, I don’t understand why you call the society “anti-Catholic”, why you use that specific term–it seems extreme or incorrect to me.
Dozens of Catholics here are speaking negatively about homosexuality–but I am not labeling them as homophobic or attacking gays or anti-SSA.
I’d say they disagree on a belief. No need to glom everyone together and say they are anti-anything or attacking everything as one, big, angry mass.

Many people disagree on Catholic teachings–as you have discovered in your travels.
The world has changed a lot in the last few decades, so maybe you are hearing more negative because more and more people are not agreeing with your beliefs. You are probably extra sensitive to it because you are young (in high school?) and have not been around. All religions get bashed.
You haven’t seen that happen here on CAF?

On Ash Wednesday, I walk around the streets of New York City and see thousands of people happily walking up 5th Avenue with a black smudge of ash on their forehead and I see thousands of tourists every month file into St Pat’s Cathedral. I see a lot of embracing of Catholics here, but perhaps my experience is much different than yours.

Case in point: I’d say to you that as a woman, I feel discriminated against within the Catholic religion. But you yourself may not see it or agree with my feelings because you are male and don’t have the same experience. So, yes, I wouldn’t see it as much as you do, that is true.

And as a journalist, I often must explain to many people on this site who think the media is “attacking” Catholics that it is not so, and I explain why–I go through a lot of trouble explaining why some stories get picked up by a newspaper and others don’t and why, and it’s got nothing to do with being anti-Catholic.

But I didn’t come on here with a prejudice.
I am responding to the OP’s question and video he posted–he’s Catholic, by the way, and he is questioning Catholic beliefs on this.
Did you watch the video?
These two men are “hurting”, to use your words, and to say the very least-- to the point where one killed himself (I think? The video says he “fell” but I assume he jumped?) because his family would not accept him being gay.

There’s the example right there of a religious belief that has “hurt” two people who care for each other, right there on the video, as per your post.

I’m curious to know…do you think the OP is anti-Catholic for posting that video and questioning as he is? Do you feel he is “attacking”, too?

I am amazed that you hear “go back to Africa” and the “n-word”! I didn’t take note of where you live but…wow, that is something I never here in this city. I have a lot of African-American friends (some who were born in Africa, and then came here as kids or as adults) who never,* ever* experience that. That’s awful.
I totally share your pain and outrage on that.

Religion is a choice and is personal and is something people have always debated and fought about, so it’s to be expected to find others who will either argue your beliefs (if they are rational) or mock them insensitively (as per your immature high school friends).

But we don’t choose the color of our skin, and racism like that…

If I wasn’t a pacifist, I’d tell you to sock the next jerk who says that!!!

I do not actually think the OP was anti-Catholic, and I did see the video. I got the impression that he fell, so I’m not sure about that. I am sorry if I blew up at you, I was having a rather off day, and took it out in a negative way. I shouldn’t have. I suppose it’s different for me because I live in the South, where while it isn’t so much an issue, it isn’t so touchy a subject as it is up North.

I do realize I gave off the impression that I somehow thought I was the only group who ever got discriminated against, and I didn’t mean this. I simply only know about my experience, so I couldn’t begin talking about discrimination against Muslims (which I simply cannot stand) or things like that. I do agree that differing opinions is not anti-Catholicism, my issue is not with that. I just feel that when someone says they’re being discriminated against, the feeling should be respected, and not dismissed. I didn’t mean to say anything else I may have implied. I’m sorry.