Another homosexuality thread

[Midwest88]

In the minds of the lazy or undiscerning.
,

Oddly enough, those that do think of themselves as intelligent and informed people.

 

[presidentjlh]

I just hate this whole issue, especially since I’m interested in being a politician, and, oh lucky me, the Church says I have to have an opinion and vote on this pointless issue that just divides people and honestly I just could not care less about.

I want so badly to obey the Church, but why must they tell me what I must believe on every single thing?! It frustrates me to no end. I’m not for gay marriage, and I’m not against gay marriage, because I know the Church never would recognize any such “marriage” so it’s not really a marriage. I just want to, for one moment, have a controversial issue come up that I don’t want to care about that I can actually just not care about.

I love the Catholic Church, I acquiesce to her teachings, but why? Why everything? We can’t govern solely based on Catholic teaching, because as good as the Church is when it comes to matters of faith and morals, she was a terrible form of government.

 

[presidentjlh]

I just hate this whole issue, especially since I’m interested in being a politician, and, oh lucky me, the Church says I have to have an opinion and vote on this pointless issue that just divides people and honestly I just could not care less about.

I want so badly to obey the Church, but why must they tell me what I must believe on every single thing?! It frustrates me to no end. I’m not for gay marriage, and I’m not against gay marriage, because I know the Church never would recognize any such “marriage” so it’s not really a marriage. I just want to, for one moment, have a controversial issue come up that I don’t want to care about that I can actually just not care about.

I love the Catholic Church, I acquiesce to her teachings, but why? Why everything? We can’t govern solely based on Catholic teaching, because as good as the Church is when it comes to matters of faith and morals, she was a terrible form of government.

And yes, I know the path is narrow and such…yes. But everything, it seems…everything is so difficult. Why can’t one thing in life, just one be easy?!

 

[presidentjlh]

But then I guess I’m just a bad Catholic. I just sometimes want to not think about these things, I just want to not care, for just a moment, instead of have life be some constant correcting of individuals and worrying if I’m sinning or not.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Attack Catholic beliefs?

And as a journalist, I often must explain to many people on this site who think the media is “attacking” Catholics that it is not so, and I explain why–I go through a lot of trouble explaining why some stories get picked up by a newspaper and others don’t and why, and it’s got nothing to do with being anti-Catholic.

I am interested in this and would like to hear your explanation. In Oregon the public broadcasting station/channel as well as most local news stations–seem to never let a story regarding the Catholic priest sex abuse scandal go buy without comment–and the tone of their stories show a bias against the Church. Yet I have yet to hear one story regarding the teacher sex abuse scandal. The Oregonian to their credit ran a three day story on the issue here. This is a nation wide problem that has received scant attention (and that may be a generous characterization) from the mainstream media. Did you know they have a name shuffling these teachers to other schools? It is called passing the trash. If you could explain to me why the Catholic priest abuse story is continually picked up and the teacher one is skipped – I would be grateful as I find it puzzling and irritating–and I think indicitive of bias and prejudice. Further we recently had a small peice on the abuse of women in prison by their guards–tone of story totally different–almost apologetic–I am baffled by this–by any attempt to explain away the abuse by caretakers of those entrusted to their care–I don’t care if they if have been convicted of a crime.

If you could in one post (as this is off topic) explain the lack of reporting regarding the abuse by other organizations, the difference in tone when it is reported vs the volume and tone of the reporting of the Catholic priest sex abuse scandal I would be appreciative–I’d love to hear the reasoning.

Thank you,
Mark

 

[ricofall]

I just hate this whole issue, especially since I’m interested in being a politician, and, oh lucky me, the Church says I have to have an opinion and vote on this pointless issue that just divides people and honestly I just could not care less about.

I want so badly to obey the Church, but why must they tell me what I must believe on every single thing?! It frustrates me to no end. I’m not for gay marriage, and I’m not against gay marriage, because I know the Church never would recognize any such “marriage” so it’s not really a marriage. I just want to, for one moment, have a controversial issue come up that I don’t want to care about that I can actually just not care about.

I love the Catholic Church, I acquiesce to her teachings, but why? Why everything? We can’tGood govern solely based on Catholic teaching, because as good as the Church is when it comes to matters of faith and morals, she was a terrible form of government.

Good luck on running. I think you know why policitians seem to never stay within their religious convections anymore. The seduction of power can override ones sense of morality. Just wondering, What part in history are you refering to?

 

[presidentjlh]

As to your second point, I refer to the Crusades, and the corrupt popes of medieval times, when the Chair of Peter was often sold or given as a favor. The Church cannot lead an actual army to fight others in physical combat, such is contrary to Her purpose. At the same time, it is necessary that a government control an army to protect the nation. Politics can be corrupting, as does power, and so I fear the Church getting lost in political crookedness. Certainly She cannot fail when it comes to doctrine on faith and morals, but at the same time, She is so tragically susceptible to human error on other matters.

As to your first point, most certainly that is true, and that’s what I fear. I do not want to lose my principle, lose my morality so as to gain political power, and I fear becoming that type of person. And yet at the same time, I have a great desire to make a difference. I feel that God calls me to be a leader, to change the world for the better. But then I am concerned about that feeling: Is that truly God calling me, or is that me just wanting to make a mark on history?

I never used to be this conflicted. I used to lack doubt, but my faith was still weak. I didn’t know much about Catholicism, I just believed it, yet I was less doubtful on issues such as gay marriage. But at the same time I really got into my faith (going to confession and Mass weekly, trying to learn the Church’s teachings on morality) I also started getting more involved in studying political thought and the current issues. I basically studied two often conflicting ideas at the same time. I saw both sides of the coin, and, as someone who generally believes people are good, I understood the reasoning for both sides. I side with my faith, of course, but I don’t believe those who disagree truly are as selfish or as disdainful of God as some here think. I think they truly believe they are doing good, and they have good hearts overall. They are certainly misguided, but misguided to me isn’t the same as actual evil.

Some issues I don’t have this much conflict over. I understand why people think abortion should be legal, but I have no qualms over my belief that it should not be legal, because it’s a matter of life and death quite literally. But often it seems there is conflict over other issues. I love the principles of political freedom and liberty, because they helped protect the Church in this country from groups like the Know-Nothings. Political liberty isn’t the enemy of religion, but rather, it protects it from governments and such. At the same time, I love my faith, I subscribe to the Church’s teachings. But at the present time, these two things tragically seem to conflict, but they shouldn’t. They should benefit each other I always thought. I truly feel that God planned this nation to be that “shining city upon a hill” with political liberty and the Church in mind. I search for ways to balance these two properly, but it is so difficult.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Gay men don’t care or need or want their marriages recognized by the church. They want it recognized by the law. I heard somebody else here what would be required for consummation. Well unless the law says sex consumes a marriage, it is a religious teaching in which, once again, it wouldn’t apply to the gays because they are marrying without the church. I’d also like to say that there is no such thing as consummation in a lesbian or gay marriage. There needs to be a male part entering the female part. Two women can’t do that. And while two men can do it, they are not actually having sex in its natural tendency. The lord told me that anal sex is a perversion. It is a an unnatural, unhealthy (physically and mentally) act of sex. Its damaging mentally because it is a lust, and giving into lust creates more lust, and its damaging physically in a number or ways. Its taking what God made good (vaginal sex made for love making and reproduction) and perverting it for their own pleasure. It is disgusting and unnatural in ANY relationship, including heterosexuals. Lesbians are also unable to naturally penetrate each other so that means no consummation for them either.

I’m saying that their marriage wouldn’t be a true marriage under God, just under the law which is perverted anyways.

 

[presidentjlh]

I suppose for now I must contemplate, but I know in my heart I must acquiesce to the teachings of the Church. I am still uncomfortable, but I have much time to prepare for future events, and “Thy will be done, not my own.”

 

[PumpkinSeed]

The video almost made me cry, not because hes gay, but because the gay man was so tormented by his family and in such guilt that he felt a need to kill himself when instead he should have cut contact with his family who threatened to kill him and attacked him, Then got counseling and now he would still be with his partner.

While this video was about equal rights, the saddest part is how the family reacted in a complete disgusting, threatening, unloving way. Totally opposed to Christ’s teachings. Shame on the family!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The video almost made me cry, not because hes gay, but because the gay man was so tormented by his family and in such guilt that he felt a need to kill himself when instead he should have cut contact with his family who threatened to kill him and attacked him, Then got counseling and now he would still be with his partner.

While this video was about equal rights, the saddest part is how the family reacted in a complete disgusting, threatening, unloving way. Totally opposed to Christ’s teachings. Shame on the family!

You may have missed a posting that says:

The video is a personalized romanticized youtube production of a love story between two young males, that does not lend itself to scrutiny as to veracity and / or completeness. As with 99% of youtube productions on the Internet. It’s tragic that a life ended, which the narrator said was an accident. However, the portrayal with a sad violin musical score in the background was played up as if the death resulted from the non-acceptance of his family of their gay relationship, with a claim of physical attack by the father and threat with use of a gun and the mother speaking of homosexuality as sin, etc. etc.

If the viewer were to look down and read the posts below the youtube link, one poster indicated: “Tom did NOT commit suicide. Get your facts straight before you talk please. He fell off a building taking pictures of a friend.”

There are other claims made by the narrator which will never be proven, all of which is one sided unless the parents of Tom go public.

If it was true that they were together for six years in a committed long term relationship, meaning Tom was 23 when they became a couple, they could have taken legal protections for shared assets and health / life related contingencies. It comes across from the video that they were a successful financially well off gay couple, with a business in L.A., and the ability to travel around the world. The charges of bullying and intolerance … and a pitch for marriage equality at the end sound gratuitous.

Plus this below

It does not take long for any viewer of the video to get to the part below the link and read that
“Tom fell accidently from the rooftop when he was photographing a friend. He stepped back to focus the camera and simply tripped.”

This was posted by one of his best friends in the know what exactly happened and which his partner Shane (the narrator in the video) also related in a site elsewhere.

Do you see how the the youtube production itself and incident are manipulated for untruth and agenda driven sensationalism?

The death has nothing to do with intolerance or rejection of homosexuals by the family or society.

 

[Scapegoat]

---

What I understand is that in such a situation, I’m to have these goals:

1. Articulate the reasons why this is wrong.
2. Deny the love that existed between these men.
3. Explain why the Catholic position is the position of “true love.”

Right now, I can’t accomplish any of these three goals. None of my Catholic education in middle school, high school, university, or in working for the Church for years has prepared me to accomplish any of these three goals. So please tell me, in such a situation, how would I go about accomplishing these three goals?

What is love?

[BIBLEDRB]1 corinthians 13:4-8[/BIBLEDRB]

How do we make love?

“It takes three to make love, not two: you, your spouse, and God. Without God people only succeed in bringing out the worst in one another. Lovers who have nothing else to do but love each other soon find there is nothing else. Without a central loyalty life is unfinished.”** --Fulton J Sheen**.

From what I’m aware of, in homosexual unions or any unions practicing sodomy/impure acts, the individuals themselves become the central focus and therefore an ends instead of a means to an end; God. For all humans our purpose, our end, is to be with God and our means of achieving this end is found in persons, places and things. However, when these things do not allow corporal or spiritual growth they cease to be means and therefore cease to have God as the central focus. Only heterosexual marriages that are not practicing impure acts and are not using artificial birth control allow for this type of growth -children- to happen. This growth points towards God since humans are created for the sole purpose of loving, honoring, and serving God and since the children will act as a means of bringing about the parents sanctification by them accomplishing all that their state of life demands of them.

 

[pnewton]

So what? I loved my dog, straight up, was sad after he died for quite a while, in fact I still miss him, but that doesn’t make it ok for me to have sex with dogs. I could love my secretary, but unless she’s my wife, it isn’t ok for me to have sex with her either.

I think there is even a closer analogy. If I fell madly in love with another woman, not my wife but the wife of another, and if then we had a very emotional affair over a period of years, I would be in the same situation at her passing. I would have terrible grief, yet I would be alone in my grief.

The choices we make in life can have very real consequences. I am do think we need to be as sympathetic with the grief of others, and we need to have compasion on people. However, the reality of the grief is not an indication that the homosexual relationship was okay, only that the ending of it hurt.

If we took the case of a man who was intimately involved with his daughter and loved her greatly, he too would be setting himself up for extreme grief for which he would find even less compassion than the homosexual person. I see people all the time that go through the loss of the loved one but have to experience in alone with little support because their choices have landed them in prison. They can not say good-bye or attend the funeral, but have to bear their grief alone, or at least without family.

It is not an approval of homosexuality to reach out to these people, even more than it is an approval of infidelity, pedophilia or criminal activity to show compassion to the people I mentioned above. In fact, it is our Christian duty. Promotion of homosexual lifestyle is seriously evil, but it is no more wrong than acting like homosexuality is in some special category of super sin, or it is any worse than the sins we commit.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

You may have missed a posting that says:

The video is a personalized romanticized youtube production of a love story between two young males, that does not lend itself to scrutiny as to veracity and / or completeness. As with 99% of youtube productions on the Internet. It’s tragic that a life ended, which the narrator said was an accident. However, the portrayal with a sad violin musical score in the background was played up as if the death resulted from the non-acceptance of his family of their gay relationship, with a claim of physical attack by the father and threat with use of a gun and the mother speaking of homosexuality as sin, etc. etc.

If the viewer were to look down and read the posts below the youtube link, one poster indicated: “Tom did NOT commit suicide. Get your facts straight before you talk please. He fell off a building taking pictures of a friend.”

There are other claims made by the narrator which will never be proven, all of which is one sided unless the parents of Tom go public.

If it was true that they were together for six years in a committed long term relationship, meaning Tom was 23 when they became a couple, they could have taken legal protections for shared assets and health / life related contingencies. It comes across from the video that they were a successful financially well off gay couple, with a business in L.A., and the ability to travel around the world. The charges of bullying and intolerance … and a pitch for marriage equality at the end sound gratuitous.

Plus this below

It does not take long for any viewer of the video to get to the part below the link and read that
“Tom fell accidently from the rooftop when he was photographing a friend. He stepped back to focus the camera and simply tripped.”

This was posted by one of his best friends in the know what exactly happened and which his partner Shane (the narrator in the video) also related in a site elsewhere.

Do you see how the the youtube production itself and incident are manipulated for untruth and agenda driven sensationalism?

The death has nothing to do with intolerance or rejection of homosexuals by the family or society.

Sorry I didn’t realize that. I was so caught up in the videos sadness.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

So what? I loved my dog, straight up, was sad after he died for quite a while, in fact I still miss him, but that doesn’t make it ok for me to have sex with dogs. I could love my secretary, but unless she’s my wife, it isn’t ok for me to have sex with her either.

That’s ridiculous. A dog can’t consent to have sex with a human being, for one thing. That would be like equating homosexual acts with rape. Come on.

Why would you be telling him any of these things?

Uh… to evangelize? To save souls? Isn’t that kind of, you know… important?

More reading to do, you have.

Clicks ‘ignore’ button

Why would you have those goals? Really. There are times when things are just inappropriate to discuss, funerals are generally that time

I didn’t say at the funeral.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Why on earth would you want to?

To evangelize?

I don’t get it, why are so many people asking me this question? Isn’t it well accepted that as Catholics, we are to evangelize?

 

[Catholicproud]

I struggle with the issue of Homosexuality, and gay marriage… big time!

 

[pnewton]

I struggle with the issue of Homosexuality, and gay marriage… big time!

Rest assured, we all struggle, just not with the same thing. Apart from the mercy of God, not one of us would ever be pleasing to God. Sometimes we all forget that we are all in the same boat of humanity when it comes to sin.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I struggle with the issue of Homosexuality, and gay marriage… big time!

You will find no help here, I’m afraid.

 

[sw85]

I’m simply going to quote/repost my earlier comment in this discussion, because (a) we are still for some reason talking about it as if the OP’s concerns were never addressed, and (b) my earlier comment appears to have been largely ignored save for a throwaway line seized on by a non-Catholic with an axe to grind.

So, here we go again, with the relevant parts bolded:

You don’t need to deny the love that existed between them. You need to understand that their love is a love of passion and sentiment.

Passion and sentiment is a good thing and a blessing when its ordered toward its proper object. But it’s completely irrelevant to Christ’s mission. Your heart can be exploding with positive sentiment and you can still go to Hell. And you can be emotionally dead inside and still be saved. It’s irrelevant. In fact I suspect passionate love damns more souls than it saves precisely because it is more often than not ordered toward the things of the world.

The love which we’re called to have, the love of which Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 13, the love we mean when we say “God is love” and “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, etc.” is emphatically not passion or emotion. It is caritas, agape: the love of the will, ordered toward the good of another, simply for that other’s sake.

Their love may be “love” in the loose, modern, sentimental sense. It is not love in the meaningful, salvific sense; i.e., it is not charity. It is the opposite of charity. It is scandal and sin. It murders charity and it murders souls.

What you need right now is faith. Faith, properly understood, is simply trust in the truth of what you know to be true. That faith is being challenged as a result of certain prejudices inculcated in you by an avidly anti-Catholic society. When I go bungy-jumping or skydiving, I know that the odds my parachute won’t deploy or that my cord will break are very, very low, but nevertheless I am afraid. I jump anyway – because I have faith in what I know to be true, even when my body screams out against it.

The Catholic position on normative sexuality is a rational one. It needs rational fortification. So fortify yourself intellectually: read. Why does the Catholic Church believe homosexuality is wrong? Where does this belief come from? (Hint: it isn’t just the Bible). A good place to start is Edward Feser’s Aquinas.