Another LDS Pre-Existence Question!

[RebeccaJ]

So Adam and Eve could:

• Remain childless in the garden and live forever in their current state - knowing neither misery nor joy.
  or
• Eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and bring children - along with the consequence of sin and death - into the world. In so doing they would initiate the great plan of salvation for all of Father’s sons and daughters. Additionally, a Savior would be provided to redeem mankind from the consequences of the fall.

[BIBLEDRB]Gen 1:28[/BIBLEDRB]

As you can see, having children is a blessing given by God before the fall. What you are saying is Adam and Eve had to disobey a commandment from God in order for this blessing to be realized.

 

[nevadaborn]

This difference in how Mormons and orthodox Christians view the Fall is also reflected in how they view Eve and Mary. To many Mormons Eve made a courageous choice in listening to the devil and eating the forbidden fruit. The LDS seem to be particularly proud of the pedestal that they often place Eve on, as if it somehow affirms the value and importance of women in the Mormon faith. In contrast, orthodox Christians see Mary as the great example of obedience and faith. Unlike Eve, Mary trusted in the promises of God and was obedient. By her complete giving of herself to God, Mary has become the most exalted of God’s creatures. To me its pretty clear which woman should be our role model in faith.

Some LDS quotes on Eve:

“We all owe a great debt of gratitude to Eve. In the Garden of Eden, she and Adam were instructed not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, they were also reminded, “Thou mayest choose for thyself.”

“Eve made an even greater statement of visionary wisdom after leaving the Garden of Eden: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.” If it hadn’t been for Eve, none of us would be here.”

“Indeed, Mother Eve left a lasting legacy that comes down through the ages to bless the lives of all men and women.”

Elder Faust General Conference 1999

“Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall”

Elder Oaks General Conference 1993

Some Catholic quotes on Eve:

Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons (2nd century):

“so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by
yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human
race”

“And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of
Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary
set free through faith.”

“in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness of the virgin Eve.
And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it
rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by
virginal obedience”

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation”. She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature” (St. Thomas Aquinas). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.”

 

[SteveVH]

Absolutely not! We believe, the patriarch of all humanity is not a sinner worthy of perdition. Instead he wisely chose to follow Eve and partake of the fruit. In so doing the rest of humanity entered mortality. As the Book of Mormon says, “Adam fell that man might be, and men are that they might have joy” (2 Ne 2:25) We honor Adam and Eve for the difficult, but correct choice they made.

Janderich, first of all I am pleased that you are on this forum. We have very few Mormon posters here these days.

As for the above post, this is a part of Mormon belief that has always really amazed me. Have you really thought out the logical conclusion of this belief? What you are saying is that disobeying a direct command of God was really a good thing, in fact, that it was God’s will that Adam and Eve disobey him.

Take a look at God’s reaction to their disobedience: (Genesis 3:14-19)

*"14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush** your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.” **

Does this sound like God was pleased with their choice; that they had done a good thing?
Just one more question, have you ever really wondered who would want you to believe that disobeying God is a good thing?*

 

[Miriam1947]

This difference in how Mormons and orthodox Christians view the Fall is also reflected in how they view Eve and Mary. To many Mormons Eve made a courageous choice in listening to the devil and eating the forbidden fruit. The LDS seem to be particularly proud of the pedestal that they often place Eve on, as if it somehow affirms the value and importance of women in the Mormon faith. In contrast, orthodox Christians see Mary as the great example of obedience and faith. Unlike Eve, Mary trusted in the promises of God and was obedient. By her complete giving of herself to God, Mary has become the most exalted of God’s creatures. To me its pretty clear which woman should be our role model in faith.

Some LDS quotes on Eve:

“We all owe a great debt of gratitude to Eve. In the Garden of Eden, she and Adam were instructed not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, they were also reminded, “Thou mayest choose for thyself.”

“Eve made an even greater statement of visionary wisdom after leaving the Garden of Eden: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.” If it hadn’t been for Eve, none of us would be here.”

“Indeed, Mother Eve left a lasting legacy that comes down through the ages to bless the lives of all men and women.”

Elder Faust General Conference 1999

“Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall”

Elder Oaks General Conference 1993

Some Catholic quotes on Eve:

Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons (2nd century):

“so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by
yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human
race”

“And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of
Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary
set free through faith.”

“in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness of the virgin Eve.
And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it
rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by
virginal obedience”

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation”. She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature” (St. Thomas Aquinas). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.”

If you haven’t seen this yet:

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

The truth about Mary and Scripture.

I hope you enjoy it.

Welcome home!

 

[campeador]

God never said “Do not eat of the fruit unless Eve does first and then make a judgment call”

 

[Janderich]

Hi Telstar,
Let me see if I can answer a few of your questions. My point here is not to convince, simply explain.

If Adam (or Eve) didn’t sin, then why did God punish them by banishing them from Paradise? Do LDS really believe that God is that unjust, to punish them for doing something “good”?

We believe Adam and Eve transgressed but they did not sin. Now, because of their choice they did suffer and I admit it has been termed punish. But the word does not convey the depth or meaning of what happened. Adam and Eve had a choice. Yes they suffered consequences because of that choice but they were willing to accept them. Furthermore after the fall they gained further knowledge of the Savior and his atonement. we read in Moses 5:10-11 of how they felt. Adam begins saying:

Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Along that same line, how did sin then enter the perfect world that God had created, from that point on, if Adam never sinned?

Here is what Brigham Young has said on the matter.

“Some may regret that our first parents sinned. This is nonsense. If we had been there, and they had not sinned, we would have sinned. I will not blame Adam or Eve. Why? Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. How did Adam and Eve sin? Did they come out in direct opposition to God and to his government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1941], p. 103).

Why did God even need to send a Savior if all mankind wasn’t being punished for Adam’s sin, by having to live in the world that was corrupted as a direct result of Adam’s choice? What did Jesus have to save us from, if not from Adam’s sin?

Mankind must live in this world for a very short time. However, I do not term this time of testing as punishment. The only true and lasting sorrow comes from our own sins. Adam is punished for his sins we are punished for ours. “We believe that man will be punished for his own sins and not for Adam’s transgression” Article of Faith #2.Thus Christ came to save us from our own sins.

 

[RebeccaJ]

A sin is not made good by a good outcome. Sin is sin. That is one problem with the Mormon view of the fall. God is not immoral. God gave Adam an Eve a commandment, to not eat the fruit of a tree. They disobeyed God, which is the very definition of sin. God does not desire that we sin, for any reason, let alone an idea that sin is required by God…that is just plain evil.

Second, God doesn’t set up a double bind in order to coerce us. That is a false view of God, therefore, a false god.

And third, no one here accepts JS writings as scripture, or even truth or related to truth.

 

[truthsave]

We believe Adam and Eve transgressed but they did not sin.

This is really but really one of the most incredible thing I have ever heard. It is like pushing a triangle shape into a circle shape. And believing we had matched the two shape correctly.

Sin is just trasgression. Trasgression on God’s commandements.

I don’t know if the totality of mormons thinks this, but if they do they don’t have a serious attitude since I would like to see if a mormon transgress one of the different law that we as christians don’t share with them, they would call the trasgression just a trasgression and not a sin.
I would reccomend, if for a mormon is difficult to understand, and I don’t believe it is difficult to understand, to consider trasgressing his laws of wisdoms (not drinking alcohol and so on…) just like a trasgression and not a sin.

Justifying his own view should have a limit of decency and respect for himself and the others.

You can transgress without committing a sin then you should be able to commit a sin without trasgressing.
Mormons should be able to do this last thing to.

This attitude is not an explaining attitude, it is an attitude of trying to put the seeds of confusion in already confused minds ready to be misleaded.

 

[twopekinguys]

In LDS theology, Adam’s choice was not between good and evil but rather between a good choice and a better choice. Thus in eating the fruit Adam did not sin. However, Judas clearly knew what was right and wilfully rebelled, and so committed a grievous sin.

Genesis 2, (bolding mine)

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, **“You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” **

OK, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the apple of the tree of knowledge, but he did. How is disobeying a direct command from God not a sin?

Never mind the whole be fruitful and multiply part, how do you get past directly violating a command by God himself?

 

[mitex]

I’d love to know why everyone here is obsessed with Mormons.

 

[twopekinguys]

I’d love to know why everyone here is obsessed with Mormons.

I wouldn’t call it “obsessed”.

I would call it evangelizing, and pointing out doctrinal, and theological error.

Unfortunately, from a Christian perspective, there is alot to point out.

 

[Jerusha]

I’d love to know why everyone here is obsessed with Mormons.

Probably because some Mormons are obsessed with converting Catholics.

 

[Janderich]

Genesis 2, (bolding mine)

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, **“You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” **

OK, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the apple of the tree of knowledge, but he did. How is disobeying a direct command from God not a sin?

Never mind the whole be fruitful and multiply part, how do you get past directly violating a command by God himself?

There are some slight differences on how some members and authorities view this topic. But for me Joseph Fielding Smith the tenth president of the church represents my take on the subject. He said:

Mortality was created through the eating of forbidden fruit, if you want to call it forbidden, but I think the Lord has made it clear that it was not forbidden. He merely said to Adam, if you want to stay here [in the garden] this is the situation. If so, don’t eat it. (“The Sacrament and the Atonement,” address given at the LDS institute of religion, Salt Lake City, 14 Jan. 1961, 5)

Thus each choice had consequences. And yes choosing to eat the fruit came with spiritual separation from God and with mortality and death. Call it sin if you wish, but I for one, am thankful that Adam and Eve made the choice they did so that I could gain a body and further progress.

Just by way of note: when he says the Lord has made it clear this is likely in reference to modern revelation on the topic.

 

[Hello_All]

YES,they are ,especially that romney is likely to be the rep candidate.never in my life,ive seen a deluge of mormon missionaries in our town lately.they were very persistent in entering our house,even if i told to leave us alone.One gal even asked us,if we have clothes to be laundered and they will do it.how low can they go,just to convert people or see to it that romney will win the election.btw,i am boycotting the pres election,will not vote for romney or obama!

 

[TexanKnight]

There are some slight differences on how some members and authorities view this topic. But for me Joseph Fielding Smith the tenth president of the church represents my take on the subject. He said: Thus each choice had consequences. And yes choosing to eat the fruit came with spiritual separation from God and with mortality and death. Call it sin if you wish, but I for one, am thankful that Adam and Eve made the choice they did so that I could gain a body and further progress.

Just by way of note: when he says the Lord has made it clear this is likely in reference to modern revelation on the topic.

your "prophet is simply wrong. God does not say that. he does not say, “eat this if you want to get kicked out of Edenn”. he says, “DO NOT EAT IT.”

15 The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it. 16 The Lord God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden 17 except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.

Further, to show it was not so simple as your alleged prophet would indicate, the punishment was more than just getting kicked out.

14 Then the Lord God said to the snake:

Because you have done this,

cursed are you

among all the animals, tame or wild;

On your belly you shall crawl,

and dust you shall eat

all the days of your life.

15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,

and between your offspring and hers;

They will strike at your head,

while you strike at their heel.

16 To the woman he said:

I will intensify your toil in childbearing;

in pain you shall bring forth children.

Yet your urge shall be for your husband,

and he shall rule over you.

17 To the man he said: Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat from it,

Cursed is the ground because of you!

In toil you shall eat its yield

all the days of your life.

18 Thorns and thistles it shall bear for you,

and you shall eat the grass of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow

you shall eat bread,

Until you return to the ground,

from which you were taken;

For you are dust,

and to dust you shall return."

Your alleged prophet is just wrong. And he should frankly be worried. It is not a good idea to misrepresent the Scriptures and lead people astray.

Have a Blessed Easter.

 

[Miriam1947]

YES,they are ,especially that romney is likely to be the rep candidate.never in my life,ive seen a deluge of mormon missionaries in our town lately.they were very persistent in entering our house,even if i told to leave us alone.One gal even asked us,if we have clothes to be laundered and they will do it.how low can they go,just to convert people or see to it that romney will win the election.btw,i am boycotting the pres election,will not vote for romney or obama!

Well, congratulations are in order. We have Obama for another 4 years.

Thank you so very much. /s

 

[mwok]

We believe Adam and Eve transgressed but they did not sin.

What, pray tell, would the LDS church consider to be a sin then?

 

[LDSfaqs]

The Mormon idea of pre-existence is not biblical nor is it Christian.

That is your opinion, and to LDS it’s a false one.
Mormons see the pre-mortal life from the Bible in many way’s from many scriptures.
While it’s not spelled out as well as latter-day revelation does, it’s in the Bible.

Mormons are not the only ones who have believed it’s Biblical either in history.

Some additional info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence

There are other scriptures such as speaking of the “hosts of heaven”, that speak on the “Sons of God shouting for Joy”, etc. etc. There is Lucifer and the hosts of heaven who followed him and were cast out, denied an opportunity to get bodies, the heavenly council, on and on. The Bible gives clear indication of the pre-mortality of spirits. Further, there are extra-biblical texts which were considered scripture by the Apostles, Christ, the early Church etc. which further indicates the pre-mortality of spirits. Some early Church Fathers taught the pre-mortality of spirits.

Basically, this doctrine is Biblical, and it is one of many doctrines lost and perverted by the Apostasy.

 

[TexanKnight]

That is your opinion, and to LDS it’s a false one.
Mormons see the pre-mortal life from the Bible in many way’s from many scriptures.
While it’s not spelled out as well as latter-day revelation does, it’s in the Bible.

Mormons are not the only ones who have believed it’s Biblical either in history.

That sounds a lot like my child saying, “dad, it can;t be wrong, lots of other kids are doing it”

Yes, it is a false doctrine.

Some additional info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence

There are other scriptures such as speaking of the “hosts of heaven”, that speak on the “Sons of God shouting for Joy”, etc. etc. There is Lucifer and the hosts of heaven who followed him and were cast out, denied an opportunity to get bodies, the heavenly council, on and on. The Bible gives clear indication of the pre-mortality of spirits. Further, there are extra-biblical texts which were considered scripture by the Apostles, Christ, the early Church etc. which further indicates the pre-mortality of spirits. Some early Church Fathers taught the pre-mortality of spirits.

Basically, this doctrine is Biblical, and it is one of many doctrines lost and perverted by the Apostasy.

Basically, it is NOT Biblical…and there WAS no Apostasy because the True Christ is not weak, cruel, or a liar.

 

[NewSeeker]

Basically, this doctrine is Biblical, and it is one of many doctrines lost and perverted by the Apostasy.

There was no Apostasy. Mormons have no evidence it occurred, save for a few verses twisted out context and the testimony of Joseph Smith - which is not credible in the slightest.