Another Mohammad - Aisha Question ---- FOR MUSLIMS

[adstrinity]

Meaning, I don’t want anybody else telling me what they think, what they know, or starting an argument by way of uncharitably baiting an answer.

–Alright, Mohammad married Aisha and she is said to be his only virgin wife. Fine.
–She was still a child who played with her toys and it is said that even Mohammad got in the spirit of things and played along with her.

At what point is it that they consumated their relationship (among popular belief and/or tradition)?

Do you know how bad this looks? A man who played with dolls with a girl who is young enough to be his daughter and then one day says, ‘We’re going to play a different game now’ or whatever he said? Ew Ew Ew Ew Ew. In 21st Century America, this is called child grooming, BUT, I will admit, the Koran was not written for 21st Century Americans, so, what am I missing in the culture or history? This sounds really really pedo-worthy…even if things didn’t happen until she was 12 or 13, at what point in the relationship was he a mentor and a provider only and then her lover? Is it said who made the first move? Can you even think of your prophet like this? (We typically acknowledge he married a virgin, but, we do not dwell on the details…)

This is a real question, not a baiting question. I am female. I am especially interested in those who converted TO Islam, but, I will gladly be informed by any Muslim.

Let me once again state, I do not wish to read any slanderous obnoxious comments from any non-Muslim or ex-Muslim…AT ALL!

 

[Reuben_J]

Meaning, I don’t want anybody else telling me what they think, what they know, or starting an argument by way of uncharitably baiting an answer.

–Alright, Mohammad married Aisha and she is said to be his only virgin wife. Fine.
–She was still a child who played with her toys and it is said that even Mohammad got in the spirit of things and played along with her.

At what point is it that they consumated their relationship (among popular belief and/or tradition)?

Do you know how bad this looks? A man who played with dolls with a girl who is young enough to be his daughter and then one day says, ‘We’re going to play a different game now’ or whatever he said? Ew Ew Ew Ew Ew. In 21st Century America, this is called child grooming, BUT, I will admit, the Koran was not written for 21st Century Americans, so, what am I missing in the culture or history? This sounds really really pedo-worthy…even if things didn’t happen until she was 12 or 13, at what point in the relationship was he a mentor and a provider only and then her lover? Is it said who made the first move? Can you even think of your prophet like this? (We typically acknowledge he married a virgin, but, we do not dwell on the details…)

This is a real question, not a baiting question. I am female. I am especially interested in those who converted TO Islam, but, I will gladly be informed by any Muslim.

Let me once again state, I do not wish to read any slanderous obnoxious comments from any non-Muslim or ex-Muslim…AT ALL!

Basically , **Islam allows sex with a nine year girl **in a proper marriage relationship based on the Koran, Hadith and action of Mohammad.

This is something for non-Muslims and Muslims alike to ponder about.

 

[Hadi]

No one can say for sure that he married her at 9…

• According to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of 15 was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least 15 in 624 CE and thus at least 13 when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.
• Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least 15 in 622 CE.
• Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least 12 in 622 CE.
• According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus 12 when Muhammad married at fifty-two.
• According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be **14 **to 21.
• According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or **18 **years old at that time. Thus, Aisha - if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH - was between **18 **to **20 **years old at the time of her marriage.
• According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud.Also in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation. So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.
• Tabaqat ibn Sa’d, 8:58; Ansab al-Ashraf, 1:410. Opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. Their marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-ghaba, 5:501)

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’m not Moslem, and I’ve got no intention of becoming Moslem. But I will say a few things.

First of all, I don’t think we’re going to make much ground attacking Islam on the grounds of the alleged age of Mohammed’s wife Aisha. If we’re going to argue with them, then it needs to be on the basis of who Christ was. And in that particular argument, I think Mary is going to be important. They hold her in high esteem, but the fact is that without her divine Son, she is nothing.

After all, Mary appeared at Fatima in 1917, a Portuguese village which by a chain of circumstances was named after Mohammed’s daughter, Fatima. Something greater than Fatima had come. In addition she appeared in Egypt, which is Moslem, for about 3 years from 1968 on, but over a church, and not a mosque. I believe that was a silent plea for peace between Egypt where the Holy Family had taken refuge, and Israel, from which they came. There was war in 1967, the year before and again in 1973, only a couple of years after she stopped appearing.

Secondly they take God seriously (or Allah as they call Him), much more so than the secular West does. I think this is one of the reasons the Christian God has let them be, so that at the very time post-Christian civilisation was becoming overconfident and decadent to boot, there would be a new challenge.

Thirdly they have no division of Religion and State. My old Protesant pastor’s opinion of the division of church-state in the West is that it came straight from the devil. All it does is give secular politicians the leading edge in ethical decisions. They’ll support the church when it suits them, and ignore it when in doesn’t. Yet in a country like Iran, the secular President needs the support of the clergy to hold power.

So I think God intends to use them, in one way or another, to discard this doctrine.

That’s why, in my opinion, whereas the West is militarily stronger (easily), the Moslems have most of the oil. I think God’s engineered it that way so that we cannot just ignore them.

So even though we’re Christian, and obviously believe God is the Trinity of Christian understanding, I think He’s using Islam for His own ends.

 

[Reuben_J]

The hadith is specific about the age nevetheless. Married at six, consummated at nine.

This is agreed by most Muslims today as the correct age. Muslims that I talked with have no problem with the age in question because it was the practice during Mohammad’s era.

God bless.

 

[adstrinity]

This thread is not about attacking Islam nor arguing with Moslems. It is exactly what I asked. The child grooming aspect was disturbing to me and I wanted to know more about it.

Reuben J, I will kindly ask you to not post in this thread again, no matter what slander is brought up against you or Christianity from here on out. Not even in reply to this post. If you keep saying he validated the marriage when Aisha was 9, that does not make it true. Stop saying such things…at least in this thread. I really want to know. The post by Hadi was very insightful, but, if there are any other views FROM MOSLEMS ONLY OR NON-AGRESSIVE KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE A DOG IN THIS RACE, I would like to know those as well.

Hadi, I am going to ask another question to you since yours is the only post on topic, would you please be so good as to define any non-English word there? What does Hadith mean and are the other places you mentioned geographical locations? Thank you.

 

[Hadi]

adstrinity,

Hadiths are alleged sayings of the Prophet and sometime his companions…they are the Oral tradition ,they were not written until more than 200 years after the Prophet.
there are probably more than 500,000 Hadiths recorded in hundreds of books. They are categorized depending on their transmission. single-transmitted and multi-transmitted. and also Hasan , Daaif , Sahih , Matrook and Mawdo’o which means sound, weak , accurate , abandoned and fabricated.

There are many schools each has its own criteria and judgment on Hadiths, Sunni schools (Shaafi, Hanbli, Hanfi and Malki) and also philosophical movements ( Mutazzilis (rationalists) , Ashaari , etc) and there are also Shias (Traditionalists (Usolis) and rationalist (non-Usoli))

While many groups in Islam are divided over Hadiths, The Quran is universally accepted to be the final authority over all maters.

 

[Hadi]

If one wanted to marry someone in Islam, the woman has her own decision to marry him or not…she is free to decide and no one can force her…

before her marriage to the Prophet, Aysha was engaged to Jubair , but when she and her family became Muslims , she was no longer engaged to him…after the Migartion (from Mecca to Madina) a woman (Khawlah, friend of Ayshah’s family) talked with the prophet about marrying Ayshia , and then they visited Abu baker house (Aysha’s father) and she agreed to his proposal of marrying her.

 

[inJESUS]

and she agreed to his proposal of marrying her.

can you post the hadith in which she agreed? unless you meant the hadith in which she did not answer and Muhammad said not answering =yes?

 

[inJESUS]

Do you know how bad this looks? A man who played with dolls with a girl who is young enough to be his daughter and then one day says, ‘We’re going to play a different game now’ or whatever he said? Ew Ew Ew Ew Ew. In 21st Century America, this is called child grooming

to understand it , you must understand the mentality behind it. It is accepted to thigh her and to sleep with her because she is his wife. So whether she is 6, 9, 14 or even 3 years old, she is cosidered his wife, his "halal ( something legal) and therefore what he does with a 35 years old can be done to a 9 year old *because *she is his wife.

This is the mentality behind those who accept it but there are many who can’t digest it within Muslims.

 

[adstrinity]

to understand it , you must understand the mentality behind it. It is accepted to thigh her and to sleep with her because she is his wife. So whether she is 6, 9, 14 or even 3 years old, she is cosidered his wife, his "halal ( something legal) and therefore what he does with a 35 years old can be done to a 9 year old *because *she is his wife.

This is the mentality behind those who accept it but there are many who can’t digest it within Muslims.

To thigh her?

But, okay, she’s his wife. Treat her like a wife, then, not somebody who plays with her toys with her…unless he turned that into foreplay…but, that’s not how the text reads.

 

[inJESUS]

To thigh her?

yes he used to thigh her, maybe because it was too much for her to handle at 6 years old so he used to “thigh” her.

But, okay, she’s his wife. Treat her like a wife, then, not somebody who plays with her toys with her…unless he turned that into foreplay…but, that’s not how the text reads.

 

[adstrinity]

yes he used to thigh her, maybe because it was too much for her to handle at 6 years old so he used to “thigh” her.

well am not sure if a 56 years old man wants a “wife” from a small kid and in what sense , and am not sure how an adult would treat a kid as a wife, but whatever he wanted was ok because she was his wife so playing, thiging, having intercourse, her cleaning his clothes full of semen, it doesn’t matter, after all these were her duties as a wife so a Muslim will not look at her as a small kid playing with dolls but as a wife whose duty is to be a wife.

 

[jakasaki]

We are also misinterpreting (or could be) – he might have played dolls and toys with her before when she was just a child, and then, after marriage treated her more like a wife. …Of course, this still begs the child rearing portion of this…or, did she live with her dad until the marriage was official and Uncle Mohammad came to visit?

The 12 to 21 window that Hadi gave is what I think Muslims have to attest. He (assuming Hadi is a he) said that 9 is not agreed upon. I would like to see the sources saying, “9”.

Cleaning his clothes full of semen…when is that mentioned?

Also, I’m not sure I understand “thighing”. PM me if it’s too indecent for the forum, please.

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it (water spots were still visible). (Book #4, Hadith #229)

Narrated Sulaiman bin Yasar:
I asked 'Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah’s Apostle and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible. " (Book #4, Hadith #231)

Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun:
I heard Sulaiman bin Yasar talking about the clothes soiled with semen. He said that 'Aisha had said, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah’s Apostle and he would go for the prayers while water spots were still visible on them. (Book #4, Hadith #232)

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them. (Book #4, Hadith #233)

 

[adstrinity]

Alright. Thank you jakasaki. Now that I know it’s not just something made to insult Moslems, in what context was this mentioned/why is it important we know this/what lesson acompanies these Hadiths?

 

[jakasaki]

Thighing is an act where a man takes his “manhood” and places it between the womans thighs to achieve his “release”.

That is why InJesus mentioned:

yes he used to thigh her, maybe because it was too much for her to handle at 6 years old so he used to “thigh” her.

Also, this practice was done to his other wives if they were under the month of menstruation.

 

[inJESUS]

We are also misinterpreting (or could be) – he might have played dolls and toys with her before when she was just a child, and then, after marriage treated her more like a wife. …Of course, this still begs the child rearing portion of this…or, did she live with her dad until the marriage was official and Uncle Mohammad came to visit?

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

The 12 to 21 window that Hadi gave is what I think Muslims have to attest. He (assuming Hadi is a he) said that 9 is not agreed upon. I would like to see the sources saying, “9”.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Cleaning his clothes full of semen…when is that mentioned?

Sahih Muslim Number 232.
Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated: I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them.

Also, I’m not sure I understand “thighing”. PM me if it’s too indecent for the forum, please.

i pm you.

 

[inJESUS]

Thank you Jakazaki

 

[jakasaki]

Alright. Thank you jakasaki. Now that I know it’s not just something made to insult Moslems, in what context was this mentioned/why is it important we know this/what lesson acompanies these Hadiths?

I supplied the whole verse for you review. Nothing edited from my end. I also supplied the hadith numbers for your review and search.

All hadiths I posted are from an islamic site which has the koran and hadiths.

As far as:

why is it important we know this/what lesson acompanies these Hadiths

 

[inJESUS]

Alright. Thank you jakasaki. Now that I know it’s not just something made to insult Moslems, in what context was this mentioned/why is it important we know this/what lesson acompanies these Hadiths?

they don’t have to have any lessons , and this is found in Islamic books where pages and pages are written about things without any weight in terms of lessons.