Another Mormon Question - Jesus as Savior?

[LittleDeb]

Oh, and btw, while you’re looking for that ONE verse in the Book of Mormon that shows a plurality of gods, you might also consider the following verses there, and do some honest exegesis of them:

Alma 11:
26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.
30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Ether 2:
7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.
8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fullness of his wrath should come upon them.

Thanks for these links. I am going to get out my BoM (which I keep on my “fiction” shelf in my bookcase) and read these in complete context. It will be interesting. I knew there were phrases in there like this but I was too tired lately to search.

I am still waiting for an LDS to explain the opening page of the BoM. The contradiction there was never so clear as when it was pointed out by an LDS member up-thread. If Jesus is eternal He can’t be created. If He is a demi-god then there isn’t one eternal God.

 

[zerinus]

I am still waiting for an LDS to explain the opening page of the BoM. The contradiction there was never so clear as when it was pointed out by an LDS member up-thread. If Jesus is eternal He can’t be created. If He is a demi-god then there isn’t one eternal God.

There are some passages of scripture that are inexplicable, for which an answer cannot be given. We simply do not have enough knowledge revealed to us to be able to answer them. We must accept them in faith, that they are true, even though we cannot understand them; and put our trust in God that some day He will give us enough knowledge to be able to understand them. These exist in the Bible just as much as they do in modern LDS scripture. How Jesus can be God, and at the same time have a beginning, is one of those paradoxes that exist in the Bible, not just in the Book of Mormon. The Bible tells us that Jesus is God (John 1:1). But it also tells us Jesus is a created being, and has a beginning (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14); and it also tells us that Jesus has a God over Him Whom He prays to, and Who is “greater than Him” (John 14:28; John 20:17). So how can Jesus be God, and still have a God above Him who is greater than Him and whom He prays to; and how can He be eternal (which is what His godhood implies), and at the same time have a “beginning” and be a “created being,” is a mystery that we must accept we cannot at the moment understand. If you can explain to me that paradox in the Bible, I will also explain to you the same paradox in the Book of Mormon. The answer is that there are certain things in scripture that we must accept on faith, even though we cannot always understand them. In the Old Testament the Lord has counselled:

Deuteronomy 29:

29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

The Book of Mormon also as a passage that expresses a similar sentiment:

Mosiah 4:

9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

It is not the purpose of religion to answer every unanswered question that we might have. The purpose of religion is to reveal to us all that we need to be saved—and ultimately, in every religion there comes a point that you must accept things on faith, without being able to provide a rational explanation for them. Mormonism is no different.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

How Jesus can be God, and at the same time have a beginning, is one of those paradoxes that exist in the Bible, not just in the Book of Mormon. The Bible tells us that Jesus is God (John 1:1). But it also tells us Jesus is a created being, and has a beginning (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14); and it also tells us that Jesus has a God over Him Whom He prays to, and Who is “greater than Him” (John 14:28; John 20:17). So how can Jesus be God, and still have a God above Him who is greater than Him and whom He prays to; and how can He be eternal (which is what His godhood implies), and at the same time have a “beginning” and be a “created being,” is a mystery that we must accept we cannot at the moment understand.

Seems to me, what we’re really talking about here is “interpretations” of Scripture. I agree that there are seeming paradoxes in Scripture. But, if a person attaches himself to the correct interpretations, through the Church that Jesus established, and gave His authority to, which includes the authority to interpret His sayings, and to record them for posterity, then there aren’t all that many problems.

Zerinus shows, by what he wrote above, the confusion that is so common among those sects which are separated from the True Church, and which have made a career out of teaching incorrect interpretations of Scripture, and even gone to the extent of writing NEW “scriptures,” as well as modifying the ones already in existence. These things Joseph, Jr did in his own short lifetime, and would undoubtedly have done more, if he hadn’t been killed by his irate neighbors.

The Mormon problems understanding the full context of Sacred Scripture flow mostly out of their separation from the True Church, rather than from any paradox supposedly contained in Scripture.

"“I believe that my theological position is biblical; and I believe that I am can defend that position convincingly through scriptural reasoning, analysis, and exegesis.”" Zerinus

Now, we are waiting for Zerinus’ “convincing” reasoning, analysis, and exegesis against the questions posed yesterday and before.

 

[Phil12123]

How Jesus can be God, and at the same time have a beginning, is one of those paradoxes that exist in the Bible, not just in the Book of Mormon. The Bible tells us that Jesus is God (John 1:1). But it also tells us Jesus is a created being, and has a beginning (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14); and it also tells us that Jesus has a God over Him Whom He prays to, and Who is “greater than Him” (John 14:28; John 20:17). So how can Jesus be God, and still have a God above Him who is greater than Him and whom He prays to; and how can He be eternal (which is what His godhood implies), and at the same time have a “beginning” and be a “created being,” is a mystery that we must accept we cannot at the moment understand. If you can explain to me that paradox in the Bible, I will also explain to you the same paradox in the Book of Mormon. The answer is that there are certain things in scripture that we must accept on faith, even though we cannot always understand them. In the Old Testament the Lord has counselled:

**You have presented Christians with a challenge before meeting the previous challenge we gave you. We are still waiting for your honest biblical exegesis of the many verses that simply state there is no God besides God, He knows of no other, etc. If the ONE God of the Bible knows of no other God, then Mormonism is false. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) are the ONE God, as taught by the Bible and the Book of Mormon, then present day Mormon theology is false. They are contradictory and irreconcilable and you cannot avoid that fact by simply saying it is a paradox that we can’t explain. You said you could defend your position “convincingly through scriptural reasoning, analysis, and exegesis,” Saying it is all a paradox does not do that.

Contrary to the paradox you mention, Christ did not have a beginning, so there is in fact no paradox in that regard. The two verses you mention (Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14) are, as you may know, the main ones used by JWs and other Arians to dispute the Deity of Christ by making Him into a creature of God. In context and with proper “scriptural reasoning, analysis, and exegesis” they can be explained and understood to be consistent with the other verses that show Christ is eternal (John 1:1; 8:58; etc.). Without going into that in detail now, I will instead wait for your “reasoning, analysis, and exegesis” of the verses I have already given you, both from the Bible and the Book of Mormon, if you can do it as claimed.

Peace**

 

[zerinus]

You have presented Christians with a challenge before meeting the previous challenge we gave you. We are still waiting for your honest biblical exegesis of the many verses that simply state there is no God besides God, He knows of no other, etc. If the ONE God of the Bible knows of no other God, then Mormonism is false. . . .

This is a perennial question that is asked from LDS all the time, to which the answer has been given many times before. I found this answer among my files which was given to this question asked by a poster calling himself “Catholic Dude” many months ago. The original thread, called “Quick LDS question” started by this poster, now seems to have been deleted, so I couldn’t link to it. But his original question and my reply to it is as follows, which is also the answer to your question:

zerinus

Continued in next post /. . .

 

[zerinus]

. . . / Continued
Catholic Dude:

I posted this on another forum, but got no responses, (since I was bored from the Catholic section I decided to come here) anyway my question is how do LDS explain Isaiah 43:10-

Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

How do they explain this especially in light of eternal progression?

If you read that verse in its context, it becomes clear that it refers to the idolatrous practices of the ancients, which the Israelites were prone to follow. When it says that “there is no other gods before me,” it means no other gods who should form the object of our worship, such as the idols of the ancients used to be. It has no application to the LDS doctrine of deification of man. Here is the context. I will quote it with explanatory comments so you get the meaning better:

Isaiah 43:

8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.

This addressed the house of Israel, who although they had “eyes and ears to see and hear,” they failed to see the obvious truth that idols are nothing, and there is only one God who should be worshipped.

9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

Here the Lord challenges the idols of the Gentiles to demonstrate their divinity if they can by “showing us the former things,” meaning to declare the future as God had been able to do in the past.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Here the Lord is contrasting Himself with the Idols of the nations, and saying effectively that He is the only true God who is worthy of our worship. The idols are nothing, and they shouldn’t be worshipped.

11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

It was the one true God who always “saved” Israel from the power of their enemies. When they became idolatrous, and prayed to their idols, their idols could not deliver them. But when they repented, and worshipped the true God, and cried to Him for deliverance, He saved them. Again, the reference is clearly to pagan idols.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

The Lord saved Israel from the power of their enemies when they weren’t worshipping any idols. Therefore they are witnesses that He is their true God who can save them.

13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

A continuation of the same thing. The true God is the only sovereign Deity who has overall power, and there is no other god (idols) who has greater power than Him.

The LDS doctrine of the deification of man and plurality of gods does not teach that there is more than one God who should be the object of our worship, or whom we should rely on for our salvation; therefore the Isaiah Quote you had given has no bearing on the that doctrine we teach. What we teach simply defines the highest degree of salvation that man can obtain in the kingdom of God. I has no relevance to what Isaiah is talking about.

There are lots of other passages in Isaiah where the same doctrine is taught, where it is made even clearer. See Isaiah 40:18-25; 41:4-7, 21-24; 42:8, 9, 17; 43:10-13; 44:6-13; 45:5-7, 16, 18-22; 46:1-9; 48:3-6.

You will find them all listed here:

scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=See+Isaiah+40%3A18-25%3B+41%3A4-7%2C+21-24%3B+42%3A8%2C+9%2C+17%3B+43%3A10-13%3B+44%3A6-13%3B+45%3A5-7%2C+16%2C+18-22%3B+46%3A1-9%3B+48%3A3-6.&do=Search

zerinus

 

[Phil12123]

If you read that verse in its context, it becomes clear that it refers to the idolatrous practices of the ancients, which the Israelites were prone to follow. When it says that “there is no other gods before me,” it means no other gods who should form the object of our worship, such as the idols of the ancients used to be. It has no application to the LDS doctrine of deification of man. Here is the context. I will quote it with explanatory comments so you get the meaning better:

Isaiah 43:

8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.

This addressed the house of Israel, who although they had “eyes and ears to see and hear,” they failed to see the obvious truth that idols are nothing, and there is only one God who should be worshipped.

9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.

Here the Lord challenges the idols of the Gentiles to demonstrate their divinity if they can by “showing us the former things,” meaning to declare the future as God had been able to do in the past.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Here the Lord is contrasting Himself with the Idols of the nations, and saying effectively that He is the only true God who is worthy of our worship. The idols are nothing, and they shouldn’t be worshipped.

11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

It was the one true God who always “saved” Israel from the power of their enemies. When they became idolatrous, and prayed to their idols, their idols could not deliver them. But when they repented, and worshipped the true God, and cried to Him for deliverance, He saved them. Again, the reference is clearly to pagan idols.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

The Lord saved Israel from the power of their enemies when they weren’t worshipping any idols. Therefore they are witnesses that He is their true God who can save them.

13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

A continuation of the same thing. The true God is the only sovereign Deity who has overall power, and there is no other god (idols) who has greater power than Him.

The LDS doctrine of the deification of man and plurality of gods does not teach that there is more than one God who should be the object of our worship, or whom we should rely on for our salvation; therefore the Isaiah Quote you had given has no bearing on that doctrine we teach. What we teach simply defines the highest degree of salvation that man can obtain in the kingdom of God. It has no relevance to what Isaiah is talking about.

zerinus

So, correct me if I am wrong, didn’t Joseph Smith teach that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are THREE (3) Gods, rather than a Trinity of ONE God in Three Persons? If so, which of those THREE Gods is the ONE God referred to in Isaiah? And which of those THREE doesn’t know about the other TWO, according to Isaiah 44:8 (“Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any”). If the One God says there is no God beside me, and you want that to mean, only HE is to be worshipped, then which of the THREE (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is NOT to be worshipped?

 

[zerinus]

So, correct me if I am wrong, didn’t Joseph Smith teach that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are THREE (3) Gods, rather than a Trinity of ONE God in Three Persons? If so, which of those THREE Gods is the ONE God referred to in Isaiah? And which of those THREE doesn’t know about the other TWO, according to Isaiah 44:8 (“Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any”). If the One God says there is no God beside me, and you want that to mean, only HE is to be worshipped, then which of the THREE (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is NOT to be worshipped?

Your answer has been given. Nothing further need be added. Read it all again carefully, and you will have your answer.

zerinus

 

[Phil12123]

Your answer has been given. Nothing further need be added. Read it all again carefully, and you will have your answer.

zerinus

Wrong. There is no mention in your post of what Joseph Smith taught or mention of “Father” or “Son” or “Holy Spirit” or “Holy Ghost” so although you speak of “only one God to be worshipped” and “the Lord…is the only true God who is worthy of our worship,” you do not identify Him. And if you believe they are THREE separate Gods, you have not answered my question. I suspect that your desire that “nothing further…be added” is simply to conceal your polytheistic view of God(s). Again, correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Phil12123]

**You may want to review these items:

s185.photobucket.com/albums/x291/Phil12123/?action=view&current=HoC6-474.jpg

s185.photobucket.com/albums/x291/Phil12123/?action=view&current=HoC6-474a.jpg

s185.photobucket.com/albums/x291/Phil12123/?action=view&current=JoDpg5a.jpg

Peace**

 

[Allweather]

If you read that verse in its context, it becomes clear that it refers to the idolatrous practices of the ancients, which the Israelites were prone to follow. **When it says **that “there is no other gods before me,” it means no other gods who should form the object of our worship, such as the idols of the ancients used to be. It has no application to the LDS doctrine of deification of man. Here is the context. I will quote it with explanatory comments so you get the meaning better:

I have bolded a few of the significant words in Zerinus’ post. These are significant because they show that this is an interpretation of Scripture. It is Zerinus’ interpretation. It is an erroneous interpretation, because it arrives at erroneous conclusions about the nature of God.

It always comes down to interpretations. Interpretations of Scripture that lead away from unity with the Church that Jesus established upon the Apostles by giving them His own authority, are erroneous interpretations.

The LDS doctrine of the deification of man and plurality of gods does not teach that there is more than one God who should be the object of our worship, or whom we should rely on for our salvation; therefore the Isaiah Quote you had given has no bearing on the that doctrine we teach. What we teach simply defines the highest degree of salvation that man can obtain in the kingdom of God. I has no relevance to what Isaiah is talking about.

Saying this, Zerinus avoids the main issue, which is that Mormon doctrine teaches that good Mormons may become gods with power equal to the one they worship. Whether you claim to worship this god or that god is really beside the point. Monotheism is a central theme of God’s revelation of Himself to the Hebrew people, and a central theme of the Christian religion which flows out of the Jewish religion. A religion which has a theology of “deification of man” such that man doesn’t merely share in the divinity of Christ (as Christians teach) but actually becomes an independent god with power like God’s, such a religion is a blasphemous caricature of Christianity.

But, then, it is all an illusion, as the Mormons will eventually find out.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Allweather, that last post speaks to an important aspect for me. Maybe few people think about this sort of thing, but I do. Perhaps I am just weird that way, but that’s just “me”. It’s “genetic”. (My Dad has it too!)

When I think of God, I think of a being that is God of EVERYTHING. Not God of our planet Earth, with some other God for another planet somewhere else. If that were so, there would be multiple Gods just for our own solar system. And billions of Gods for the Universe. That’s just silly. The universe was created by committee? I don’t think so! And anyone who has ever seen a creation that came from a committee would immediately agree!

There is ONE God. ONE. A SINGLE God. Not a God for Here and another God for There & pretty soon you are rivaling the Greek Pantheon, or more. And I would expect, in the hypothetical situation (since I never expect to experience this in my lifetime) that were we to travel to another inhabited planet & if the inhabitants there worshiped a God, it would be our God. Why? Because when our world and our little part of the Universe was formed, so was the other world, distantly away. By the same God.

You don’t have to be a genius to reject Mormonism, you just have to have common sense. Since Mormons hide a lot of their stuff, you also have to ask a lot of pointed questions & keep asking when they give non-responsive answers. That may be very hard to do when people are giving you all these warm-feelies about “Family is Forever” but you have to do it.

 

[LittleDeb]

Your answer has been given. Nothing further need be added. Read it all again carefully, and you will have your answer.

zerinus

That’s a dodge. I have read it multiple times and still wonder how the god you worship knows of no other god, but that they exist anyway.

I know you worship Heavenly Father and not the “demi-god” you call Jesus, but according then to your explanation you don’t worship Jesus because He is an idol. In your explanation when it says “gods” you put (idols) after it. Do you mean to equate Jesus with an idol?

Your own BoM says that Jesus is the ETERNAL GOD. So who is He? An eternal God you worship or a demi-god (idol) you don’t? It also says that He is “the” Eternal God. Doesn’t “the” mean one and only? It doesn’t say Jesus is “an” eternal god. So who is He to the LDS?

 

[zerinus]

Wrong. There is no mention in your post of what Joseph Smith taught or mention of “Father” or “Son” or “Holy Spirit” or “Holy Ghost” so although you speak of “only one God to be worshipped” and “the Lord…is the only true God who is worthy of our worship,” you do not identify Him. And if you believe they are THREE separate Gods, you have not answered my question. I suspect that your desire that “nothing further…be added” is simply to conceal your polytheistic view of God(s). Again, correct me if I’m wrong.

This is trash. This kind of trash will get you nowhere. Your question was how do we account for the Isaiah passages affirming the existence of one true God, and I explained it to you. Now you are trying to shift your ground to something else.

We believe that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct and separate personages. We believe that the Father is the one Supreme Being Whom we, the gods, and the angels in heaven worship. He is the God whom Jesus worships; and He is the God whom Jesus commanded us to worship—as per the scriptural references already given. This is what is taught in LDS scripture:

Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Your own BoM says that Jesus is the ETERNAL GOD. So who is He? An eternal God you worship or a demi-god (idol) you don’t? It also says that He is “the” Eternal God. Doesn’t “the” mean one and only? It doesn’t say Jesus is “an” eternal god. So who is He to the LDS?

Didn’t you read my reply to your original question in post #124 above?

zerinus

 

[LittleDeb]

Didn’t you read my reply to your original question in post #124 above?

zerinus

Yes, and it was a dodge too. I asked you to explain the one passage in the opening page of the BoM. Your answer was that it was inexplicable. That is a ridiculous answer. At least make an attempt! Even things the Catholic Church refers to as ‘mysteries’ are always explained on some level.

Jesus is “the ETERNAL GOD.” Three words to define, that’s it.

 

[zerinus]

Yes, and it was a dodge too. I asked you to explain the one passage in the opening page of the BoM. Your answer was that it was inexplicable. That is a ridiculous answer. At least make an attempt! Even things the Catholic Church refers to as ‘mysteries’ are always explained on some level.

Jesus is “the ETERNAL GOD.” Three words to define, that’s it.

I suppose if you had been a member of the LDS Chruch for 34 years and hadn’t know what is in the first page of the Book of Mormon, then I shouldn’t expect anything better than that from you.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

We believe that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct and separate personages. We believe that the Father is the one Supreme Being Whom we, the gods, and the angels in heaven worship. He is the God whom Jesus worships; and He is the God whom Jesus commanded us to worship—as per the scriptural references already given. This is what is taught in LDS scripture: Zerinus

Again, Zerinus, with all due respect to your “modern scriptures,” they are of no use to you here. Christians do not recognize them.

In another place, you claimed that your doctrines are “Biblical” and that you can convincingly present your Mormon position with Scripture.

I see that you are stating the true doctrine above, which is that Mormons believe in separate gods, beginning with the Mormon trinity, which holds that the Mormon father, the Mormon son, and the Mormon holy spirit are separate gods. But I am not seeing any Biblical support for this idea in what you write. Your “modern scripture” verse might as well come out of Amazing Science Fiction Magazine for all it is worth here.

 

[Allweather]

I suppose if you had been a member of the LDS Chruch for 34 years and hadn’t know what is in the first page of the Book of Mormon, then I shouldn’t expect anything better than that from you.

zerinus

Yes, there it is on the title page of my fiance’s 1981 version of the Book of Mormon: “…Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.”

It appears that friend Zerinus prefers dancing and kicking up dust rather than presenting actual “convincing” arguments. Let’s see, how did Zerinus put it? Oh, yes, here it is:

"“I believe that my theological position is biblical; and I believe that I am can defend that position convincingly through scriptural reasoning, analysis, and exegesis.”" Zerinus

The thrust of his “exegesis” appears to be nothing more than an attempt to disprove the orthodox trinitarian position (by means of cherry-picked Bible verses), so that he can set up his own heterodox interpretations which arrive at the three-beings-in-the-Mormon-godhead position.

Not very convincing.

Rather than simply accept what Christians have always understood the totality of Scripture and Tradition to teach regarding the unity of God, Zerinus and the Mormons prefer to work feverishly in vain attempts at re-interpreting Scripture (as well as writing new, improved scriptures) in order to make their prophet’s odd ramblings fit.

 

[zerinus]

Again, Zerinus, with all due respect to your “modern scriptures,” they are of no use to you here. Christians do not recognize them.

Then here some more of what the Lord has revealed in modern LDS scripture:

Ether 2:

15 . . . for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord.

I believe that you are rapidly approaching that threshold. Your responses to me are frankly pathetic, coming from a grown up individual like you; and show that you have no desire to know the truth. Therefore know that from hence forth I will not be spending much time reading your posts, nor replying to them.

Au revoir
Have a nice day

zerinus